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Have followed this thread for quite a while now and I have to say, interesting tactics! However, I just had a quick thought about this weak-bait-unit problem...it is possible to carry a unit and as many ICs attached as you want in a vehicle, if I'm right.

So, theoretically, you could try and drive your Land Raider all the way in perfect position, pop smoke and then move THREE units out of that transport - a normal unit and two ICs - each charging their own unit! After disembarking out of a standing Land Raider you get your 6" movement and 6" charge, maybe even d6" running distance of your guys have fleet. You should reach many possible targets with that. Against guard, most ICs should do fairly well even when they're alone, shouldn't they? And even if one of the three units accidentally forces the guard unit it is fighting into retreat, you have hopefully bound two other units in CC that can't fire at your vulnerable guys standing in the open.

What do you think?

(I personally have fought against IG only on a small point level with vanilla marines, which means there wasn't that much firepower around and my tacs weren't really CC overkill either, so this is just a theory)

You don't beat gaurd.

there awsome!!

well sometimes you do

Caffran9 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:What massive buff? They are slightly harder than their 3rd edition selves, which is what they still play like. Get in close and murderize 'em its whats for breakfast.

Except that they now have options that grant them high mobility, something they've never had before. This is an extremely potent asset in 5th edition, and it alters the potential and threat range/threat type of the army in a big way. They're only about 1/2 like 3rd edition Guard at this point.

do you consider the near universal access to dedicated transports part of that high mobility? or were you speaking of the addition of the Vendettas/Valkyries?

Probly both.

as for killing tactics, Get in close with as many bolters as possible. If you can take termies do so. multi charge as much as possible. You can also stay at the 24 inch mark and reply their las with bolter fire, starting with the CCS then down to PCS and infantry squads. Yes I know BT is a melee army, but the closer you get to a guard force the more trouble your in as you have probly experianced.

my force suggestion would be

3 tac squads, 3 regular land raiders, your shootyest HQ, and a squad of termies if you can take them.

Hhmm this has been an interesting thread. I guess I never knew some of these concerns existed cause with our large group of player( somewhere around 30-40 at any given time) I've never had the problems of killing guard because of their stationary nature. Well at least till apocalypse games when they're that much further unfortunately. The IG players here are mostly just frustrated with middle to bottom rankings. The toughest armies here include a corsair tank eldar army with seer council, yriel etc, orks, black templars, and my black legion. Maybe our IG guys just don't have the tactics down with the new codex but normally unless they get amazing rolls they're dead by end of 2 or 3. Tank shock is a beautiful thing. Augustus you definitely gave a new way to think about the charge, very nice. The big thing here is swarm and fast hitting mech army. This gave me some food for thought with potential IG opponents.

WarmasterScott wrote:Hhmm this has been an interesting thread. I guess I never knew some of these concerns existed cause with our large group of player( somewhere around 30-40 at any given time) I've never had the problems of killing guard because of their stationary nature.

They're playing Old IG, not New IG. New IG is one of the most mobile armies out there with 90% of the firepower of a static gunline.

Maybe our IG guys just don't have the tactics down with the new codex but normally unless they get amazing rolls they're dead by end of 2 or 3.

Yeah, I'm willing to bet they're playing 4th ed armies + Valkyries and wondering why they're not doing well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Augustus wrote:

Willyd has already mentioned this, but the 2" coherency plus mandatory pile-in rules means that unless you're assaulting the very, very last guy in a line that itself is basically stretched to 2" max coherency, the Guard player is going to be based up against the first two models in the string meaning, at minimum, 3 BT models are going to be in the combat.

3 BT are going to kill 3-4 Guardsmen, forcing leadership at 4-5, possibly 5-6 if the IG get lucky and take one out.

Call the 'average' leadership test 5, meaning that this formation succeeds 10/36 times, or 24% of the time, and I don't think it's a very viable strategy even when perfectly executed.

