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Can we say Star Treck Borg!

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, that is the implication.

However, it poses the question of what happens once the lowest grade Necron souls become even further decayed. There must be a point at which they are incapable of operating any useful machinery.

Maybe I've just been taking the whole "soulless killing machine" thing too literally to see a problem, rather than assuming that by "soulless" they meant "99% soul free".

Ya know, like Dick Cheney.

or chuck norris

They had one planet, where they were all Necronised. There couldn't have been more than a few billion of them to start with, yet they keep popping up all over the Galaxy.

Do Necrons have a way of capturing and Necronizing other people?

Thats pretty many if you ask me, its kind of as many as there are eldar left I´d say.

I took it that since the cause of Necrons' premature death was the unstable radiation from their sun, if they had been able to leave their solar system they would have been relieved of this disability and would not have had any motive to sign up with the C'Tan.

Genetic evolution made then predisposed to die early, kinda like the Tau I guess.
The reason was presumably the high background radiation. Maybe the race needed to die of young in order to make sure they procreate young, before background radiation destroyed to much of the genetic material passed through to further generations. It makes sense.
This brings some issues though.

1:
If the gene that codes your death can be identified even with our own todays science how come the super advanced necrontyrs couldnt do it?
They were the undisputed masters of science and the rulers of matter fcol.
Hence there shouldnt be any problem for them to alter som of their genetics to enable a longer life.

2:
Even we can protect ourselves from background radiation so how come the super advanced necrontyr could not?

3:
A short lifespan means a short time to develope intelectual skills like sciences etc.
Strange that a race can achieve so much in such a short lifespan.
They must have matured super fast and possessed very high intellects.

4: Were they colour blind? I mean its all black black black and yet more black...with some green lights thrown into it. Geez, colour blind or goths the lot of them.

Pyriel- wrote:
1:
If the gene that codes your death can be identified even with our own todays science how come the super advanced necrontyrs couldnt do it?
They were the undisputed masters of science and the rulers of matter fcol.
Hence there shouldnt be any problem for them to alter som of their genetics to enable a longer life.

2:
Even we can protect ourselves from background radiation so how come the super advanced necrontyr could not?

3:
A short lifespan means a short time to develope intelectual skills like sciences etc.
Strange that a race can achieve so much in such a short lifespan.
They must have matured super fast and possessed very high intellects.

4: Were they colour blind? I mean its all black black black and yet more black...with some green lights thrown into it. Geez, colour blind or goths the lot of them.

1) Also consider that the radiation might have had some problems with their ability to mess with genetics. Plus, their absolute hatred of the Old Ones might have persuaded them from helping themselves to harming others, thus their technology advancing swiftly towards one thing as opposed to another.

2) Background radiation is a little different than you're life source ironically killing you. Unless this background radiation is like living outside Chernobyl, which you're lifespan can be more than halved anyways.

3) We have relatively short lifespans, yet have done so much. I'm sure they had a decent record keeping system, allowing previously gained knowledge to be retained. Also, I don't believe they had faced the radiation since their inception, but later on.

4) While that's the standard color, i recall reading that the Necrons had to ability to adapt to their Tomb Worlds environment. So ones from a frozen world could be more white while ones from desert planets could be sandy.

As for the whole bit about an empire, I don't believe it was galaxy spanning, but it was probably spread out sparsely to be essentially a base from which to springboard attacks against
Old Ones. Plus the deal with the C'Tan was pretty close to the end of their civilization and before their entombment, so it is very plausible to have had sizable populations built up. Plus, Tomb Worlds not only house the active army, but the odies in which to transfer the consciousness of the other Necrons who have been damaged beyond repair. But consider how hard it is to be damaged that badly, because even if they can't get back up, they can be taken back for more extensive repairs.

Please allow me to shed some light on the issue here.

With regards to the number of planets Necrons have been found on, reports of hundreds of tomb worlds discovered by the Explorators of the Adeptus Mechnaicus over the millennia'

That's it. Hundreds, not thousands, or tens of thousands. Even if you assume that there are tomb worlds undiscovered, I doubt the number could feasibly be above four figures.

With regards to the Necrontyr expansion size, 'Once a proud race whose Empire spanned the stars.....Unable to find peace on their own world, the Necrontyr blindly groped outward to other stars. Using stasis crypts and slow burning torch ships, clad in living metal to resist the age long journeys through the void, they began to colonise distant planets....the Necrontyr were pushed back until they became little more than an irritant to the Old Ones, a quiescent peril clinging to the outer dark among the halo stars...'

