How many chaos players in your area have jumped ship to SW or BA?

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**Legion**

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Huron vs. Vulcan is an unfair comparison. Huron is really no big deal, where as Vulcan is arguably the best Codex Marine HQ choice and a bargain for what he does.

Let's look at the units which actually do the killing:

Chaos Terminators vs. Imperial Terminators. Chaos Terminators are cheaper, can use marks and powerweapons as well as be upgraded to champions, can take combimeltas, powerfists, etc. They're far more versatile, and can be taken in smaller squads. The only thing they don't get is TH/SS.

Let's look at anti-mech squads. Chosen w/ 4 meltaguns vs... nothing. Nothing in the vanilla Marine dex has anything that can squeeze so many meltaguns in a squad except for Sternguard with combimeltas. Big deal. Overpriced and one hit wonders.

Let's look at troops choices. Vanilla Marines have a couple choices: Tactical Marines or uh...scouts...Chaos Marines have a dedicated assault unit (Berzerkers), a dedicated tarpit (Plague Marines), a dedicated shooty unit (Noise Marines), and a dedicated overpriced unit (1k sons, jk btw). Then they have diet versions of all of these via marks.

The only important thing Vanilla Marines can field, which CSM cannot, IMO anyway is Land Speeders. The rest is just fluff and stuff. As far as Nuts n Bolts units, they're far more versatile. The independent characters may suck but ICs aren't what wins you the game. You can field 2 as HQ choices and they're all expensive. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have 2 Lash Sorcerors than 1 Marneus Calgar.

Vanilla marines get a codex each for their main legions (in addition to the vanilla one), with god knows how many options and variations; chaos marines get a squad each. So your argument, while not necessarily incorrect, is fundamentally moot.

I think the main concern for most CSM players is really that the codex is not underpowered, but fething dull. Personally I think the 3.5 codex was good, but confusing and annoying; and GWs main failing was to take the (much needed) de-cluttering process way too far, failing horribly at finding a balance between making an interesting army with lots of options and a user-friendly army book.

The most frustrating things about it are that the problems with the current dex seem really pretty simple to resolve; and that when GW deliver a subpar product, their customers have to wait years for the problem to be fixed.

That said, even though the current dex is douchetastic, i've played Chaos since rogue trader and i'd rather stick needles in my eyes than play the stinking loyalist filth, so i'll stick with it and hope they do better next time, not like i'm going to lose sleep about it anyway.

Legion.

**Melissia**

A handfull of really good choices is all you need to win tournaments.

**Kurgash**

Melissia wrote:A handfull of really good choices is all you need to win tournaments.

Pretty much that. Never found the new 5th codexes so scary as people say, get to grips, smash aside, profit.

**karimabuseer**

Legion wrote:
NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Huron vs. Vulcan is an unfair comparison. Huron is really no big deal, where as Vulcan is arguably the best Codex Marine HQ choice and a bargain for what he does.

Let's look at the units which actually do the killing:

Chaos Terminators vs. Imperial Terminators. Chaos Terminators are cheaper, can use marks and powerweapons as well as be upgraded to champions, can take combimeltas, powerfists, etc. They're far more versatile, and can be taken in smaller squads. The only thing they don't get is TH/SS.

Let's look at anti-mech squads. Chosen w/ 4 meltaguns vs... nothing. Nothing in the vanilla Marine dex has anything that can squeeze so many meltaguns in a squad except for Sternguard with combimeltas. Big deal. Overpriced and one hit wonders.

Let's look at troops choices. Vanilla Marines have a couple choices: Tactical Marines or uh...scouts...Chaos Marines have a dedicated assault unit (Berzerkers), a dedicated tarpit (Plague Marines), a dedicated shooty unit (Noise Marines), and a dedicated overpriced unit (1k sons, jk btw). Then they have diet versions of all of these via marks.

The only important thing Vanilla Marines can field, which CSM cannot, IMO anyway is Land Speeders. The rest is just fluff and stuff. As far as Nuts n Bolts units, they're far more versatile. The independent characters may suck but ICs aren't what wins you the game. You can field 2 as HQ choices and they're all expensive. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have 2 Lash Sorcerors than 1 Marneus Calgar.

Vanilla marines get a codex each for their main legions (in addition to the vanilla one), with god knows how many options and variations; chaos marines get a squad each. So your argument, while not necessarily incorrect, is fundamentally moot.

I think the main concern for most CSM players is really that the codex is not underpowered, but fething dull. Personally I think the 3.5 codex was good, but confusing and annoying; and GWs main failing was to take the (much needed) de-cluttering process way too far, failing horribly at finding a balance between making an interesting army with lots of options and a user-friendly army book.

The most frustrating things about it are that the problems with the current dex seem really pretty simple to resolve; and that when GW deliver a subpar product, their customers have to wait years for the problem to be fixed.

