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Ideologically, yes, all humans are equal. I, and the Human Rights thingie with me, think that one human life is worth as much as any other, in theory.
Biologically speaking, it's nonsense. Person A can run faster than person B. Person C can solve complex mathemathical equations, while person D cannot, but can produce mathemthically incredibly complex pleasing patterns with paint, a piece of canvas and a stick with some hairs on it.
And so on.Everybody's different, but everybody's an equally valid person.

Humans will never be equal till our society can sustain it.
Without balance of such inequality it will just lead to chaos if everyone demands absolute equality.

We arnt capable of utopia yet.

Agree with luna. Also As a step further, will we ever be if we are inherently unequal. Many a dreamed of utopian society has destroyed itself based upon human nature.

corpsesarefun wrote:Personally i do not believe all humans are equal as I am a firm follower of natural selection, Harsh as it sounds those who cannot survive in the wild are automatically inferior to those that can and the only way to test this is to put said person in said wild.

Starting with you.

sA

Humans aren't equal. We place a different value on people everyday of our lives. I value my wife more than anyone on these boards, and expect them to value me less than their real life friends and family. The issue becomes not one of whether humans are equal or not, but whether there is any impartial scale to measure them on.

When we were babies, we were all helpless, naked and cranky- yet we were not equal. Some of us were able to survive without medical intervention. Some of us weighed 6 pounds, while others weighed twice that! When we went home, we were laid down in a crib or a bassinet. That could have been in a mansion or a squalid ghetto apartment with 10 other people living in it, and neither was equal.

Our initial instruction in morals, education, and the proper way to act in society were provided by our parents. These parent were very different from every other set of parents out there. You can bet that the son of a Senator receives a very different outlook on life than the son of a garbageman.

Once we're out of the home, we go to schools. If we're in a good district, we may be taught by the finest educators the public school system has to offer. We may also encounter those who are just punching the clock until retirement. Those in private schools or military academies will, again, receive a very different education.

Finally, we come to the point where we are ready to be valued by society. At this point, we find a job and are told what we are worth. You could hire hundreds of me for every CEO out there- and those hundreds could not do the job as well as he could. Still, I'd like to think that if you put him in front of a high school classroom, you'd have inferior teaching as compared to what I can provide.

Even in that most basic aspect, our right to life, there are those who are not equal. If you kill someone out of anger and malice aforethought, then you are no longer equally entitled to life as the rest of us. If you rape someone, you will be imprisoned and forever regarded with institutionalized suspicion.

There was a man in Tampa that recently threw a baby out of a window, then picked it up and took it with him to the freeway. He threw it out of the window there while driving. When asked why, he replied "It's a dirty game". I do not believe that such an individual is equal to anyone any longer.

We all begin life with a different set of skills and abilities. What we choose to do with them will determine what we are like. One of the few things we will never achieve is equality with everyone.

Gitzbitah wrote:Humans aren't equal. We place a different value on people everyday of our lives. I value my wife more than anyone on these boards, and expect them to value me less than their real life friends and family. The issue becomes not one of whether humans are equal or not, but whether there is any impartial scale to measure them on.

When we were babies, we were all helpless, naked and cranky- yet we were not equal. Some of us were able to survive without medical intervention. Some of us weighed 6 pounds, while others weighed twice that! When we went home, we were laid down in a crib or a bassinet. That could have been in a mansion or a squalid ghetto apartment with 10 other people living in it, and neither was equal.

Our initial instruction in morals, education, and the proper way to act in society were provided by our parents. These parent were very different from every other set of parents out there. You can bet that the son of a Senator receives a very different outlook on life than the son of a garbageman.

Once we're out of the home, we go to schools. If we're in a good district, we may be taught by the finest educators the public school system has to offer. We may also encounter those who are just punching the clock until retirement. Those in private schools or military academies will, again, receive a very different education.

Finally, we come to the point where we are ready to be valued by society. At this point, we find a job and are told what we are worth. You could hire hundreds of me for every CEO out there- and those hundreds could not do the job as well as he could. Still, I'd like to think that if you put him in front of a high school classroom, you'd have inferior teaching as compared to what I can provide.

Even in that most basic aspect, our right to life, there are those who are not equal. If you kill someone out of anger and malice aforethought, then you are no longer equally entitled to life as the rest of us. If you rape someone, you will be imprisoned and forever regarded with institutionalized suspicion.

There was a man in Tampa that recently threw a baby out of a window, then picked it up and took it with him to the freeway. He threw it out of the window there while driving. When asked why, he replied "It's a dirty game". I do not believe that such an individual is equal to anyone any longer.