So I believe tha thaving no more than few thousand tomb world would be enough for several million Necrons at least on each one.

Also, when you kill a Necron, it phases out back to a tomb world where it is repaired and made ready for battle once again. The number of necrons never actually decreases, they just go back to the tomb for a ten minute repair, and are then sent back out to battle again. That's where the image of an endless tide comes from.

1) Also consider that the radiation might have had some problems with their ability to mess with genetics. Plus, their absolute hatred of the Old Ones might have persuaded them from helping themselves to harming others, thus their technology advancing swiftly towards one thing as opposed to another.

2) Background radiation is a little different than you're life source ironically killing you. Unless this background radiation is like living outside Chernobyl, which you're lifespan can be more than halved anyways.

3) We have relatively short lifespans, yet have done so much. I'm sure they had a decent record keeping system, allowing previously gained knowledge to be retained. Also, I don't believe they had faced the radiation since their inception, but later on.

4) While that's the standard color, i recall reading that the Necrons had to ability to adapt to their Tomb Worlds environment. So ones from a frozen world could be more white while ones from desert planets could be sandy.

As for the whole bit about an empire, I don't believe it was galaxy spanning, but it was probably spread out sparsely to be essentially a base from which to springboard attacks against
Old Ones. Plus the deal with the C'Tan was pretty close to the end of their civilization and before their entombment, so it is very plausible to have had sizable populations built up. Plus, Tomb Worlds not only house the active army, but the odies in which to transfer the consciousness of the other Necrons who have been damaged beyond repair. But consider how hard it is to be damaged that badly, because even if they can't get back up, they can be taken back for more extensive repairs.

1: is not an issue as shielding from rdiation is far to easy. There is no problem for an advanced race to shield from background radiation as there wouldnt be any problem altering their genetic code.

2: Its still called background radiation so?
And still is easily to shield from, it would be even for us on a limited scale.

3: How do you know? Compared to what/whom?
Are you talking about todays humans or humans in the 40k universe?
Also, we are the masters of always repeating history, no matter records.
Remember, the necrontyr are portraited kind of like us with our basic flaws, warfare, egoism, class dividing struggel for power etc etc.
All those attributes contribute to hiding records and history from the coming generations. History is what teaches us IF we are able to learn from it (and we are not) but and more importantly, history is written by the victors!

4: That is called camoflage.
A simple pragmatic or necessary thing to do, nothing to do with art or the ability to perceive colours. (no you dont have to be able to see colours to be able to apply colouration to certain things).


And yes, I agree that they would have had a large population no matter the living conditions. Look at us, half the world lives of bread crumbs and dirty water and still spawns like crazy.
If they did like we do and used the adequate idiotic socialist programs they could have enabled their race to literarily breed like flies.

But what puzzles me is the graduate degration of their consciousness as they get damaged and repaired over and over again. I mean what is it that actually brakes in something that can be repaired 100%? If they were in vacuum I would have understood it (vacuum abrasion) but they are hidden in freaking caves. Maybe slowly released sulfur and carbon based gasses do their thing over time?

reports of hundreds of tomb worlds discovered by the Explorators of the Adeptus Mechnaicus over the millennia'

That's it. Hundreds, not thousands, or tens of thousands.

The key word here is "discovered".
There is by definition an unknown that remain undiscovered.

Them leaving in slow ships clad in steel is also a contradiction.
A race that has the power to build ark ships and move consciousness to robotic bodies still dont know how to move faster then light? I mean thats like saying we invented the jet plane but didnt know how to make the wheel.

As for the old ones and their psychic mastery well, the eldar amonghst otehrs, were given a fraction of that ability as I understand it and they are proficient in reading the future but the old ones themselves couldnt see their own downfall, hmm.

Certainly the necron background has big holes in its logic and makes for some interessting observations and debate.

Could they have had a gradual shift into necrons, with the true nature of those changed concealed from the rest?

A group of necrontyr get converted to necrons, and very quickly whisked away to whatever battlefield they're heading for. Those necrontyr back home think they're heroes or similar (as many armed forces today are treated by civilians.