Well I know that for sure 4 of the 8 guys who play IG here have the new codex. I find that they rely alot on basilisks, russ tanks, etc alot. Then they arm up with a ton of lascanons. But our ork main guy(I call him this cause he's kinda an icon at the club) eats this alive with number and coming off the different edges with the one hq. My landraider and oblits are my solid answer to the tanks( and have yet to fail me). The eldar guy just uses his lances and singing spear to shred tanks. I guess it lends to strategy and skill more then just the codex. To the people who think the IG are op I would most certainly love to play yall cause it should be fun as hell. Just curious but what pt cost do some of yall play at? We sit around 1850. That may have something to do with what people are facing and such. I really wanna play against some new solid competition.

WarmasterScott wrote:Well I know that for sure 4 of the 8 guys who play IG here have the new codex. I find that they rely alot on basilisks, russ tanks, etc alot. Then they arm up with a ton of lascanons. But our ork main guy(I call him this cause he's kinda an icon at the club) eats this alive with number and coming off the different edges with the one hq. My landraider and oblits are my solid answer to the tanks( and have yet to fail me). The eldar guy just uses his lances and singing spear to shred tanks. I guess it lends to strategy and skill more then just the codex. To the people who think the IG are op I would most certainly love to play yall cause it should be fun as hell. Just curious but what pt cost do some of yall play at? We sit around 1850. That may have something to do with what people are facing and such. I really wanna play against some new solid competition.

Black Templars have an amazing assault termies squads that rerol like no other led by a landraider that chews up almost anything.. I mean anything!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:

WarmasterScott wrote:Well I know that for sure 4 of the 8 guys who play IG here have the new codex. I find that they rely alot on basilisks, russ tanks, etc alot. Then they arm up with a ton of lascanons. But our ork main guy(I call him this cause he's kinda an icon at the club) eats this alive with number and coming off the different edges with the one hq. My landraider and oblits are my solid answer to the tanks( and have yet to fail me). The eldar guy just uses his lances and singing spear to shred tanks. I guess it lends to strategy and skill more then just the codex. To the people who think the IG are op I would most certainly love to play yall cause it should be fun as hell. Just curious but what pt cost do some of yall play at? We sit around 1850. That may have something to do with what people are facing and such. I really wanna play against some new solid competition.

why the sad face?

WarmasterScott wrote:Well I know that for sure 4 of the 8 guys who play IG here have the new codex.

They have the new codex....

I find that they rely alot on basilisks, russ tanks, etc alot. Then they arm up with a ton of lascanons.

But they haven't implemented it. This is a 4th ed list. When your friends begin using the new options made possible with the new codex, they'll begin to flatten everybody.

For example, that Ork player, do you think he'd do as well if your friends traded in all their Basilisks for Valkyries with missile pods? Suddenly you've got 6 skimmers moving 12" and shooting 12 large blast templates into his horde, and he hits them in close combat on 6's.

Russes + Basilisks + Guyspam = fail and your buddies just haven't figured out how to play their codex in the new edition.

sourclams wrote:

WarmasterScott wrote:Well I know that for sure 4 of the 8 guys who play IG here have the new codex.

They have the new codex....

I find that they rely alot on basilisks, russ tanks, etc alot. Then they arm up with a ton of lascanons.

But they haven't implemented it. This is a 4th ed list. When your friends begin using the new options made possible with the new codex, they'll begin to flatten everybody.

For example, that Ork player, do you think he'd do as well if your friends traded in all their Basilisks for Valkyries with missile pods? Suddenly you've got 6 skimmers moving 12" and shooting 12 large blast templates into his horde, and he hits them in close combat on 6's.

Russes + Basilisks + Guyspam = fail and your buddies just haven't figured out how to play their codex in the new edition.

lol hhhmm whats the str of the valks attacks? and whats their armor? I really wanna see one of these lists to play against it. I am definitely gonna raz em as why they haven't updated. How can they not utilize stuff like this. Hard to say what the ork guy would do. He's a whilly one. He almost never comes with the same army lists for tournies anyway. I'm sure he could find a way to make his greenies crunch some IG. If more players shifter to mech armies it would definitely shift the hordes to have to find new tactics. I wonder what myself and the eldar guy would need to change(if needed) to stay on top if the group had an influx of new IG.

