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Frazzled wrote:Really, you shouldn't use Harry "he don't got no negra accent hep hep" Reid in any context to be taken seriously Sebster.
It amazing to me that in the 200+ years of the USA, most bills have managed to get support from both sides. That hasn't occurred since CapNTax. To blame everything on the Republicans is complete and utter nonsense.
Obama let the hard left run with this bill and this is what he got. instead of some real needed improvements we have this porkbarrel nonses thats going to raise taxes onthe Middle class in a big way (or at least the bill he supports). Kiss the House goodby in 2010 and President/Senate in 2012.
I'm out. This topic has been talked to death a hundred times.
I agree. There's a giant lack of bipartisanship on the side of Democracts in the House and Senate. An example if I remember correctly was when the You lie, outburst occured. From a direct result of Democrats going forward with closed meetings that didnt involve any GOP members from the April before.
Also, a lot of people don't seem to be able to read too well, or weren't able to at the time, but when Palin came out with her Death Panel remark it was due to the portion being in the bill before it was edited out.
you mean a closed door meeting that you wass about democratic policy was only for Democrats, gasp. That must mean that republicans also have closed door policy meetings, oh god the worlds going to end.
that death panel thing is about funds going to end of life consoling
Both sides lack have acted like children this entire debate, the current incarnation of the bill lost most of it's meet but it stil has important things like not allowing insurance companies from denying coverage for preexisting conditions, and preventing HMO's from dropping patients because they are sick or old
H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Balance, playtesting - a casual gamer craves not these things!" - Yoda, a casual gamer.
Three things matter in marksmanship -
location, location, location
MagickalMemories wrote:How about making another fist?
One can be, "Da Fist uv Mork" and the second can be, "Da Uvver Fist uv Mork."
Make a third, and it can be, "Da Uvver Uvver Fist uv Mork"
Eric
It amazing to me that in the 200+ years of the USA, most bills have managed to get support from both sides. That hasn't occurred since CapNTax. To blame everything on the Republicans is complete and utter nonsense.
They didn't have to deal with the new face of corporate news conservatism 200 years ago. Washington would not have been able to beat Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity, and thats ignoring conservative talk radio.
See next post.
Also, a lot of people don't seem to be able to read too well, or weren't able to at the time, but when Palin came out with her Death Panel remark it was due to the portion being in the bill before it was edited out.
That portion was never in the bill, and it's quite telling about our culture when even now people still think it was. Family doctor discussions about the event of death are not "death panels" nor are the discussions involved with ending coverage for the incurably terminally ill. Those are all things private insurance already did.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Wrexasaur wrote:The real question is how much those bills have changed, and what it is we are actually left with. After all of the misinformation from the past few months, and my lack of interest in reading such a massive piece of legislation, all I want is an accurate summary.
Whatever the hell is left of the original bills, fails to impress me in any way. So little seems to actually have been accomplished, that I honestly wonder how much will be left of all of it, come the next Pres. election.
Which is the staggering thing, to me. All significant reform has been steadily pulled from the bill, to the point where as I understand it we're left with basically correcting the most obvious failings of the system... and the right is still decrying this as far left legislation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JEB_Stuart wrote:Nobody in Congress that is for sure....
Given the inability of the DNC to properly summarise the bill for public consumption, or the GOP to make meaningful criticism based on the substance of the bill, that may be right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
VermGho5t wrote:Also, a lot of people don't seem to be able to read too well, or weren't able to at the time, but when Palin came out with her Death Panel remark it was due to the portion being in the bill before it was edited out.
That portion of the bill subsidised the efforts of an individual to formalise his wishes if he rendered incapable of expressing that desire himself. It was a purely voluntary option, and that support was available whether they wanted to express their desire to die with dignity or to have every possible piece of technology used on them to stay alive.
The effort by Palin and others to describe this as a death panel was either gross stupidity or a deliberate attempt to lie to the public. Your attempt after all this time to defend it is absurd.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/15 04:26:07
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
sebster wrote:Which is the staggering thing, to me. All significant reform has been steadily pulled from the bill, to the point where as I understand it we're left with basically correcting the most obvious failings of the system... and the right is still decrying this as far left legislation.