The necrontyr keep breeding, and the gradual shift continues. Until they realise what is going on, so those left get turned all at once, or their star is about to die and the rest of them convert in a big hurry to survive.

Pyriel, I suggest that you read the following sentence next time you quote one of my posts. You'll notice I did actually account for there being undiscovered ones.

As to steel ships, since when was steel 'living metal'? I'm pretty sure my radiator isn't alive.

As for the ark ships, those were preludes to their faster than light travel, which came about around the same time the C'Tan manifested. It's all in the fluff section of the codex if you go take a look.

As to steel ships, since when was steel 'living metal'? I'm pretty sure my radiator isn't alive.

Here, let me requote you:

clad in living metal to resist the age long journeys through the void, they began to colonise distant planets.

Seems like your radiator does indeed live. Check it twice the next time.

Ergo, my point still stands. They beguin to colonise other worlds already possessing magic levels of technology and STILL they cant fly faster or fix the basic problems with radiation shieldingand their genome.
Weird.

....I'm sorry? How does 'living metal' = steel? I never once said the word steel, so I have no idea where you're pulling this from. That quote you just pulled says, 'clad in living metal'. The same kind of metal the Necrons in current day 40K are made from. Are you saying the Necron's living metal is steel? You're really confusing me here.

And I'm not too sure how not being able to do genetic engineering and reconstruction on large scale prevents you from making settlements on other planets. Theoretically, we could go and colonise Mars right now if we felt like it, but we still can't cure cancer.

Seems we misunderstood one another on the metal wording, big deal.


And do you really KNOW we cant cure cancer?
I dont but what I do know is that IF we could do so today we would never,ever allow that to be known to the public since curing cancer would be the single most un-economical thing to hit the planet since healthy food and excercise.

And no we cant colonize mars today, it costs to much to move even 10 persons there on a "quick" visit not to mention its not even tested yet.
And that is mars with a handful of people, far from moving half the civilization a bucketloads of lightyears away now is it.

Again, if you have the tech and ability to build ark ships, relocate consciousness into artificial bodies and make living metal then how come simple radiation shielding and dna restructuring (something we even today can partially do on a basic level) is impossible?
The ne´crontyr must have been the smartest dumbguys in the whole existence.

We can make spaceships that take us to the moon, rovers that have traveled or are on route to every planet in our solar system, and yet we have massive difficulty looking at the bottom of our own ocean and know next to nothing about what is down there.

Logically, looking in the ocean should be an easier task. It is quite possible for a civilization to be advanced in one area and deficient in another. In this case, a fair bit of the technology overlaps, so we really have less excuse than the Necrontyr, since space travel and genetic engineering have next to no overlap. They were good at one and not at another. I'm failing to see how this is them being 'stupid'.

I'm sorry, but how did you EVER get steel out of what I said? I think the one who's misunderstanding here sir, is you.

Technically, we could colonise mars today. If we constructed a space elevator with carbon nanotubes, we could shift all the materials we needed to space relatively cheaply. From there, there are several designs for large 'mother ships' that mould jet back and forth across the galaxy. You see, once you start moving in space, you don't stop, as there's no air resistance. It actually doesn't take a whole lot of energy to maneouvre once you're free of gravity. However, that's a whole other discussion.

And yes, I REALLY KNOW we can't cure cancer. If you go and look through all the medical textbooks you like, humanity cannot cure cancer right now. That's not to say it won't be possible in the future, but right now, no, we cannot.

Living metal-we can make and manipulate uranium. So what? Heck, the romans had metalworkers. You cannot really postulate how much tech living metal takes to develop or create, because it doesn't exist in our world. Bad comparison there.

As for relocating consciousness into metal bodies, it was the C'Tan that did that round about the same time they gave them faster than light travel.

As for genetic restructuring, you're applying the principle that their bodies were similar to ours, and thus relatively easily manipulated on a molecular level. As it's an alien species, this could well not be the case. Let's face it, can you reprogram the human body to not need oxygen? There are some things that are pretty hardwired in, no matter how good at genetic manipulation you are. And as Morgrim says, being proficient in one field of research doesn't not implicate mastery in another necessarily.

Ketara wrote:
With regards to the Necrontyr expansion size, 'Once a proud race whose Empire spanned the stars.....Unable to find peace on their own world, the Necrontyr blindly groped outward to other stars. Using stasis crypts and slow burning torch ships, clad in living metal to resist the age long journeys through the void, they began to colonise distant planets....the Necrontyr were pushed back until they became little more than an irritant to the Old Ones, a quiescent peril clinging to the outer dark among the halo stars...'