That said, even though the current dex is douchetastic, i've played Chaos since rogue trader and i'd rather stick needles in my eyes than play the stinking loyalist filth, so i'll stick with it and hope they do better next time, not like i'm going to lose sleep about it anyway.

Legion.

Melissia wrote:A handfull of really good choices is all you need to win tournaments.

Kurgash wrote:
Melissia wrote:A handfull of really good choices is all you need to win tournaments.

Pretty much that. Never found the new 5th codexes so scary as people say, get to grips, smash aside, profit.

QFT

**kronk**

One.

**candy.man**

Funny enough, while legion fans will probably have to wait for a new dex, if GW were to release a PDF that just had 5th edition rebalanced point costs and rules of the current book, the rules would become much more useable and entertaining. Imagine being able to run T6 Nurgle bikers and not pay the earth or using a Khorne Daemon Weapon that is not broken/mathematically unusable.

**Spellbound**

Yeah they really don't like having pdfs and WD articles anymore. People complained that it was annoying having to lug around 15 copies of magazines, or when player A came to the store with his new printout that player B didn't have because he hadn't checked the website, he had an advantage. Daemon weapons need big fixes, as do several units' point costs. But ah well.

**sexiest_hero**

We'd take pdf army lists like the BA had. I'd kill for a Nightlords PDF list.

**candy.man**

The way I see it is that an update is an update. A new codex will take GW years to roll out.

**karimabuseer**

A codex takes 2 years of development, as does a miniature cast

**Lord-Loss**

I don't like when people call themselves "true" chaos players cause they play the gakky current codex. I'm a true chaos player, I havn't been able to play any army but chaos since I've started, I've considered other armies but I always come back to Chaos.

I love the style of my SW count as Chaos list, it's filled with awesome assault units backed by coolio assault troops with firesupport.

I kind of start to obsess about my lists after a while, I can't play a Chaos list, I've tried lots, but It's too dull.

Once I had my SW count as Chaos, I didn't even think about switching to BA, I'm very happy with the options I have and how khorny they are.

**Slarg232**

Lord-Loss wrote:I don't like when people call themselves "true" chaos players cause they play the gakky current codex. I'm a true chaos player, I havn't been able to play any army but chaos since I've started, I've considered other armies but I always come back to Chaos.

I love the style of my SW count as Chaos list, it's filled with awesome assault units backed by coolio assault troops with firesupport.

I kind of start to obsess about my lists after a while, I can't play a Chaos list, I've tried lots, but It's too dull.

Once I had my SW count as Chaos, I didn't even think about switching to BA, I'm very happy with the options I have and how khorny they are.

I hate to say it, but thats because we are "True Chaos Players". Dark Eldar haven't had an update in forever, but people still play them. So when the new Dark Eldar Codex comes out, all the true Dark Eldar players will have a blast, because they have been using that old codex. They haven't gone with an Eldar Counts as Dark Eldar force. It's the same thing with Chaos, and every other army out there. If your a "True" follower of the dark gods, you would use the Chaos Codex.

Besides, don't the SW have the supposed best long range unit in the game, meq-wise? Not very Khorney.

**Lord-Loss**

You lack knowledge of Khorne young one.

Khorne doesn't give a rats ass where the blood flows from, aslong as it flows.

Splitting people apart with a chainsword produces as much blood as pounding them to death with Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers.

Comparing DE and Eldar is hardly similar to the Chaos and Space Marine Chapter Codex connection. BA are like a loyalist version of the Night Lords with their playstyle, the same can be applied to SW and Khorne armies, but only with some aspects of the playstyle.

**karimabuseer**

Slarg232 wrote:
Lord-Loss wrote:I don't like when people call themselves "true" chaos players cause they play the gakky current codex. I'm a true chaos player, I havn't been able to play any army but chaos since I've started, I've considered other armies but I always come back to Chaos.

I love the style of my SW count as Chaos list, it's filled with awesome assault units backed by coolio assault troops with firesupport.

I kind of start to obsess about my lists after a while, I can't play a Chaos list, I've tried lots, but It's too dull.

Once I had my SW count as Chaos, I didn't even think about switching to BA, I'm very happy with the options I have and how khorny they are.

I hate to say it, but thats because we are "True Chaos Players". Dark Eldar haven't had an update in forever, but people still play them. So when the new Dark Eldar Codex comes out, all the true Dark Eldar players will have a blast, because they have been using that old codex. They haven't gone with an Eldar Counts as Dark Eldar force. It's the same thing with Chaos, and every other army out there. If your a "True" follower of the dark gods, you would use the Chaos Codex.

Besides, don't the SW have the supposed best long range unit in the game, meq-wise? Not very Khorney.

Hi fives!

Lord-Loss wrote:You lack knowledge of Khorne young one.

Khorne doesn't give a rats ass where the blood flows from, aslong as it flows.

Splitting people apart with a chainsword produces as much blood as pounding them to death with Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers.

