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I see 40k networked as a first-step a "low hanging fruit" that would allow folks with the hardware easy access and something to show, I don't see it as the final product, but a low- hanging fruit that is achievable and has value as a tool/toy to help work out the kinks of the technology. Once the hardware exists and is moderatley standard, there is little reason not to continue software development.

I use 40 k networked rather than vassal on a giant multiple-touch surface because I think vassal-multiple-touch is easier, as you do not require the object recognition or facing determination that become more important in future features. Some folks are already solving and playing 40k in vassal ( or were , I think the ip issues were the icons, so it is concievable that 40k is still legal to play in vassal, just with a different tileset.


I think this has great potential for multiple systems of tabletop gaming ( d&d anyone?) not to mention what else you could do with a 6x4 interactive table.


Hard question 1 : projector /throw. Find a projector that will throw a 6x4 (ish) image for less than $500 and determine how far it needs to be to reach an effective surface of 6x4.

If the distance is greater than 4-6' we will need multiple projectors, so the projector budget is one item to keep an eye on

adding information:


I was not able to resolve the throw of a single projector to get to a 4'X6' area to a reasonable area. (Most Need a 12' throw to get a 72" horizontal projection distance even "short throw" need 11'). Mirrored arrangements could allow this distance to be created within some volumes; but getting to 4x6 without building a pit/special room would be tough.

Alternate suggestions: Get rid of the need for miniatures altogether. Go to a scrolling, multi-touch Vassal.

Option 2 Play-by Email.

Laser-cut terrain http://www.miniaturescenery.com/

Provides modularity of construction; coupled with identical setups. Solves some of the "3-D" problem.

The second portion of the 3-D problem could be solved by "magic cylinders" for "t-LOS" targeting.

Similar to how WM is handling targeting.

players build identical maps, do turn-by turn images. resolve online using dice-type program.

Ideally you'd play the game through Google wave (creating the battle report as you go), uploading images after moves, removing casualties, etc.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have Wave invites; I do not have the Laser-cut terrain. I'd be willing to attempt option 2.

skipmcne wrote:adding information:
Option 2 Play-by Email.

Laser-cut terrain http://www.miniaturescenery.com/

Provides modularity of construction; coupled with identical setups. Solves some of the "3-D" problem.

The second portion of the 3-D problem could be solved by "magic cylinders" for "t-LOS" targeting.

Similar to how WM is handling targeting.

players build identical maps, do turn-by turn images. resolve online using dice-type program.

Ideally you'd play the game through Google wave (creating the battle report as you go), uploading images after moves, removing casualties, etc.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have Wave invites; I do not have the Laser-cut terrain. I'd be willing to attempt option 2.

Perhaps the procedure should look something like this:

Deployment:
1. Place terrain, describing placement by giving the co-ordinates of at-least 3 readily identifiable points on the terrain piece.
2. Determine game type/deployment zones as normal using a dice roller on wave
3. Deploy forces, record co-ordinates of each model.
3a. Perhaps include a facing value by taking the angle between the player's long table edge and an imgainary line drawn between the
models feet?
3b. Record position for vehicles in the same manner as for terrain.
4. Post top down photos for each unit deployed on the board

Movement:
1. Post top down photo of unit prior to movement
2. Move models and record new position (ie: Necron warrior @ (12",15") to (18",15")
3. Post top down photo of unit after movment

Shooting:
1. Declare unit to fire with
2. Request LOS photos with a location and a direction (ie: (18",15") toward the ruined cathedral's second floor)
3. Opponent posts requested photos
4. Select unit to target, make measurements for maximum range weapon may be fired and record positions
5. Oppenent measures from location of firing model and reports number of and which models are in range
6. Resolve shots

I imagine the assault phase would use a set of rules like in the other two phases. It might be helpful to have empty
bases to track positions of the opponents models locally.

If we stick with the "I'm using GW models, and want to make it so I can play with people over the internet" restriction I think that's fair.

the whole "scrolling MS-Surface" thing turns the models into fancy mouse pointers; makes 3-D hard, and generally throws quite a lot of the "fancyness" of playing tabletop away.