Also, in the Soul Drinkers novel they went into the veiled region aka the halo zone to find fuel. They found many active tomb worlds and long abandoned human settlements - considering the imperium doesn't go in the halo zone, this perhaps could be settlements from age of technology? Anyway, there are plenty of active tomb worlds in the halo zone, which is where the necrons were pushed back too.

No, we cannot make a space elevator with the current level of technology. I have friends in their final year of their Nanotechnology degree. There is no way current production methods can manufacture nanotubes that will perform that well. Granted, small scale tests suggest that one day they might, but that is assuming that their properties scale linearly, and that production methods are found to make nanotubes of sufficent length.


*science geek returns to box*

The Necrontyr colonized other worlds through vast tomb ships in which those where interred in sarcophagi. Not being very psyhic they did not use Warp travel instead their vessels are the only ones capable of approaching lightspeed. But this may have been after their conversion into the Necrons. Getting jealous of the near immortality of the Old Ones they found the star Vampires. So originally the 100 C'tan probably each took over a world or a system to feed off the Necrontyr.

Morgrim wrote:No, we cannot make a space elevator with the current level of technology. I have friends in their final year of their Nanotechnology degree. There is no way current production methods can manufacture nanotubes that will perform that well. Granted, small scale tests suggest that one day they might, but that is assuming that their properties scale linearly, and that production methods are found to make nanotubes of sufficent length.


*science geek returns to box*

I actually did some research on the topic in order to evaluate the feasibility of creatying military installations in space (War Studies student). They have actually created carbon nanotubes that could theoretically be strong enough for a space elevator, although they've only produced a very small amount of them. However, there are many other issues such as how to stop it wearing away through air friction, replace damaged sections, etc, that currently lack proper answers. However, research is ongoing, and I would be surprised if we haven't constructed one in fifty years.

We can make spaceships that take us to the moon, rovers that have traveled or are on route to every planet in our solar system, and yet we have massive difficulty looking at the bottom of our own ocean and know next to nothing about what is down there.

Not really, its all about economical gains.
This is the reason we know so little about the oceans and not our solar system.
When some money were finally thrown into the oceanic research the DSDP projects that popped up were like a brief waterfall of ocean information flooding our lack of data.
As soon as the funding stopped it reversed back to "we know nothing".

The lack of overlap is true but if you take it to the absurd levels of the necrontyr it becomes ridiculous.
Its like I would claim humans have discovered the means to travel to other planets but cannot cure a simple cold. Its absurd.

I'm sorry, but how did you EVER get steel out of what I said? I think the one who's misunderstanding here sir, is you.

Geesus H christ, talk about being stuck on an irrelevant misunderstanding, let it go man. I dont even know what the fuss is all about anymore, steel, metal?
So I mistook one single word in your text, you are right and I am wrong, you wrote something other then "steel" or "metal" or whatever it now was. Is your online-honour restored now?
Let it go now.

Technically, we could colonise mars today. If we constructed a space elevator with carbon nanotubes, we could shift all the materials we needed to space relatively cheaply. From there, there are several designs for large 'mother ships' that mould jet back and forth across the galaxy. You see, once you start moving in space, you don't stop, as there's no air resistance. It actually doesn't take a whole lot of energy to maneouvre once you're free of gravity. However, that's a whole other discussion.

No, "technically" we cannot do that today or even in the forseable future or else we would have solved the radioactive waste disposal problem "today" instead of risking future generations as well as have access to a money saving transport system to space from the super expensicve one we have now.
The materials we have are far from adequate to the task.

We havent solved all the danger issues even, there are issues with where said site would be situated (it must be on the exact true equator), we still havent figured out a fast way to produce the materials and there are physical issues that still must be solved. Corealis, wobbling etc.

And yes, I REALLY KNOW we can't cure cancer. If you go and look through all the medical textbooks you like, humanity cannot cure cancer right now. That's not to say it won't be possible in the future, but right now, no, we cannot

Thats interesting. "We" had microwave machines and jet planes looong before the "public" was even aware of that, it said so in ALL the books back then you know.
But sure, if you bring me proof that behind locked doors there arent things "we" dont know about then I´ll agree.