It's why we vote in representatives and don't use a direct democracy. The public by and large is neither studious nor involved enough to self govern. The unforunate side effect of representative democracy when combined with a deregulated news environment is the creation an information state where public officials concern themselves not with how well legislation works, but how good it looks. The breakdown of democracy now directly falls on the shoulders of the masses which it now, so unlike before, accurately represents.
Well said.
“It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood” -- Karl Popper
sebster wrote:
Given the inability of the DNC to properly summarise the bill for public consumption, or the GOP to make meaningful criticism based on the substance of the bill, that may be right.
The information has been made available. Really I simply think the problem is that the majority of the public is either unwilling, or unable to consume it. At least not in a manner which produces insightful commentary.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/15 07:02:27
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
sebster wrote:
Given the inability of the DNC to properly summarise the bill for public consumption, or the GOP to make meaningful criticism based on the substance of the bill, that may be right.
The information has been made available. Really I simply think the problem is that the majority of the public is either unwilling, or unable to consume it. At least not in a manner which produces insightful commentary.
Actually, that first summary is pretty good. Looks like everything that was in the last version of the bill I followed is there in the final copy. Ideally the summary would cut out the paragraphs and have 1-2 lines per point, keeping the thing under one page, but ultimately if you aren't willing to read two pages then you really don't belong in the debate (though I really question the logo - surely someone realised it looked like sperm?)
Anyhow, thanks for providing that, and I retract my claim on there being no decent summary of the reform out there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/15 06:44:52
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
sebster wrote:(though I really question the logo - surely someone realised it looked like sperm?)
Wow, no kidding. I didn't even see that until you mentioned it, but then I didn't even recall there being a logo at all. I guess its meant to be a spur of some sort?
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
I think its meant to be a stethescope. I think, at first I thought 'man that looks like sperm, it couldn't possibly be meant to be sperm, could it?' then 'I think maybe its meant to be a computer mouse' and then after about 10 seconds I figured it was probably a stethescope.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Proof of what? That I, along with many of my friends, disagree with the man on a political level? Ok, we do. The burden of proof lies in you; he who made such a haughty declaration. Indeed, you were all too hasty to put forth such a generalist statement with a quick scratch at the keyboard. Truly, there are some individuals who are exactly as you describe, but can you name their numbers, or even the percentage of the eligible voting population that they make up? Considering the number of people who wholeheartedly approve of Barack Obama's presidency and the policies of his administration, I could just as easily reverse your statement and declare, "A smart man that the people love because he has ideas to bring change to the established order that the public at large don't understand." I disagree with the president, as do many that I know, simply because we have one desire: to stop spending money we don't have! I like the man, I really do, but I don't care for his politics. I consider myself well informed and an intellectual. You may consider that in contradiction to my criticism, but on the same token I don't believe in true equality or in democracy. I have heard from you and others, those who tend to be of the leftist persuasion, the rantings of equality and brotherhood and all that sort of rubbish, but in the same breath declare your fellow man to be below you on an intellectual level. I find the whole thing both hypocritical and annoying. Dogma, like myself, doesn't even presume to hide his own presumptions, which is altogether honest and laudable IMHO. So to your request I retort: You first.
tblock1984 wrote:
dogma wrote:I'd agree with that in the sense that politics, for the people who don't study it seriously, tends to be more about brand loyalty and emotion than reason and information.
BINGO!
And I am sure that you are among the enlightened who is alone in a sea of dark ignorance. The tendency for people to throw others under the bus because of their own self-proclaimed superiority never ceases to amaze me. This annoyed me so much that I felt it double the deserved disdain, derision, denigration and disparagement from myself. This reply has been brought to you today by the letter D folks.
And now the unwashed masses proclaim:
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Henners91 wrote:
That's complete nonsense, this bill is going to SAVE money: Obama has actually stated his numbers in an address.
I mean, sorry, but when something like that is so blatantly wrong... it just absolutely destroys my faith in the neutrality of the media o.O (as I assume you've heard that rubbish somewhere)
The bill is unlikely to save money in the short term (10-15 years). It might save money over the long term through expanded care, and the resultant reduction of financial burden on hospitals. However, over the short term, it will cost more, not much more, but more; especially if we're only looking at government outlay.