Don't get me wrong. I'd LOVE to have animated squads of SM shooting at Animated squads of Gaunts. It's just that I can do that already (with DOW on a tabletop); throwing the Model requirement in doesn't improve the experience any.

If I want to against you with my toys over the internet; I need to change the problem (or find a way to have a 12' throw on my projector table)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quite a lot could be done with a set of standard bases, a standard model height, and "magic cylinders".

If we both had the same terrain (e.g. the laser-cut terrain above+ GW terrain) then we could do board Setup + mission + with a single pair of photographs. Deployment could be done similarly (by unit). I could put down empty bases for your units (or If I had the models, proxies, etc.) We could then do LOS & Shooting, Saves, etc.

If you had a projector, and we'd setup the terrain consistently, you could project (from the same position as the camera) the deployment & movement. This _would_ speed internet play, as all I need to do is place my markers for your units atop the projection.

Facing is an interesting point.

As far as the unit interface goes you would need some sort of secondary screen or popup window in the main table to display unit equipment and powers when moving or shooting. That way you could have Marine squad A fire pistols at Gaunts unit B to allow charging instead of defaulting to firing Bolters. Also some sort of name tag would need to be displayed near each model (or on the unit status screen mentioned earlier) so you could tell the system how to allocate wounds and such and special actions for distinct models. Some sort of simple animation or sound effects would be entertaining while the system calculates results of the attacks or you declare a charge or rally! (Sound bites from DoW would be pretty cool to add in!)

If the table was able to keep track of unit status on a model by model basis (no reason why it can't) then it could keep track of wound markers on multi wound models and even give you an "up to the move" victory conditions window! Monitoring KP or objectives or even a combination of the two!

As far as terrain placement goes.

1. The system would need to be able to take into account models being above the table (tall hills, building, etc.) and take that into account when determining ranges.
2. Magic cylinders would be the best way to determine LoS, like Skipmcne said you could then apply a standard height for each size base to allow for range calculation of models that are not on the same horizontal plane.
3. if one person had files for terrain then only one set would be "needed". The person with the physical terrain could "host" the game and the other system could then extrapolate the positions and create appropriate size areas on its screen to represent the terrain.
4. Ideally you could have the table store a list of all the pieces of terrain that are calibrated for the system. That way you could simply place each piece of terrain on the table and have it instantly recognized. If you want to get really crazy you could even have the table keep track of how much of the table is covered in terrain (based on known base dimensions and it could warn you when you approach a certain density of terrain (for example it could tell you when you have roughly 25% table coverage for an average game). Also one thing it could do is generate a random map for you! No more asking a friend to setup the table or having to agree on where to place things. Ideally you could even index all pieces of terrain and tag them with different keywords so you could then tell the table you want a random board of X dimensions with Y percentage coverage with themed terrain for A, B, and C keywords.

RFID Tags on models

1. some sort of standardized tag size and shape would be needed as well as standardized placement on certain types of models if the system is going to be doing range calculations (especially if using a magic cylinder!). For example a Land raider is huge! If the tags were placed in different locations on two different models (even if off by only a centimeter or two) then the range calculations would be off for one if they were not individually calibrated! I assume that the system would need a way of calibrating in bulk otherwise it would take hours to get an entire army table worthy! Perhaps something like a conversion kit for each basic vehicle chassis that can then be synced to a specific unit type within the system.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for calibrating models to the table.

2 ways I see working

1. you calibrate them pre-game to some sort of roster program (perhaps some sort of database extract from Army builder?) attach a model ID # to each unit. (good for tournaments where you cant spend 10 minutes setting stuff up)

2. The table gets a roster generator like army builder built into its interface (maybe it even is armybuilder). When you finish making a list the table presents you with an outline of each unit you plan on using and you can then place your figs on the table in specific locations corresponding to each model and then tell it to calibrate! Do this for each unit might take a few minutes but would be fun and pretty fool proof to use!

So... what happens if you accidentally knock a couple models over during the opponents turn?