Besides you still havent deigned to answer the point of IF we could solve it, we still wouldnt use it.

Living metal-we can make and manipulate uranium. So what? Heck, the romans had metalworkers. You cannot really postulate how much tech living metal takes to develop or create, because it doesn't exist in our world. Bad comparison there.

So what?
Its light years apart, its like saying "military super carrier? So what, we can make a wooden sail boat!"

So we can semi-equal making living metal to our current gas centrifugal manipulation of atomic masses which is basic physics?
Can I have what you are smoking?

No I cant speculate how much tech it takes to make living metal but I can make a fairly calculated guess that making metal that stays liquid under most conditions, generated its own enegy by metabolizing god knows what AND is somehow imbued with self aware consciousness is a hell lot farther to the future then roman metal smiths and uranium. LOL
Remember, according to you we cant solve cancer but at the same time I cant assume we are far from creating self aware metals, well, I really dont know what to say.

As for relocating consciousness into metal bodies, it was the C'Tan that did that round about the same time they gave them faster than light travel.

Ah, so they magically got this super tech from their masters. Ok.
To bad they were so stupid that they didnt ask for the magic miracle cure for radiation shielding (you know, the super hi-tech dirt, lead and bricks they somehow forgot to science-gap-invent while being busy building living metal bodies and super ark ships).

As for genetic restructuring, you're applying the principle that their bodies were similar to ours, and thus relatively easily manipulated on a molecular level. As it's an alien species, this could well not be the case. Let's face it, can you reprogram the human body to not need oxygen? There are some things that are pretty hardwired in, no matter how good at genetic manipulation you are. And as Morgrim says, being proficient in one field of research doesn't not implicate mastery in another necessarily.

You are assuming quite much by equating mutation resistance to rewiring the whole organism to metabolise another energy carrier molecule.
You know I too can get you your level of insane comparisons to prove just about anything.
Please try and get some realism into your equations ok?

And Morgrim is wrong in one way,. Sure there can be science gaps on certain levels but not the humongous gaps he suggest are ok.
Again, it is fairly illogical that a civilisation that is also given a lot of "human" qualities (thus not entirely "alien") is expected to develop total mastery of the material universe and still not be able to change the properties of organic molecules.

I actually did some research on the topic in order to evaluate the feasibility of creatying military installations in space (War Studies student). They have actually created carbon nanotubes that could theoretically be strong enough for a space elevator, although they've only produced a very small amount of them.

Heh, the key word here is "theoretically"!
Also there is a certain amount of difference between "some research" and working on a degree in said subject.
You know I also did "some research" on the Iraq political situation so does that make me into an middle east expert or even give me credibility vs a true university student of the subject?
Hell no.
And I didnt do "some research" but actually studied physics, celest mechanics, chrystallography and material structural integrity on university level so yes that gives me the right to smile when I read some of the "theoretical" ideas and equation examples "some" people in here put forward such as equating small to micro scale material properties to macro scaled ditto based on "some research". (that gets a nice, big laugh from me actually).

Heh, the key word here is "theoretically"!
Also there is a certain amount of difference between "some research" and working on a degree in said subject.
You know I also did "some research" on the Iraq political situation so does that make me into an middle east expert or even give me credibility vs a true university student of the subject?
Hell no.
And I didnt do "some research" but actually studied physics, celest mechanics, chrystallography and material structural integrity on university level so yes that gives me the right to smile when I read some of the "theoretical" ideas and equation examples "some" people in here put forward such as equating small to micro scale material properties to macro scaled ditto based on "some research". (that gets a nice, big laugh from me actually).

That's genuinely interesting, if you strip out the sarcasm. From the research I conducted in my university library, it was said to be theoretically possible, but do you disagree? If so, why? Note here that I am genuinely interested. I'm not out to score points arguing on the net (remember, it's like running in the special olympics ), and if what I've read is wrong, I'm curious as to why this is the case.

You may laugh at my 'research', and proclaim loudly to the world that you have knowledge that is denied to us mortals, but I'd like to think that with a university library that specialises in various sciences, I'm a few steps above, 'some guy that read something on wikipedia'. I'd also like to think it qualifies me to hold an opinion to a certain extent. If proven wrong by someone with superior sources, I'll gladly change my opinion, but until then, I refuse to let you denigrate my work in order to boost your ego for some unknown reason.


