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So perhaps the Lesser Daemons was a poor example, my mistake! But in any case...

ChristmasMarine wrote:wait, im not sure if this is exactly relavent, but it might help.

BGB, page 87

"often labeled with terms such as "supernumerary" or "insignificant" these units do not count towards the number of choices the person can make from the force organization chart..."

the wording here says they do not count towards the choices you have. And you HAVE to make choices. As they exist outside the force org chart, they would not count towards the minimum requirements. So, if you want an HQ that doesn't take up a slot, unless the codex specifies otherwise, then its not your mandatory HQ.

My take on this.

...I think we have our winner?!

ChristmasMarine wrote:wait, im not sure if this is exactly relavent, but it might help.

BGB, page 87
"often labeled with terms such as "supernumerary" or "insignificant" these units do not count towards the number of choices the person can make from the force organization chart..."

the wording here says they do not count towards the choices you have. And you HAVE to make choices. As they exist outside the force org chart, they would not count towards the minimum requirements. So, if you want an HQ that doesn't take up a slot, unless the codex specifies otherwise, then its not your mandatory HQ.

Sorry, but we already covered that. It's exactly the reason that I feel that units that don't count towards your FOC shouldn't count for your mandatory choices... but the BT FAQ rather strongly suggests that GW disagree. As do several other posters in the thread, on the grounds that counting as a FoC slot is not required... the mandatory choice simply has to be a unit of the roght type. So a HQ unit counts as your mandatory HQ, regardless of whether or not it uses a FoC slot.

Y(and my)MMV.

insaniak wrote:

ChristmasMarine wrote:wait, im not sure if this is exactly relavent, but it might help.

BGB, page 87
"often labeled with terms such as "supernumerary" or "insignificant" these units do not count towards the number of choices the person can make from the force organization chart..."

the wording here says they do not count towards the choices you have. And you HAVE to make choices. As they exist outside the force org chart, they would not count towards the minimum requirements. So, if you want an HQ that doesn't take up a slot, unless the codex specifies otherwise, then its not your mandatory HQ.

Sorry, but we already covered that. It's exactly the reason that I feel that units that don't count towards your FOC shouldn't count for your mandatory choices... but the BT FAQ rather strongly suggests that GW disagree. As do several other posters in the thread, on the grounds that counting as a FoC slot is not required... the mandatory choice simply has to be a unit of the roght type. So a HQ unit counts as your mandatory HQ, regardless of whether or not it uses a FoC slot.

Y(and my)MMV.

guess its a matter of opinion then. One of those things that really doesn't have a truly clear answer

Is there any army where this situation is a problem (i.e, not explained in the appropriate codex?)

ChristmasMarine wrote:Is there any army where this situation is a problem (i.e, not explained in the appropriate codex?)

WH, with Priests if for some reason you don't want a Canoness, Palatine, or Inquisitor Lord.

That'll teach me for not reading the entire thread.

My take on this is that the FAQ for the BT is actually wrong (surprised?) because it says...
"Yes, even though he does not use up an HQ slot, he is still an HQ choice, and so he can fulfill the minimum HQ requirement"
...which is counter acted by the wording in the Codex, which says...
"The Emperor's Champion does NOT use up an HQ slot on a Force Organization chart"

And even the rulebook says not to count those selections towards the FO chart. So in my opinion which is formed based on those rules, any unit that does not take up a slot on the FO chart cannot be used to fill up mandatory slots on the FO chart (if they aren't considered part of the FO chart, then how are they supposed to count towards it?).

lol, guess i need to read the entire thread too.

and arguing "Are FAQs legit" stuff...wasn't there already a flame war on that?

Personally, for non slot HQ, I would say no, they don't, unless specifically allowed so, but since there is no clear ruling on this, its just an opinion

insaniak wrote:And Gwar, 'seriously' pointing out the relevant section would have been more useful than the attitude.

I did point out the relevant section... I gave you a page number.