Frazzled wrote:The Brit believes Obama. Thats cute.
Didn't you warn me for being that derisive? Maybe it wasn't you, but it was definitely a mod.
the Mods play by different rules on some inconsequential internet backwater message board? What?
Henners91 wrote:
That's complete nonsense, this bill is going to SAVE money: Obama has actually stated his numbers in an address.
I mean, sorry, but when something like that is so blatantly wrong... it just absolutely destroys my faith in the neutrality of the media o.O (as I assume you've heard that rubbish somewhere)
The bill is unlikely to save money in the short term (10-15 years). It might save money over the long term through expanded care, and the resultant reduction of financial burden on hospitals. However, over the short term, it will cost more, not much more, but more; especially if we're only looking at government outlay.
Frazzled wrote:The Brit believes Obama. Thats cute.
Didn't you warn me for being that derisive? Maybe it wasn't you, but it was definitely a mod.
the Mods play by different rules on some inconsequential internet backwater message board? What?
You say it like its a bad thing.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Wrexasaur wrote:The real question is how much those bills have changed, and what it is we are actually left with. After all of the misinformation from the past few months, and my lack of interest in reading such a massive piece of legislation, all I want is an accurate summary.
I to would like an "accurate" summary. But is this possible? Given the tendency of either party to spin things out of proportion.
The real problem is not so much the politician but the new media age in which we live. Internet society demands constant updates, so if something doesn't work instantaneously it's written off as a failure straight away.
Flashman's Theory of New Media Intolerance can also be applied to football managers, Strictly Come Dancing presenters and whichever actor happens to be playing James Bond.
Yeah, the Obamanation administration has been as transparent as the color black.
--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
I thought I was the classiest. make up your mind Shuma. If I wear a cool tophat and cane would that put me over the top?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Finally the excuse I needed. Quick Robin, to the haberdashery!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
It may not be the classiest statement but it's the truth.
His promise of a more open and transparent administration has been once again, another lie.
Ironic how Obamanation rushed the HCR Bill through behind closed doors so that nobody knew what was going on with it. feth, I bet even the people pushing it through don't know what those thousands of pages contain.
Rushing something behind closed doors to prevent anyone from stopping it or questioning it is not being very transparent.
--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
Quite right, quite right
And now for no reason in particular
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
His promise of a more open and transparent administration has been once again, another lie.
The final stretch of the talks being behind closed doors doesn't really do away with the fact that he set up several agencies for persistent online bill tracking, stimulus fund tracking, and campaign and lobby fund reform.
Ironic how Obamanation rushed the HCR Bill through behind closed doors so that nobody knew what was going on with it. feth, I bet even the people pushing it through don't know what those thousands of pages contain.
Yes. No one. People like you. Who didn't look at it when it was FULLY AVAILABLE ON LINE THE ENTIRE TIME. Regardless though, the reconciled bill is likely to look incredibly similar to the one that is already on public record, which you haven't looked at.
Rushing something behind closed doors to prevent anyone from stopping it or questioning it is not being very transparent.
More realistically it's being done behind closed doors because of statements comparing the bill to nazism and the general utter disinformation thats been conveyed to the public by mass media outlets. It's behind closed door because they tried to do it in the open and the American public is too fething lazy and reactionary to do anything but cry death panels for six months. I would have loved it to be public, but it probably would have just been a chance for more grandstanding on CSPAN, pulling the entire process down.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/15 19:03:52
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Howlingmoon wrote:
the Mods play by different rules on some inconsequential internet backwater message board? What?
Of course they do, that doesn't mean we shouldn't remind them when they are.
Especially since they tend to be fairly responsive to people who avoid exploding in irony every time they post about trolls, or internet tough guys.
I guess the question naturally arises, if Howlingmoon views this as "some inconsequential internet backwater message board," why does he deign to grace us with his presence? But that would derail this thread and we can't have any thread derailing now.
And now, a word from our sponsor.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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