EDIT: I did actually take the time to address each of your counter-arguments, but for some reason, they appear to have vanished after I clicked to post my response. As such, I simply cannot be bothered to type it all out again.

The war in heaven may have lasted millions of years, so necrons could have began with a single planet and expanded throughout the galaxy, which is the impression i always had. The original necrontyr were tricked by the Ctan into inhabiting metal bodies, i see no reason why they couldn't do that to anyone else. Also, since only the Lord's retained their souls, couldn't they just build more necron warriors?

jsullivanlaw wrote:Also, since only the Lord's retained their souls, couldn't they just build more necron warriors?

There are a number of things wrong with this statement. The Necrontyr didn't transfer their souls into their Necron bodies, it was just their Minds. And Necron Lords are necessarily the only ones to retain their intellect through the ages, they just died less often and thus have retained more of their intellect than their fellow warriors. (i.e. A Necron Lord who has died alot will have less of a personnality than a Necron Warrior who hasn't died very often.)

Though, I do agree that they should be able to C&P the intellects of the best Necron Warriors and increase their ranks exponentially.

Nanotubes, and why they cannot be used in futuristic space programs 101

-Making carbon nanotubes is difficult and expensive.
-The resulting nanotubes are anything but precise, generally having different widths and general properties, some becoming double walled.
-Technical limits restrict the maximum length of nanotubes to about 2cm. It is possible to go slightly beyond this, but that generally involves lots of mucking about with a force probe microscope and is done one nanotube at a time. The impracticality of this should be obvious.
-Perhaps most important, nanotubes lack the sheer tensile strength to withstand the forces that would be placed on a space elevator. They might be good. They are nowhere near that good. Again, in a completely theoretical 'if they do this at this scale they may be able to do that at that scale' manner, they may prove useful as a component of said elevator cable, but they are not the be all and end all. They're strings of carbon with more similarities to graphite than diamond. They're pretty easy to break. And even diamond is quite easy to shatter if you hit it along a crystal plane.

@Pyriel: Receiving the metal and virtually invincible bodies WAS the answer to radiation. IIRC, in the codex it states that the receiving of the bodies was the C'Tan's essential "bribe" drew the Necrons into yet another campaign against the Old Ones, this time under their banner. The Necrontyr had a hatred for all life forms since they viewed it as a weakness due to their problem with the radiation, so non-biological bodies was the perfect answer. Besides, they weren't at much of a position to bargain with them so much as to take a nice solution to the biggest problem, a.k.a. death, and then go fight the Old Ones with a pantheon of powerful gods on their side.

@Pyriel: Receiving the metal and virtually invincible bodies WAS the answer to radiation. IIRC, in the codex it states that the receiving of the bodies was the C'Tan's essential "bribe" drew the Necrons into yet another campaign against the Old Ones, this time under their banner. The Necrontyr had a hatred for all life forms since they viewed it as a weakness due to their problem with the radiation, so non-biological bodies was the perfect answer. Besides, they weren't at much of a position to bargain with them so much as to take a nice solution to the biggest problem, a.k.a. death, and then go fight the Old Ones with a pantheon of powerful gods on their side.

I know although I havent addressed this but now as you remind me it certainly ties in with the science gap and enourmous stupidity of the necrontyr.
Let me clearify:
They got metal bodies as a means to escape background radiation, ok.
for this they had to leave their home world, wage wars of never before seen scale, give up their living bodies (get rid of radiation danger in return for giving up feelings like taste, touch etc, thats pretty bizarre right there)
and in all means become slaves for ever!

Now all they had to do was ask the ctan how to build underground housings, produce bricks and melt lead (how they failed to think of that while being busy building space ships I dont know). Not to mention all the advanced means like I dont know, force fields etc to combat the radiation.

You understand where I´m coming from?
They were building freaking super space ships and still had to be "given" magical tech knowledge coupled with ridiculous drawbacks in order to solve a problem that freaking monkeys could have done.
This is what I mean by illogical science gaps and a story that just is left with to wide cracks to be believable.

The war in heaven may have lasted millions of years, so necrons could have began with a single planet and expanded throughout the galaxy, which is the impression i always had. The original necrontyr were tricked by the Ctan into inhabiting metal bodies, i see no reason why they couldn't do that to anyone else. Also, since only the Lord's retained their souls, couldn't they just build more necron warriors?