Comparing DE and Eldar is hardly similar to the Chaos and Space Marine Chapter Codex connection. BA are like a loyalist version of the Night Lords with their playstyle, the same can be applied to SW and Khorne armies, but only with some aspects of the playstyle.

Coward! Off with his head

**Slarg232**

Lord-Loss wrote:You lack knowledge of Khorne young one.

Khorne doesn't give a rats ass where the blood flows from, aslong as it flows.

Splitting people apart with a chainsword produces as much blood as pounding them to death with Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers.

Comparing DE and Eldar is hardly similar to the Chaos and Space Marine Chapter Codex connection. BA are like a loyalist version of the Night Lords with their playstyle, the same can be applied to SW and Khorne armies, but only with some aspects of the playstyle.

While it is true that he cares not from wence blood flows, only that it flows, he is also a god of combat. Bloodthirsters are not just savage beings, they are also honorable. He cares not only for blood, he cares for physical prowess and being a better warrior than your opponent. You can hardly be better than your opponent physically if you shoot him half a mile away.

And I wasn't comparing DE and Eldar to Chaos and SM in playstyle, I was saying that you could technically do the same with DE and Eldar. The people who proxied Dark Eldar as an Eldar list would be the same as Chaos Space Marines being proxied for a SM list. Yeah sure, they both play Dark Eldar, but one is a more..... hardcore? Dark Eldar fan than the other. Just my thoughts on the matter.

**poipo32**

None to my knowledge, the chaos codex isn't bad it's flavorless.

**Lord-Loss**

But the playstyle difference between Eldar and DE is pretty huge really man, or so I think. The playstyle difference between a TWC heay SW list and a average Khorne list is similar. The similarity between the traitor legions and the Space Marine Chapters are huge.

To put it simpler, I simply can't stand the current Codex, I love everything about chaos and all that is Chaos, but the codex is terrible.
I don’t mind how anybody represents their Khorne army. People represent their Khorne armies to what they believe Khorne represents, because Khorne is something different to every person. To some people it must shout “Sit back and shoot – The less troops lost the more to fight another day and claim more blood” or maybe “Hardcore Assault – The best way to play Khorne is to charge ahead and make sure everything, sometimes even your own troops, die” The codex is gakky and any attempt I’ve made to get a proper competitive Khorne army, have ended in failure. With the SW dex I have a army which I feel Khorne represents, I have a competitive list, I have cool models and awesome assault units!

**Slarg232**

Lord-Loss wrote:But the playstyle difference between Eldar and DE is pretty huge really man, or so I think. The playstyle difference between a TWC heay SW list and a average Khorne list is similar. The similarity between the traitor legions and the Space Marine Chapters are huge.

To put it simpler, I simply can't stand the current Codex, I love everything about chaos and all that is Chaos, but the codex is terrible.
I don’t mind how anybody represents their Khorne army. People represent their Khorne armies to what they believe Khorne represents, because Khorne is something different to every person. To some people it must shout “Sit back and shoot – The less troops lost the more to fight another day and claim more blood” or maybe “Hardcore Assault – The best way to play Khorne is to charge ahead and make sure everything, sometimes even your own troops, die” The codex is gakky and any attempt I’ve made to get a proper competitive Khorne army, have ended in failure. With the SW dex I have a army which I feel Khorne represents, I have a competitive list, I have cool models and awesome assault units!

Fair enough, I see what your saying and I respect it, but still, the most "hardcore" (How much I hate saying that, but it's the only word I know that would sufficiently cover what I am tryingt to say) Chaos fans would use the codex, not a counts as army.

**Deuce11**

I never thought of Emperor's Children using BA dex...genius!

**Jayden63**

Slarg232 wrote:
Fair enough, I see what your saying and I respect it, but still, the most "hardcore" (How much I hate saying that, but it's the only word I know that would sufficiently cover what I am tryingt to say) Chaos fans would use the codex, not a counts as army.

This I have to disagree with. Its possible to be fan of something and still say it sucks and refuse to use it. I'm a huge Spider-man fan. The first two movies were awesome, the third one sucked. Saying that doesn't take away my fan club membership card, all it does is makes me a person with an opinion.

I'm a huge fan of Chaos and I'm saying the new codex, in how it presents Chaos, sucks rocks. Doesn't mean I'm no longer a fan.

Just because I refuse to use the current codex to represent my chaos force. A chaos force that has years of history behind it, doesn't mean I'm not a fan of my chaos army. But if I can't make my army work in the new codex, I am no less a fan of Chaos by using something that better represents what I already have spent years at building.

Truthfully, I'd much rather keep my 3.5 build to play Chaos than count as BA. But since the current codex doesn't even let me use the army as it was designed to function. And I can't take a 3.5 build to a tournament, if I still want to use 300 dollars of models, then I better find something that does.

**Kurgash**

I use the chaos codex because really, Kharn. That is all there is to it. Kharn.