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imweasel wrote:If counter-attack is exactly like charging, then why does the assaulter's defensive grenades not work? Because they say so? Then how does that make counter attack 'exactly like charging'?

Because an assaulting unit cannot get both the bonus for attacking and the bonus for defending. Did you read the full FAQ entry?

imweasel wrote:If counter-attack is exactly like charging, then why doesn't insane bravado work during counter-attack? Because they say so? The how does that make counter attack 'exactly like charging'?

Apparently Insane Bravado only works when Ragnar Blackmane assaults, not when his unit does.

Fetterkey wrote:Because an assaulting unit cannot get both the bonus for attacking and the bonus for defending. Did you read the full FAQ entry?

I certainly did. It's what makes me wonder on why people think that counter attack is 'just like charging'.

imweasel wrote:Apparently Insane Bravado only works when Ragnar Blackmane assaults, not when his unit does.

Oh, I see. Because gw says so.

It doesn't follow consistent rulings in the faq that should lead anyone to believe that counter attack is 'exactly like charging'.

Fetterkey wrote:

imweasel wrote:If counter-attack is exactly like charging, then why does the assaulter's defensive grenades not work? Because they say so? Then how does that make counter attack 'exactly like charging'?

Because an assaulting unit cannot get both the bonus for attacking and the bonus for defending. Did you read the full FAQ entry?

imweasel wrote:If counter-attack is exactly like charging, then why doesn't insane bravado work during counter-attack? Because they say so? The how does that make counter attack 'exactly like charging'?

Apparently Insane Bravado only works when Ragnar Blackmane assaults, not when his unit does.

Funnily enough, both gak on completely clear RaW.

Go Figure.

wyomingfox wrote: At this point, I am interpreting the following FAQ answer:
...
To be limmited in scope in only allowing FC to work with counterattacking and reaffirming that defensive grenades do not work against counter attacks.

That's about how I would interpret it as well. FC works because they say it does. Anything else that kicks in when you assault only works when you assault.

Odd, they say it does, for Grey Hunters. It doesn't work with anything else.

If you are gonna use the GW FAQ, use it properly, eh?

Do we really need to have the 'FAQ for one issue setting a precedent for other related issues' discussion again, already?

Gwar! wrote:Funnily enough, both gak on completely clear RaW.

Go Figure.

Hmm, perhaps this is because RaI > RaW in an FAQ intended to express the intent of the designers?

Fetterkey wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Funnily enough, both gak on completely clear RaW.

Go Figure.

Hmm, perhaps this is because RaI > RaW in an FAQ intended to express the intent of the designers?

Yes, because the Designers did a bang up job writing their FAQs.

Oh wait, most of them were written by Yakface, and the SW one was 50% stolen.

But of course, it's what the Designers wrote!

But yeah, as Insaniak says, let's drop this.

Gwaro you use the Imperial Guard FAQ for your Ogre Kingdoms Army?

Infact....I do, got a problem?

Anyways, I'll be going by the "you get the bonus from furious charge when you use counter-attack" thing, since it is that way in one of GW's FAQ's.

Its regarding the two USR's mostly, so its good enough for me.

insaniak wrote:Do we really need to have the 'FAQ for one issue setting a precedent for other related issues' discussion again, already?

How is there supposed to be a clear argument on precedent when the same issue is ruled in opposite directions in two similar cases?

Some one may as well put up a sticky on the reserve roll modifiers for the Tyranid codex now, since reserve roll modifiers stack in one codex and don't stack in another. So guess which precedent applies to multiple Lictors, or a Lictor and a reserve roll modying HQ.

We have four things for Counter-attack may count as assaulting: Counter-assault, Insane Bravado, defensive grenades and True Grit. GW's FAQ says 'Yes', 'No', 'No because we say so, but it would otherwise', and doesn't address the last one. Where the is the clear precedent in that? 'It applies in that situation because GW says so' is completely useless in any attempt to figure out the rules.

THAT'S why there's this negative backlash saying that the CA+FC ruling only applies in the exact situation and for the exact unit that the question specifies. My only consolation is that the next tournament around where I live is still six weeks off and there's a chance that the FAQ might be changed between now and then.

solkan wrote:How is there supposed to be a clear argument on precedent when the same issue is ruled in opposite directions in two similar cases?

The precedents provided by the FAQ are that FC works when counter attacking, and other abilities that work in similar ways do not.

The point is that these precedents would then apply to everyone. If you have FC, it works when counter attacking.



Don't get me wrong, the fact that they ruled one way for FC and another for Insane Bravado seems a little screwy to me too. But that's beside the point. The point I was making on precedents was that a ruling made one way in one FAQ can be used as a precedent when the same situation arises for a different army... unless GW subsequently rule differently for that army.

Fetterkey wrote:Apparently Insane Bravado only works when Ragnar Blackmane assaults, not when his unit does.

Hmmm, I hadn't interpreted it that way. The question asked if Ragnar's unit got the bonus for insane bravado when they counter assualted and GW said no Ragnar must assault. Therefore, I had interpretted it as counter-assault is not equal to an assault, therefore no stacking of counter charge with "insane bravado"... which is current RaW.

insaniak wrote:unless GW subsequently rule differently for that army.

So how in the world does precedent work again?

It's a standard. Standards don't work unless...there standards.

So you are saying use the same thing for other faq's and codices, except you can't because you have no idea what's going to happen.

Sorta like the inat faq.

imweasel wrote:So you are saying use the same thing for other faq's and codices, except you can't because you have no idea what's going to happen.

I'm not sure about you, but when I play 40K I use the rules I have now, rather than trying to divine what the rules may happen to be at some unspecified time in the future.

The SW sets a precedent for any other army that has the same combo. The fact that GW may decide to rule differently for other armies, or even change the rule for SW in the future has no bearing on that simple fact right now. The rules now are as they are.

insaniak wrote:The SW sets a precedent for any other army that has the same combo.

No, it doesn't. What it does is clarify how ONE unit in ONE army works. It does not apply to any other army. If it does, you have to start letting me use the Black Templar FAQ with Imperial Guard or Dark Eldar.

Gwar! wrote: If it does, you have to start letting me use the Black Templar FAQ with Imperial Guard or Dark Eldar.

Yes, that was my point. It was also my point the last time we had this discussion.

Why are we talking about SW in a thread about Grey Knights?

This thread is about GKs? Nobody has mentioned them since page one.

Basically the thread is about non-SW combining counter attack and non-attack-bonus-assault-bonuses. Basically, does the SW FAQ imply that counter attack triggers any bonus that would normally trigger from assaulting (which it implies on one hand, and denies with the other...). If it does, then Grey Knights do not get their bonus from true grit, as they may not use the bonus when assaulting. If counter attack does not count as assaulting, then grey knights can benefit both from true grit, and from counter attack. Given that the SW FAQ only specifies that the counter attack stacks with Ragnar's furious charge, but that it does not trigger his insane bravado, I think it's becoming clear that it is meant as a specific exception to the normal rules (though it was not clearly written as such). The implications for this is that a grey knight would receive both the counter attack bonus and the true grit bonus if they get charged, however they would not receive the furious charge bonus from straken.