Hmm, I can swear reading somewhere that the basic necrons also retined their souls.
Wonder what they REALLY did offer to get them into the metal bodies though. The drawbacks are to big imo
The only thing the necrontyr truly wanted was a longer lifespan, somehting as I said, their tech level could have solved with ease.
Could it be that their jealousy was so big that they just did not care what happened to them as long as they could get the means to exact vengence?
Because there is quite frankly NO way what so ever that they couldnt have solved the life and radiation problems themselves with no outside help!

Another thing is the necrons mind or soul degrading as they are repaired over and over again.
Is this limited to their basic castes only or to their leaders as well?
And if they all suffer from the same thing is the reason that the lords dont suffer from it or not as much that they dont get destroyed as often or that they have better bodies that can withstand repairs better?

-Perhaps most important, nanotubes lack the sheer tensile strength to withstand the forces that would be placed on a space elevator. They might be good. They are nowhere near that good. Again, in a completely theoretical 'if they do this at this scale they may be able to do that at that scale' manner, they may prove useful as a component of said elevator cable, but they are not the be all and end all. They're strings of carbon with more similarities to graphite than diamond. They're pretty easy to break. And even diamond is quite easy to shatter if you hit it along a crystal plane.

Do you by any means have an accurate "mohrs graph" of the shear and tensile properties of the carbon nano tube?

And scale is a big problem from a chrystallographic point of view, apart from the technical manufacture difficulties. Any suggested theoretical solutions to maintain the same strength to size chrystal properties?

That's genuinely interesting, if you strip out the sarcasm. From the research I conducted in my university library, it was said to be theoretically possible, but do you disagree? If so, why? Note here that I am genuinely interested. I'm not out to score points arguing on the net (remember, it's like running in the special olympics ), and if what I've read is wrong, I'm curious as to why this is the case.

Morgrim covered it pretty much.
But he didnt include the impurities factor as well. At micro scale we can make pretty much "perfect" material structures but as they grow molecular impurities as well as structural flaws occur, be it by design flaws, temperature differences or abrasion. This is the general reason why solid and also "rheid" materials of ANY kind are weaker the bigger they become and that by big factors, not only certain percentages.
The elevator, be it in carbon tubes or synthetic diamond is going to be enormous and by definition it cant be made out of one piece. One problem is how to couple all the individual small pieces together without compromising structural integrity.

Another problem is celest mechanics of the earths very rotation, this basically means the material used need to display enormous strengths in all parts of a mohrs circle, not just positive tensile or shear and very few materials can do that.
Take for example construction steel, its strong and used as armature in concrete, used as reinforcement in mountain tunnels etc etc. Why? Its tensile strength is big, itsnegative tensile strength is enourmous but then its shear strength is non existent so the steel can only be useful for construction and reinforcement purposes in tight angle directions.
An orbital elevator made from steel would probably never snap from pull forces but from side affecting forces it would never last.

Another thing that factors in the movement of the cable would be the moon.
The only way such a cable could be kept "upright" is by rotationally anchoring it to a big mass. Think massive orbital station or small asteroid. This will of course be affected by the moon from varying angles.

You may laugh at my 'research', and proclaim loudly to the world that you have knowledge that is denied to us mortals, but I'd like to think that with a university library that specialises in various sciences, I'm a few steps above, 'some guy that read something on wikipedia'

Nah, its not that. I just got irritated by the multiple attempts to troll a simple misunderstanding, I got the feeling of some sort of hunt for hurt ego restoration was going on. Ticked me of, simple as that.
About the "some research". Another thing that I have seen time and time again do great harm out in the real world is the "little knowledge is harmful" syndrome. Why does it irritate me?
People in power (most often seen in political enviromental groups) with a good intention zeal based on "little" knowledge (you know, own research, reports that do not cover all angles, wiki etc) usually screw things up on epic scales.

Just one example you might laugh at but it highlites the issue perfectly are some enviro idiots here over at the northern parts pushing for some multi million project to create organic waste disposal "swamps" where bacteria broke down the waste in an enviromental friendly manner. All good and fine and paid for by me (the tax payer) but said idiots with lack of the WHOLE knowledge spectrum simply missed the part that its winter 8 freaking months of the year over there so the expensive swamp were never used in the end since it laid there frozen stiff for most parts of the year.
All this because some idiot thought he knew it all and wanted to do good.
I can give you tons of similar examples.

