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I play Chaoszilla, so really, there's not much point in changing.

Nitros14 wrote:
Again, I think the reaction against it comes most harshly from people who played with the old 3rd edition Codex. That book was twice as long and had so much cool stuff and wacky special rules and Chaos Legion specific army lists that they cropped out. Oh and the 'Eternal Hatred' rule that prevented mixing Khorne/Slaanesh and Nurgle/Tzeentch. And the 'Favoured Unit' rule that let you upgrade Aspiring Champions for free/+1 on reserves rolls if their unit number was equal to their God's Sacred Number. And a lot more cool God Specific lore and Books of Chaos.

P.S. Vehicle God dedications. Land Raiders of Tzeentch with Coruscating Warp Flame. The Tzeentch power 'Twisting Path' that let you gain victory points by implanting psychic suggestions into your opponents mind to achieve some ineffable goal.

Yeah, it's definitely less spicey but no less spicey than most other codices. The game's just become less crazy overall.

I mean, somewhere out there, there's a guy crying about not being able to use his Squat army anymore. And my Swooping Hawk exarch with the Vortex Grenade hasn't helped me out since 2nd edition. Adapt, Overcome, and Play Specialist Games for nostalgia.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:I don't see where all the hate for the Chaos Space Marines dex comes from. There are some very competitive builds. It may not be *as* competitive as Blood Angels but there's more to 40k than writing lists.

Skarboy wrote:I play Chaoszilla, so really, there's not much point in changing.

qft

i was a chaos player then i jumped to SM, BA,DA, BT

People hate the current CSM book because when you compare it to an imperial MEQ book, there is a greater choice of units and upgrades, for less points (and even less $$$ in some cases). Take this example, 170 points for Huron Blackheart who has a powerfist, powerweapon, heavy flamer, a 5+ inv save and warptime. Vulcan costs 190 points and has a master crafted str 6 power weapon, a 3+ inv save, a heavy flamer and makes all melta and flamer weapons in the army twin linked.

As well as this, an ordinary SM captain can take both a fist and a powerweapon at the same time where as a Chaos lord can only have one. An SM captain has more wargear choices full stop then a Chaos lord. The entire SW army has acute senses and counter attack and can get eternal warrior for their generic lord. When you compare the CSM book with others, you can’t help but understand why people are jumping ship.

I'm not QQing. My Nightlords army was filled with full groups of raptors 4 units worth (you can have 4 fast attack in a night lords army) and only 1 heavy support, because that the way it had to be done. I spenmt a lot of money in my army, and didn't use any daemons as per the fluff. the 4th edition codex, removed my 4th fat attack choice and made my chaos lord suck. I had to try to find the money for oblits. adding more money I had already spent buying 60+ Nightlord marines (Who cost more). Now with the BA codex, I can have a leader who is almost on par with my old chaos lord. I can use my four units of raptors again. I don't care how powerful or not the BA codex turns out to be, it lets me play my army the way they used to play and the way I got into Nightlord fluff in the first place. The chaos codex took my extra fast attack, HQ, and playstyle, and the BA codex gave it back/

Im using BA now as well. I dont necessarily think my list is better, just a lot more fun. I'll never switch books or buy an army for power.

I played a few games with Codex: Blood Angels Codex, and then back to playing my beakies as Codex: Space Marines. Mind you, I kinda prefer playing my bunnies, my Chaos Space Marines, more so I think I might reconfigure my beakies as Chaos Space Marines.

I'll never say that the current CSM codex is weak. You can get some real power out of it. But they took away all the fun as well. No more specific god gifts, no more inner rivalry.

For example lets look at Slannesh (my army)

Current codex, +1 Init
Old codex - Warp scream which lowered enemy Initiative by 1. Net game effect, none really. Net fluff difference huge. Now noise marines are just faster, but in the old codex their battlecrys disorented their opponents giving them an edge in battle. One sounds all sinister and actually threatening, the other well very vanilla in all respects and doesn't really have a chaosy fluffy reason for the increased speed.

Then to add insult to injury 80% of everything they took out of the Chaos codex they gave to the Imperials.