We all begin life with a different set of skills and abilities. What we choose to do with them will determine what we are like. One of the few things we will never achieve is equality with everyone.

Well said Gitzbitah,I have to say I agree with most of your points here.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I was contemplating life the other day, and a stunning revelation hit me; the vast majority of people who play Warhammer are intellectuals, myself among them.

No.

Yeah, that. Very much that. To be fair though, I used to have a fairly low bar for what constituted an academic (more or less thinking of it as someone who read and discussed issues) until I actually met some intellectuals. Them dudes knows some stuff.




To try and answer the OP's question, I think everyone recognises the importance of considering everyone equal before the law (whether or not that actually happens is a different issue). The bigger issue is whether we are to be considered equal as individuals, whether my abilities are equal to yours, and yours to some other guy's.

I would never make the claim that just because a person is bad at something they're likely to be good at some other task, that all seems like some ridiculous exercise in GURPS style points balancing. But it's also true that we're very complex creatures, athleticism alone has so many different elements; strength, aerobics, fine motor control, spatial awareness, etc, that it becomes very hard to decide exactly who is better and who is worse than anyone else.

And that's only for athleticism - consider intelligence with its countless forms - LT and ST memory, problem solving, language, humour, how do you decide how important each one is. Without some weighting system you'd never be able to really say how smart a person is.

Then you consider the rest... If a person is smart and athletic, but a coward, are they more or less than the averagely intelligent brave man? How do you account for kindness?

We're not equal, but deciding who is greater or lesser than anyone else is a completely subjective thing. The practical solution is to figure we're not equal, but it'd be an arbitrary and pointless exercise to think in those terms. Better just to take people as they are, recognise their strengths and weaknesses and move on.

sebster wrote:I would never make the claim that just because a person is bad at something they're likely to be good at some other task, that all seems like some ridiculous exercise in GURPS style points balancing.

Some people seem dead set on this being how the real world works. The next time someone tells me that muscle makes you slower I'm going to slap them.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Some people seem dead set on this being how the real world works. The next time someone tells me that muscle makes you slower I'm going to slap them.

It's an easy trick to fall into. I've been caught out assuming someone was crap at sport because they were smart, and been absolutely thrashed.

And I don't believe there's a guy out there who hasn't mistakenly assumed a pretty girl was dumb at least once.

All lives are equal.
It's what we do with them that affects the balance.

This clears up the issue I think.



Let freedom ring. Yea Humanity

Frazz is soo sarcastic, I don't know whether or not he is trying to be:

A) sarcastic, and sorta disagreeing with MLK,

B) or he really does believe that.

I'll put my left testacle on A.

Are we equal? On one thing only. Every person on this planet has these rights, as said so convienently by the Declaration of Independance:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

So then therefore, We are all equal, as much as frazz doesn't want it, we are ALL equal.

No we aren't.

we are equal in the sense that all human beings have the right to freedom of speech religion, assembly, protest, media, the right to be treated fairly, tnot to be judged because of skin color or race, but because of character. I passionately believe taht, it's waht i meant. Are we equal in the sense of skills? hell no. I paint better that my sister, she speaks better arabic than me, etc.

So which is it to be - Martin Luther King's 'I have a dream...' speech, or the Declaration of Independence?

They are two completely different things. Things which relate to America. America is not the world.

Not everyone has those rights. So no, not everyone is equal.

My argument here isn't quite intellectual, Buuut....

In case it hasn't been stated before by one of the others(You'll know who you are by this statement)
When Heimdall came to Midgard, under Odin's behest to improve the lot of man, there came to be three and a half, maybe four kinds of Man in this world.
The Thrall, simple and unmotivated, easily distracted by basal urges and supposed needs.
The Carl is motivated and proud of his craftsmanship, carrying himself as an expert or professional in his field of work or study.
The Jarl is that leader of men, either loved or vindicated by his righteous actions and thus followed, trusted to lead truly.
The Skald is the leader of men's souls, respected and strange to the three prior.

In today's modern world, you can clearly see these four kinds of Man. Be they man or woman, they are there.
The thrall woman can be likened to Peg Bundy, as can the thrall man to be likened to Al Bundy. Would you consider yourself to be the same as these pair?
The carl woman might not even be a professional in the common sense, but instead a housemaker who goes about her duties and chores with love and dedication.
The carl man too, might merely be a grease-covered mechanic with a wad of chewing tobacco distorting his lower lip but he knows his profession well.
The jarl man might not be that guy you see on the television set every night addressing these people or those people; he could simply be the guy who knows how to get the most out of the people around him, and rewards those who contributed justly.
The jarl woman would not be considered to be "that stuffy *&^%$" by any right-minded person, but rather that trusted team leader who honestly earns her position.
The Skald might not even be a member of any church, rather just that one person that everyone in their community seeks counsel with and whose word is weighed heavily.