So yes, debates with people who think they zealously know it all because they did limited research tend to tick me of (and this selective knowledge idiocy is also why I absolutely hate enviro people with a burning passion). Now bear in mind, I am NOT, repeat not equating you with such a person so its nothing personal against you or in any form slander towards you.
Just explaining my self and why it is not me boosting my ego if you thought it was.

EDIT: I did actually take the time to address each of your counter-arguments, but for some reason, they appear to have vanished after I clicked to post my response. As such, I simply cannot be bothered to type it all out again.

PM? I have nothing against talking to you, in fact I am impressed by people who can change their minds or admit to being wrong if proven that.
Not many of those around.

They evolved with a short life span, screwing with genetics at that level could have dire consequences. Besides, the basic laws of evolution state that the odds of an alien species looking as human as the necrons (pre-zombot) is a scientific impossibility.

You gents have provided a wealth of info as to why space elevators are not currently feasible, and as such, I will echo those sentiments from now (unless someone comes along with counters to the above arguments). I'm not one of those people who, as pyriel put it, 'zealously think they know it all because they did limited research'.

As it's a new day, I'll raise one or two counter-arguments to your above posts Pyriel, if you don't mind.

Thats interesting. "We" had microwave machines and jet planes looong before the "public" was even aware of that, it said so in ALL the books back then you know.
But sure, if you bring me proof that behind locked doors there arent things "we" dont know about then I´ll agree.

Tell me one thing that's going on we don't know about, and I might go with this. Unfortunately that kind of argument is usually shared by people with tin foil hats convinced the government is run by aliens, and 9/11 was arranged by the Dutch Royal Family. I can accept some things are kept from the general population by various governments, but I find it hard to reconcile that with the government deliberately keeping a cure for cancer out of the public knowledge.

Ah, so they magically got this super tech from their masters. Ok.
To bad they were so stupid that they didnt ask for the magic miracle cure for radiation shielding (you know, the super hi-tech dirt, lead and bricks they somehow forgot to science-gap-invent while being busy building living metal bodies and super ark ships).

I think you assume too much knowledge of the physiology of the Necrontyr. For all we know, if they didn't receive a certain dose of background radiation, their skin would peel off, or they would become infertile. It's all too possible that there was a narrow balance to walk between too much radiation and too little. For example, if we get too much sunlight, our skin burns, but it's not healthy for us if our skin gets none at all. It could be a similar situation here, where immunising themselves against background radiation would screw up their bodies in some other way. I'm actually pretty sure something along these lines must be the case otherwise, what would there be to stop the Necrontyr simply ditching their main homeworld for another one? They could go somewhere with little to no radiation, thus extending their lives! If they didn't do this, there must be a reason, and think that reason is why it wouldn't be as simple as simply immunising themselves against radiation.

Just on a sidenote here, I believe I read somewhere that not all Necrontyr actually wanted to be placed in metal bodies. What happened was that the C'Tan slowly gained in power in Necrontyr society, and then they had their followers grab the non-believers, eat their souls, and transfer what was left to the metal robots first. The C'tan's followers then voluntarily gave themselves up. A bit like a religious movement. It wasn't so much the entire race deciding to become robots as the C'tan forcing it on half of them, because the other half worshipped them. Again, this makes sense.

EDIT: I just found the quote.

the C'tan offered the Necrontyr a great gift...at a terrible price. By giving themselves to the Star Gods utterly...the Necrontyr could pursue their vengeance of the old ones without fear fear or hesitation. So the messenger proclaimed, but despite it's honeyed words, the Necrontyr were riven by doubt. Those who had not surrendered to the Gods already were enjoined by the rest to submit, but could not be persuaded to make the giant leap of faith. It was only now the Deceivers true face began to show as it lured the unbelievers into the clutches of the faithful with promises of mediation and compromise. All were seized by the believers and delivered to their fate. Then the believers themselves were added to the glittering ranks of unliving machines....

So it really was a case of the religious necrontyr screwing over the rest of the race.

The necron home world might not have lead as an element so radiation shields might not be as easy as you think.

The presence of Lead is irrelevant. Fabricated materials can be used in radiation shielding.

Indeed, they would have *needed* some manner of protection to travel outside the protection of their planet's atmosphere.