We lost all Vet skills, imperials gained tank hunter, FC, Etc.
We lost the ability to make dreads/defliers AV13, imperials gained Ironclads
We lost force org modifications, imperials gained tons of special characters that allowed different organizations.

And the list goes on. The worst part of all is that under the current rule set, looking at what codexs have come out now. Many of the "broken" issues that the old codex had now would just seem par for the course. I'd really like to see an Iron Warriors army win an objective mission game with only two sets of 5 CSM.

candy.man wrote:People hate the current CSM book because when you compare it to an imperial MEQ book, there is a greater choice of units and upgrades, for less points (and even less $$$ in some cases). Take this example, 170 points for Huron Blackheart who has a powerfist, powerweapon, heavy flamer, a 5+ inv save and warptime. Vulcan costs 190 points and has a master crafted str 6 power weapon, a 3+ inv save, a heavy flamer and makes all melta and flamer weapons in the army twin linked.

As well as this, an ordinary SM captain can take both a fist and a powerweapon at the same time where as a Chaos lord can only have one. An SM captain has more wargear choices full stop then a Chaos lord. The entire SW army has acute senses and counter attack and can get eternal warrior for their generic lord. When you compare the CSM book with others, you can’t help but understand why people are jumping ship.

Huron vs. Vulcan is an unfair comparison. Huron is really no big deal, where as Vulcan is arguably the best Codex Marine HQ choice and a bargain for what he does.

Let's look at the units which actually do the killing:

Chaos Terminators vs. Imperial Terminators. Chaos Terminators are cheaper, can use marks and powerweapons as well as be upgraded to champions, can take combimeltas, powerfists, etc. They're far more versatile, and can be taken in smaller squads. The only thing they don't get is TH/SS.

Let's look at anti-mech squads. Chosen w/ 4 meltaguns vs... nothing. Nothing in the vanilla Marine dex has anything that can squeeze so many meltaguns in a squad except for Sternguard with combimeltas. Big deal. Overpriced and one hit wonders.

Let's look at troops choices. Vanilla Marines have a couple choices: Tactical Marines or uh...scouts...Chaos Marines have a dedicated assault unit (Berzerkers), a dedicated tarpit (Plague Marines), a dedicated shooty unit (Noise Marines), and a dedicated overpriced unit (1k sons, jk btw). Then they have diet versions of all of these via marks.

The only important thing Vanilla Marines can field, which CSM cannot, IMO anyway is Land Speeders. The rest is just fluff and stuff. As far as Nuts n Bolts units, they're far more versatile. The independent characters may suck but ICs aren't what wins you the game. You can field 2 as HQ choices and they're all expensive. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have 2 Lash Sorcerors than 1 Marneus Calgar.

@Jayden63
Besides the above you mentioned, some of the things I miss was Noise Marine bikers and havocs. I also miss proper daemon weapons, daemonic upgrades (all the passive upgrades that the current SW dex seems very similar to the 3.5 Chaos dex) and old school vehicle upgrades. The old 3.5 dex strangely enough is equal in power to current 5th edition MEQ books.

The problem with the current book is that it is boring and missing the flavour discussed above. Sure if you play a "standard" spiky marine list, you will be victorious. Deviate from this a little bit and the CSM dex punishes you.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Chaos Terminators vs. Imperial Terminators. Chaos Terminators are cheaper, can use marks and powerweapons as well as be upgraded to champions, can take combimeltas, powerfists, etc. They're far more versatile, and can be taken in smaller squads. The only thing they don't get is TH/SS.

I'm not going to pick apart everything, but this one stood out. CT are only cheaper than Termies if you do nothing. But if you buy them powerfists, that Imperial Termies have to start, they cost the same. Likewise goes for Lightning Claws for Assault Terms. Add onto that they don't have the 3 Special Rules all SM have. They also can't get a good assault cannon, only a horrible reaper cannon. They can't get a really nice TH/SS as you said. No missile launcher. So they get inferior weapons and weapon choices and default abilities but start out cheaper and have the option of buying an icon. That's why they are used as termicides, because you can field a small number of them cheaply and just send them off to die and hopefully take something out that's more valuable. But you know, this is an elite choice, not a fast attack. The cheapest termicide squad is going to cost 105 for 3 + combi meltas. For that SM can get a Dreadnought as their Elite choice...