As I said, this isn't an intellectual entry on this subject. merely a philosphical one.
If someone a little more familiar with Jungian archetypes wants a crack at this, Please do.

The thrall's position is important, because it's uneconomical to press carls into tilling the land when the carl is better suited at something else productive and technical. The jarl might not know the first thing of what his carls do, but knows how to use his carls and thralls before him. The skald isn't interested in any of this drek; they're happier with their role.

isthatmycow wrote:Frazz is soo sarcastic, I don't know whether or not he is trying to be:

A) sarcastic, and sorta disagreeing with MLK,

B) or he really does believe that.

I'll put my left testacle on A.

Are we equal? On one thing only. Every person on this planet has these rights, as said so convienently by the Declaration of Independance:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

So then therefore, We are all equal, as much as frazz doesn't want it, we are ALL equal.

I hold this speech and the ideals within it to be representative of one of the top 10 things ever said by man anywhere, anytime. I too dream of that time and see it coming into being. My children are better than I was. I am better than my parents were. King speaks of heaven on earth. It can be achieved. It will be achieved.

I would have to say not all humans are created equal. That no matter what your mother told you, you can't do everything you set your mind too. Some people are just better at certain things, than others. And the misconception that being bad at one thing, means your talent is elsewhere is also false. There are people that exist, that are mediocre at everything. Some of us are just better than others. There isn't anything to do with race or gender, but it's just a fact of life. While we should all share equal and unalienable rights, the delusion that every man is capable of everything with enough grit and determination is a pipedream.

God made men, Sam Colt made them equal.

No. All humans are not equal.

Remember, 49% of the population is below average.

darkkt wrote:
Remember, 49% of the population is below average.

Outliers can significantly lower the arithmetic mean such that the majority of the population actually lies above it.

Interesting, but there are outliers on both sides...

I would say there are significantly less Stephen Hawkings than there are Cleatus the Slack Jawed Yokels.

Maybe it would be correct to say that all people are created equal (+ or - 6 standard deviations).





(and that about taps out my memory of statistics).

darkkt wrote:Interesting, but there are outliers on both sides...

Maybe it would be correct to say that all people are created equal (+ or - 6 standard deviations).

I think the central issue is that it would be nearly impossible to come up with a single quantitative measure of individual quality such that we can determine the actual significance of potential outliers.

Of course, that won't stop people from trying.

Some people are created with extra toes, or merged with an unfortunate twin's body.

Some are created in test tubes, and others are created by Hollywood.

Frazzled was created by pouring Jack Daniels into a rusty washtub and leaving it out under a full moon.

I think the point is not any one's idea of how, where or when creation happens, but whether the equality the OP is talking about is social, spiritual, physical or otherwise.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Some people are created with extra toes, or merged with an unfortunate twin's body.

Some are created in test tubes, and others are created by Hollywood.

Frazzled was created by pouring Jack Daniels into a rusty washtub with a bowl of queso and leaving it out under a full moon.

I think the point is not any one's idea of how, where or when creation happens, but whether the equality the OP is talking about is social, spiritual, physical or otherwise.

Corrected your typo.

Frazzled, you're made in part, of fondue?

Wrexasaur wrote:Frazzled, you're made in part, of fondue?

Sucker please. Queso, food of the gods and gun toting bandits everywhere.

Spiked Fondue? Is this a good idea, or a shortcut to third degree burns?

Albatross wrote:So which is it to be - Martin Luther King's 'I have a dream...' speech, or the Declaration of Independence?

They are two completely different things. Things which relate to America. America is not the world.

Not everyone has those rights. So no, not everyone is equal.

But people should be equal in the sense of human dignity and liberty. why should someone from asia have less rights than some one from afrcie? why should some from Europe have more rights and freedom than someone from africa? the question here, is not whether or not, we are equal in life, (wealth, health, wisdom, properity, etc.) cuase the ansewr is painfully obvious, no in those categories we are not. But in race, religion, freedom of speech, assembly, press, human dignity we all should be given the same amount of treatment, same amount of rights and freedoms, do people always have, of course not. but the point is, they should.