Ive only had to play guard twice so far, so im not an ace at beating them, but so far ive played them twice and have managed 2 wins (only just though)

once was KP, once was triple objective.
(KP you should win easily, since it doesent come down to points at the end )

I play BA, which, in a quick sentance, they are more combat orientated than basic marines, and a fething lot more points at times.

Ive found that the easiest way to beat them (or stop me from being blown to pieces all game)
Is to go for multiple assaults, and use a unit as a distraction, something that would cause them to single it out as a target, rather than one of your valued units.
This can be anything from a dreadnought to a vindi (both get alot of attention)


Units ive found that work well:

Land raiders - Crusaders have a nice edge to them, simply for thier firepower and ability to not die after only 2 turns

Assault termies - Claw termies thrown in a LR make life easy, however, they rely on only that 2+ save to keep them alive.
Hammer and storms last alot longer as stray lascannons dont kill them as easily

Guard tend to really struggle with alot of terminators.
They may have a ton of weapons capable of killing them, but lasguns arent really up to it, even if its over 100 shots.

Not sure on limitations in the templar dex, but i would try either 3 units of assault termies in crusaders (for 2,000 points)

at 1,500 cut that down to 2.

Im limited to 5 termies per unit (i hate it) if you can take more, then pack the raiders full.
a chappy is a nice edge to a unit of hammers, giving them that little extra push.

Use the raiders as line breaker, push your way into a flank of his army (or kamakazi the center, your choice)
Unload the termies and rush in.
Yes, they will die, but everything in the game does at some point.
If your going for KP then the termies will do you proud, since getting the KP's from a 2+ save thats allmost allways in combat isnt easy.

with the rest of your points go for meq units, unit size is your choice (or restriction depending on the BT dex)
Keep the rhino's behind the raiders to keep them alive, and if needed, send in some basic marines aswell.

JD21290 wrote:Ive only had to play guard twice so far, so im not an ace at beating them, but so far ive played them twice and have managed 2 wins (only just though)

once was KP, once was triple objective.
(KP you should win easily, since it doesent come down to points at the end )

I play BA, which, in a quick sentance, they are more combat orientated than basic marines, and a fething lot more points at times.

Ive found that the easiest way to beat them (or stop me from being blown to pieces all game)
Is to go for multiple assaults, and use a unit as a distraction, something that would cause them to single it out as a target, rather than one of your valued units.
This can be anything from a dreadnought to a vindi (both get alot of attention)


Units ive found that work well:

Land raiders - Crusaders have a nice edge to them, simply for thier firepower and ability to not die after only 2 turns

Assault termies - Claw termies thrown in a LR make life easy, however, they rely on only that 2+ save to keep them alive.
Hammer and storms last alot longer as stray lascannons dont kill them as easily

Guard tend to really struggle with alot of terminators.
They may have a ton of weapons capable of killing them, but lasguns arent really up to it, even if its over 100 shots.

Not sure on limitations in the templar dex, but i would try either 3 units of assault termies in crusaders (for 2,000 points)

at 1,500 cut that down to 2.

Im limited to 5 termies per unit (i hate it) if you can take more, then pack the raiders full.
a chappy is a nice edge to a unit of hammers, giving them that little extra push.

Use the raiders as line breaker, push your way into a flank of his army (or kamakazi the center, your choice)
Unload the termies and rush in.
Yes, they will die, but everything in the game does at some point.
If your going for KP then the termies will do you proud, since getting the KP's from a 2+ save thats allmost allways in combat isnt easy.

with the rest of your points go for meq units, unit size is your choice (or restriction depending on the BT dex)
Keep the rhino's behind the raiders to keep them alive, and if needed, send in some basic marines aswell.

and thats assuming you can get to cc.. because with earlier posts it was stated that the valks are hard to pin in with 12 in movement. The guys I've played I tend to pin them between the tanks(rhinos, land raider, vindicator etc) and the oblits, while thats going on is when my termies get in and slaughter things..

Im actually yet to find valks a problem.
Saying that though, i do somewhat overuse lascannons in my army, meaning thier life expectancy drops alot.

At the cost of a ramp it may be worth taking a normal raider.
2 TL las could put pay to a valk early on, while still doing its transport job.

Eh I haven't had a prob yet with ig but posters have said that the new codex should make em monsters. Master of the Forge says try and run from me and my 72 inch shot range, boy!