BA and SW are, in general, slightly stronger than CSM, esp. for infantry heavy lists. Other MEQ books represent extreme lists better than CSM, things like all bikes, all jump, all terminator, etc.

I use the SW rules to play my Iron Warriors terminators as Loganwing. that list can't be done with chaos.

@ Nuggz: I would like to say that Slaanesh Noise Marines are just as mean, if not more so than Khorne Berserkers. Noise Marines get a Doom Siren, which is probably one of the most powerful, man-held flamer template weapons in the game. Couple their initiative boost with a power weapon, and Noise Marines will beat out Berserkers almost every time. Now, this is less so if berserkers get the charge, and more so if Noiseys get it, but still.

Going Off Topic for a second, but what they need to do, if they are unwilling to make 50 bazillion codices for Chaos Marines like they do for Nilla Marines, they need to add options and everything we had back in 3.5 into what we get now. We need options for fielding Slaaneshi Havocs with four Blastmasters, or Nurgle Bikers, but yet still be able to take a "regular" Chaos Space Marine army. Icons don't count, you kill the Icon Bearer and the unit loses its ability. Even if GW doesn't love us as much as the Marines, they should at least put as much time into us.....

So, this might get lost but its a good thread to ask for ideas.

Make me an army.

Here is what I have, they all came from my 3.5 Emperor's Children. Using these models make me a legal competitive counts as army. You can use any codex you like but, you must follow WYSIWYG as closely as possible. For example, the damonettes cannot represent any model that has a shooting weapon. The only exception is the defiler which can be subbed for any shooty tank or twin CC dreadnaught.

x2) marine with power weapon / plasma pistol
x2) marine with plasma pistol / ccw
x1) marine with bolter
x4) marine with blastmaster (can sub for any heavy weapon)
x1) marine with power weapon / bolt pistol
x1) marine with powerfist / bolt pistol
x7) marine with bolt pistol / ccw
x2) marine with melta gun
x1) marine with plasma gun
x1) marine with Lascannon
x4) marine with sonic blasters (can sub for any heavy weapon not used by blastmaster)
x1) marine with bike
x2) marine with bike with special weapon type 1 (can be ignored in general it was a sonic blaster)
x2) marine with bike with special weapon type 2
x1) marine with bike with lightning claw
x1) marine with bike with powerweapon / plasmagun
x1) deflier
x1) Preditor with TL lascannon / lascannon sponsoons
x1) preditor with TL lascannon / Heavy Bolter sponsoons
x1) dreadnaught with two DCCWs
x2) Rhinos
x1) Winged Deamon Prince
x18) Damonettes

So who is up for the challenge? Good luck. Points isn't really an issue, but make it as full/high as possible (any one could make just a chapter master with two units of five tac marines). I'm curious what people will come up with. You don't have to use all the models of course and no codex is off limits - even the current CSM.

LOL, like all of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spellbound wrote:'ve already made a squad of Sanguinary Guard using a combination of the SG bits and the Possessed Sprue. They look AMAZING, and I'm debating taking the plunge. How many people in your areas have already done so?

Pictures please!

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Huron vs. Vulcan is an unfair comparison. Huron is really no big deal, where as Vulcan is arguably the best Codex Marine HQ choice and a bargain for what he does.

Let's look at the units which actually do the killing:

Chaos Terminators vs. Imperial Terminators. Chaos Terminators are cheaper, can use marks and powerweapons as well as be upgraded to champions, can take combimeltas, powerfists, etc. They're far more versatile, and can be taken in smaller squads. The only thing they don't get is TH/SS.

Let's look at anti-mech squads. Chosen w/ 4 meltaguns vs... nothing. Nothing in the vanilla Marine dex has anything that can squeeze so many meltaguns in a squad except for Sternguard with combimeltas. Big deal. Overpriced and one hit wonders.