What is your problem?

ChristmasMarine wrote:and arguing "Are FAQs legit" stuff...wasn't there already a flame war on that?

Several, haha. I mean personally I will use a FAQ, but if it directly contradicts a rule (as written in a Codex or Rulebook), I will not use it. But thats just how myself + my gaming friends play.

anticitizen013 wrote:

ChristmasMarine wrote:and arguing "Are FAQs legit" stuff...wasn't there already a flame war on that?

Several, haha. I mean personally I will use a FAQ, but if it directly contradicts a rule (as written in a Codex or Rulebook), I will not use it. But thats just how myself + my gaming friends play.

Le gasp, you mean there is another who uses the FAQs the same way as me?

Blasphemy! You must be burnt at the stake like the Heretic you are, for only an evil Chaos Spawned abomination would agree with Gwar!

Gwar! wrote:

insaniak wrote:And Gwar, 'seriously' pointing out the relevant section would have been more useful than the attitude.

I did point out the relevant section... I gave you a page number.

The page number wasn't there when I replied.

This thread...

...so close to being closed...

So close to having warnings and/or suspensions handed out...

One thing to keep in mind. Not taking up one of your maximums is completely different than existing outside the entire structure. It's why you can't take a Rhino as a second troops choice, the book says they exist outside the structure. I don't have the daemons codex in front of me, but I think that's why you can't take them as your mandatory selection. It's not because they don't count towards your maximum, it's because they are specifically noted to exist outside the entire structure like the Rhino (and all dedicated transports) are.

I don't believe any HQ unit in any codex is labeled with "supernumerary" or anything similar. Those HQ's are completely like every other HQ in every respect except they don't count against your maximums of that unit type. They are still a HQ selection, and that is the requirement in the rulebook. You must make one selection. For IG, taking a Techpriest fills that requirement without conflicting with any other rule.

Alpharius wrote:This thread...

...so close to being closed...

So close to having warnings and/or suspensions handed out...

I'm really sorry. I really didn't expect this much animosity to come from my question.

Paladin Blake wrote:

Alpharius wrote:This thread...

...so close to being closed...

So close to having warnings and/or suspensions handed out...

I'm really sorry. I really didn't expect this much animosity to come from my question.

Don't worry - it isn't you!

Often times, there is no "100% obvious/right answer".

It is at times like these that you'll have to come up with something that works for you and your group...

ChristmasMarine wrote:wait, im not sure if this is exactly relavent, but it might help.

BGB, page 87

"often labeled with terms such as "supernumerary" or "insignificant" these units do not count towards the number of choices the person can make from the force organization chart..."

the wording here says they do not count towards the choices you have. And you HAVE to make choices. As they exist outside the force org chart, they would not count towards the minimum requirements. So, if you want an HQ that doesn't take up a slot, unless the codex specifies otherwise, then its not your mandatory HQ.

My take on this.

Read a little more closely.

......often labeled with terms such as "supernumerary" or "insignificant" these units do not count towards the number of choices the person can make from the force organization chart...

Note that it's doesn't say they don't count towards the minimum, just that they don't count towards the maximum, and that the codex itself will list any and all FOC restrictions/requirements for such units.

There is no terminology anywhere in the BGB that says the compulsory FOC selections must 'occupy a spot' on the FOC.

it does not say maximum, please show me in my quote where it does. It just says "number of choices" this is where the argument is, ie, what exactly does that mean?

EDIT: "can" also does not mean maximum. Not in this context, and not in any other.

Gwar! wrote:So Yakface, you would allow me to use the Necron FAQ with my Skaven force?

I'm sorry to quote this piece of garbage (the text, not the poster) so far after it having been posted.

Its responses like this, that are sarcastic and irrelevant that derail threads and make them unenjoyable and uninformative for others to read.

Gwar, I would say that you should be ashamed of yourself for making such a post, but it is consistent with much of the other garbage I have seen with your tag on it.

For shame.

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