Playing an IG army isn't as easy as it looks...there IS a learning curve with them and it takes skill to make the entire army work cohesively.....

Once the player knows how to use the army as a whole however, the IG can handle anyone, as IG veterans can attest...

freddieyu1 wrote:Playing an IG army isn't as easy as it looks...there IS a learning curve with them and it takes skill to make the entire army work cohesively.....

Once the player knows how to use the army as a whole however, the IG can handle anyone, as IG veterans can attest...

As can most veterans of any army.. even tau blah blah blah.. Idc what the codexes say until I see one of these amazing IG armies I will still lump them in the lower tiered armies like tau, necrons and dark eldar

JD21290 wrote:Ive only had to play guard twice so far, so im not an ace at beating them, but so far ive played them twice and have managed 2 wins (only just though)

once was KP, once was triple objective.
(KP you should win easily, since it doesent come down to points at the end )

I play BA, which, in a quick sentance, they are more combat orientated than basic marines, and a fething lot more points at times.

Ive found that the easiest way to beat them (or stop me from being blown to pieces all game)
Is to go for multiple assaults, and use a unit as a distraction, something that would cause them to single it out as a target, rather than one of your valued units.
This can be anything from a dreadnought to a vindi (both get alot of attention)


Units ive found that work well:

Land raiders - Crusaders have a nice edge to them, simply for thier firepower and ability to not die after only 2 turns

Assault termies - Claw termies thrown in a LR make life easy, however, they rely on only that 2+ save to keep them alive.
Hammer and storms last alot longer as stray lascannons dont kill them as easily

Guard tend to really struggle with alot of terminators.
They may have a ton of weapons capable of killing them, but lasguns arent really up to it, even if its over 100 shots.

Not sure on limitations in the templar dex, but i would try either 3 units of assault termies in crusaders (for 2,000 points)

at 1,500 cut that down to 2.

Im limited to 5 termies per unit (i hate it) if you can take more, then pack the raiders full.
a chappy is a nice edge to a unit of hammers, giving them that little extra push.

Modern guard has absolutelly no problem killing terminators. 1 round of shooting from a Demolisher or Executioner with plasma sponsons will kill 5 terminators without a problem.

Assault terminators with SS are a diferent matter but there are other ways to deal with those.

JD21290 wrote:
Use the raiders as line breaker, push your way into a flank of his army (or kamakazi the center, your choice)
Unload the termies and rush in.
Yes, they will die, but everything in the game does at some point.
If your going for KP then the termies will do you proud, since getting the KP's from a 2+ save thats allmost allways in combat isnt easy.

with the rest of your points go for meq units, unit size is your choice (or restriction depending on the BT dex)
Keep the rhino's behind the raiders to keep them alive, and if needed, send in some basic marines aswell.

If you do this when you don't have first turn against a decent IG army / player, then you are almost always guaranteed to loose half your army on the first turn.

WarmasterScott wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:Playing an IG army isn't as easy as it looks...there IS a learning curve with them and it takes skill to make the entire army work cohesively.....

Once the player knows how to use the army as a whole however, the IG can handle anyone, as IG veterans can attest...

As can most veterans of any army.. even tau blah blah blah.. Idc what the codexes say until I see one of these amazing IG armies I will still lump them in the lower tiered armies like tau, necrons and dark eldar

Ah you are in the minority then.....

Anyway, what I meant is that the IG is NOT a beginner's army and it has a steeper learning curve than others (but not the steepest i would agree!!!)....and from what I have read so far some IG lists have made it to the hard boyz finals, which speaks for itself on the competitiveness of the new dex....and BTW dark eldar is NOT in the lower tier in terms of competitiveness, but possibly lower tier in terms of the quality of the models (understandably, they are 11 years old!!!)...

freddieyu1 wrote:

WarmasterScott wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:Playing an IG army isn't as easy as it looks...there IS a learning curve with them and it takes skill to make the entire army work cohesively.....

Once the player knows how to use the army as a whole however, the IG can handle anyone, as IG veterans can attest...