Let's look at troops choices. Vanilla Marines have a couple choices: Tactical Marines or uh...scouts...Chaos Marines have a dedicated assault unit (Berzerkers), a dedicated tarpit (Plague Marines), a dedicated shooty unit (Noise Marines), and a dedicated overpriced unit (1k sons, jk btw). Then they have diet versions of all of these via marks.

The only important thing Vanilla Marines can field, which CSM cannot, IMO anyway is Land Speeders. The rest is just fluff and stuff. As far as Nuts n Bolts units, they're far more versatile. The independent characters may suck but ICs aren't what wins you the game. You can field 2 as HQ choices and they're all expensive. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have 2 Lash Sorcerors than 1 Marneus Calgar.

Wait, why are they unfair comparisons? Just because one plays a bigger fluff role, he should have better special rules for less cost? Last I checked "cool backstory" didn't give points discounts. It's a fine comparison and what the other poster failed to mention was that Vulkan also has a 2+ armour save and rerolls a failed to-wound roll.

You're right, SM don't have a unit equal to the chosen. Unfortunately, chosen are also one-hit wonders just like sternguard. Ever seen chosen survive after blowing their meltaguns? It doesn't happen often.

SM can make any of their units into dedicated tarpits or close combat. Attach good IC here, they're assault. Put them in improved ruins for 3+ cover save near objective and they're a good tarpit at range. Regardless, in either case they're cheaper than the CSM versions so you can have MORE of them, making up for any shortcoming on a model to model basis.

ICs aren't what wins you the game? Are you serious? We're talking about the CHAOS CODEX, where if you don't have lash there IS no game.

Landspeeders are it huh? How about drop pod dreadnoughts? How about fleeting terminators? How about a 16-slot landraider? How about a landraider that can move 12" and shoot? How about 3+ invulnerable saves left right and center? Is that all fluff and stuff?

And let's set the SM codex aside. Compare your awesome dedicated assault unit [berserkers] to death company. For 1 point LESS per model, they gain fnp and when joined with a character, re-rolls to hit AND to wound! They don't score, but if berserkers are trying to camp on an objective then they're not doing any damage anyway.

Space Wolves also get small terminator squads with combi-weapons. And they may not have 4-melta chosen squads, but they get 2 meltas for 5 points in all their squads. When we pay 20, how is that remotely fair?

Pics of the converted Sanguinary Guard will be forthcoming.

Jayden63 wrote:So, this might get lost but its a good thread to ask for ideas.

Make me an army.

Here is what I have, they all came from my 3.5 Emperor's Children. Using these models make me a legal competitive counts as army. You can use any codex you like but, you must follow WYSIWYG as closely as possible. For example, the damonettes cannot represent any model that has a shooting weapon. The only exception is the defiler which can be subbed for any shooty tank or twin CC dreadnaught.

A quick list using Codex: CSM. Didn't use the lascannon, one pp/pw guy and one pp/ccw guy.

HQ
Daemon Prince Wings MoS, Lash
155

HQ
Chaos Lord, Mark of Slaanesh, Bike, Lightning Claw, icon, meltabombs
160

Elite
6xChosen – 2xMeltagun, IoS, Champ PF
183

5xChosen – 4xFlamer, IoS, PP
145

Elite
Dread 2xDCCW, Extra Armor
115

Troops
6xNoise Marines – 4xsonic blasters, personal icon, champion pw/doom siren, Rhino
225

Troops
6xCSM, IoS, Plasmagun, champ pw/pp/meltabombs
210

Troops
6xLesser Daemons
78

Troops
6xLesser Daemons
78

Troops
6xLesser Daemons
78

Heavy
Defiler
150

Heavy
Tri-las Predator
165

Heavy
Las/HB Predator
135

Fast
3xBikes, 2xmeltagun
119

Fast
3xBikes, 2xPlasmagun, IoS, Champ PW/plasma pistol
194

2190pts. Throw extra armor on the Rhinos and Preds for an easy 2250.

Spellbound wrote:

Wait, why are they unfair comparisons? Just because one plays a bigger fluff role, he should have better special rules for less cost? Last I checked "cool backstory" didn't give points discounts.

For what it's worth, Huron's backstory is way cooler than Vulkan's. One is a ruthless and brilliant manipulator of men who managed to give the Imperium the finger, gets Space Marines to defect from the Imperium in record numbers since the Heresy, and has carved out a massive pirate Empire in the friggin' Ultima Segmentum (suck on that, smurfs). The other is just some random Space Marine who likes bling and travels the galaxy in search of more bling.

I played CSM for about a year when I started, then switched to Guard. Since I love the fluff behind Chaos though, I'm working on a small Daemons list. In my mind Chaos is suffering from the era it was written, when the design philosophy was gear towards toning the game down.

Having only played Chaos in 5th, it makes me really sad that I missed out on the 3rd edition codex. Being new to the game the current codex looked complex, but now with the some experience looking at the old codex makes the current look like the video game equivalent of a Wii game.

Jayden63 wrote:Then to add insult to injury 80% of everything they took out of the Chaos codex they gave to the Imperials.

That's not entirely accurate. Take the Dark Blade vs Relic Blade for example. Sure they took the Dark Blade out of the Chaos codex, but that's just because a +2 Str power weapon that requires mastery tests and is 1 per army is seriously overpowered. Now the Relic Blade on the other hand, while sort of similar, is actually totally different if you think about it because it doesn't require mastery tests and isn't 1 per army, and instead of giving it to the Chaos Lord you give it to the Chapter Master and he doesn't afraid of anything.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Let's look at anti-mech squads. Chosen w/ 4 meltaguns vs... nothing. Nothing in the vanilla Marine dex has anything that can squeeze so many meltaguns in a squad except for Sternguard with combimeltas. Big deal. Overpriced and one hit wonders.

Yeah, Chosen are awesome. Just think about it - these guys are Heresy era veterans who have survived nightmarish conflicts spanning 10,000 years of blood and death. And that's why they can infiltrate and take 4 meltaguns. Total badasses.

Maybe my memory needs jogging this early in the morning, but what do you mean by "mastery" tests?

I know, for example, Sisters still have a +2 master-crafted power weapon, but I get the feeling that "mastery test" is probably not the same thing.

Heretics. All of you. Bow down to the power of chaos undivided!

Melissia wrote:Maybe my memory needs jogging this early in the morning, but what do you mean by "mastery" tests?

I know, for example, Sisters still have a +2 master-crafted power weapon, but I get the feeling that "mastery test" is probably not the same thing.

When using a deamon weapon whenever you killed something with it at the end of the assault phase you had to take a LD check. If you pass your ok, if you fail you take a wound.

Of course back then you could choose to not use your deamon weapon to aviod the test. My DP never used his dread axe when slashing through rank and file guys, thus he didn't have to test, that only happened when putting the smack down on things like termis and other ICs with Inv save. Totally worth it.

I remember that....the good ol' days

Shush everyone, if you start trying to point out how Chaos players took it in the ass then Nurglitch will start going on about how the current codex is varied and interesting, how the old one was more abusive than Codex: Team Edward, how 2+2=5...


EDIT: Terminus clarified his position, so I'll remove him. Sorry, Terminus.

I started building a small Thousand Sons counts as Bloodangels force when the codex came out. FNP immunity to small arms fits in a lot better with the fluff of sealed armor suits than "Hey guys somehow we can ignore armorpiercing weapons"
Also, Stormravens make cool mini Silver Towers

Mortified Penguin wrote:Shush everyone, if you start trying to point out how Chaos players took it in the ass then Terminus and Nurglitch will start going on about how the current codex is varied and interesting, how the old one was more abusive than Codex: Team Edward, how 2+2=5...

I never said the current codex is varied OR interesting. The only thing I've ever said on the topic was to object to a number of crybabies decrying the codex as weak and low-tier, when tournament result after tournament result proves them wrong. The Chaos Codex is just boring and bland, not weak.

and the current book isn't strong top to bottom, it just has a handful of really good choices. You can build a pretty good list with the second best choice in each FOC slot (Sorceror, chosen, zerkers and landraiders), but the army does suffer a bit from a dearth of good units and no usable fast attack.

Anybody wanting to deviate from the "dudes in rhinos" model is probably better off in another codex.