As can most veterans of any army.. even tau blah blah blah.. Idc what the codexes say until I see one of these amazing IG armies I will still lump them in the lower tiered armies like tau, necrons and dark eldar

Ah you are in the minority then.....

Anyway, what I meant is that the IG is NOT a beginner's army and it has a steeper learning curve than others (but not the steepest i would agree!!!)....and from what I have read so far some IG lists have made it to the hard boyz finals, which speaks for itself on the competitiveness of the new dex....and BTW dark eldar is NOT in the lower tier in terms of competitiveness, but possibly lower tier in terms of the quality of the models (understandably, they are 11 years old!!!)...

Hey don't me wrong my opinion can be changed. I just wanna play a good IG army. This thread has me buggin my IG buddies to step up to what yall say they can do.

Tell them to play this at 2k:

Company Command Squad with Astropath, 3x melta
3x Manticores
6 Vendettas
2+ IG Vets with 3x melta
4+ Chimeras with multilaser, Hull Heavy flamer, IG Vets with 3x melta or 3x flamer
3 Devil Dogs with hull heavy flamer

3d3 S10 Ord L. blasts that ignore cover
18 TL lascannons on a fast skimmer that can outflank
21 BS4 melta guns OR flamers with the ability to move and disembark 12+2 inches
3 move-and-shoot multimelta blasts on fast tanks

That's 16 AV12 vehicles capable of killing armor, MCs, elite troops, or massed troops (although the Vendettas lose out somewhat against massed troops). If they run a list like this against the opponents you're describing, they will kick ass all day.

"Company Command Squad with Astropath, 3x melta
3x Manticores
6 Vendettas
2+ IG Vets with 3x melta
4+ Chimeras with multilaser, Hull Heavy flamer, IG Vets with 3x melta or 3x flamer
3 Devil Dogs with hull heavy flamer "

okay, don't yell, i'm just curious. you aren't required to have PCS with the troop slots?

Not with vets

sourclams wrote:Tell them to play this at 2k:

Company Command Squad with Astropath, 3x melta
3x Manticores
6 Vendettas
2+ IG Vets with 3x melta
4+ Chimeras with multilaser, Hull Heavy flamer, IG Vets with 3x melta or 3x flamer
3 Devil Dogs with hull heavy flamer

3d3 S10 Ord L. blasts that ignore cover
18 TL lascannons on a fast skimmer that can outflank
21 BS4 melta guns OR flamers with the ability to move and disembark 12+2 inches
3 move-and-shoot multimelta blasts on fast tanks

That's 16 AV12 vehicles capable of killing armor, MCs, elite troops, or massed troops (although the Vendettas lose out somewhat against massed troops). If they run a list like this against the opponents you're describing, they will kick ass all day.

I will and I'm excited to see this list in action.

Given the original scenario proposed in this thread, I'm not sure why you would even get out of your LRC. The hurricane bolters will do a much better job of clearing away 10-man squads then your assault will.

In general, against the infantry-spam guard army using multiple squads (as opposed to giant blob-squads) close-range fire is going to be more effective then assault. Just treat them like Orks -- flamers and more flamers, and stay in your vehicles as long as humanly possible. In particular, concentrate on making each squad take a morale check -- at only LD8, they're going to fail a few if they're broken out into multiple squads.

Besides that, just zap the HWS with something S6 ... assault cannons work fine.

The AV12-spam is definitely much scarier. Also notable is that a 5-squad blob with PWs and Straken lurking somewhere in the background would make lunchmeat of that uber-CC BT squad.

Ah your IG buddies must step up to the challenge then. They maybe still in the uphill path of the learning curve..

The list above is just nasty..

Yay, I'm glad there's new interest in this topic. I have to say, my friend uses a less than ideal IG list (due to his available models) yet it still kicks ass. I shudder at the thought of playing against list mentioned above.

I find the idea of Helbrecht cowering inside his LRC, telling his Initiates to stay inside 'Lest ye be burnt in the heat of a thousand lasguns'. Perhaps they should use extra strength sunscreen when exiting via the assault ramp

I guess for fluff reasons, I like to charge my BT into CC whenever and as soon as possible, and this has lead to my downfall in most situations. Also, is it worth taking LRC's if you're not going to use them as transports?