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well if we are talking game term BFG, yes, ships in low orbit can be targeted from ground defences, but torpedo salvos in BFG are quite easily dodged, unless used in great numbers.

Remember always, a game of 40k is often just the tip of an imaginary ice-berg, perhaps, as already stated, part of a much larger engegament, or the turning point of a longer war, or just an engagement that later proved to be very important to the outcome of the war.

Bear in mind if you were to launch a nuclear warhead every time something attacked you, you would very rapidly have an atmospheric catastrophe - generally something you would want to avoid since the fallout will kill your own just as fast as your enemies.

WMD's ARE used, in say a situation where a planet will be lost, a nice planet killer neatly wraps up proceedings and the defensive/offensive front can be shifted.

Also remember that the technology to build sufficiently durable bunkers to withstand nukes falling less than half a mile away exists NOW; I'm pretty sure an Ork Rok, capable of hauling it's ass through space and withstanding the pressures of atmospheric entry, will be pretty okay getting hit by a few.

Finally, lets look back at the fluff. It stands to reason that the nations of Terra stopped fighting amongst themselves before they expanded into the stars under the Emperor's guidance. As such, taking a modern day view on things, it would be pretty safe to assume that before any kind of global peace to exist, rapid nuclear de-armament would need to occur.

There also stands the reasoning that perhaps the STC for mass-produced nuclear weaponry is not in Imperial hands - they have bigger, and they have smaller, but the middle ground seems to be missing. Probably a strong factor towards balancing since your gameplay does involve individual units and not a simulation of Missile Command.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Usually invaders don't land in gigantic Rocks (damn orks) and even when they do they land all over the place. If you nuke your whole planet did you really win?

if you let a bunch of orks land all over your planet do you really win? look at armageddon.

Klawz wrote: And the Imperial navy is a very big threat, it's just in warhammer 40k all they care about is the land forces. BFG deals more into the whole "navy" thing.

Yeah, I'm aware of BFG, but almost nowhere in either 40k or in BGF is there any fluff about the fleet miraculously showing up at just the right time to stop an invasion at the last minute on the landing fields before it's too late.

That it's nowhere in any fluff anywhere implies to me that it doesn't happen, or at least, not often.

kill dem stunties wrote:As for needing lots of fast ships, not so much. In BL and BFG stuff it talks about engagement ranges typically in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers as being fairly medium range.

I'm not talking about fast as in cruising speed, I'm talking about fast as in response time.

I mean, how much advanced warning does the imperium get when a planet is about to be invaded? From what I can glean, the answer to this is very little, if any. That's why planets are required to basically fend for themselves with their own PDF forces until the guard is able to deploy (at the reaction speed of... well... the guard). In order for the fleet to be effective in stopping an invasion, they would need to be able to get to a planet to defend it in the time it takes between the first warning and the actual planetfall.

From my understanding, the fleet, like the army, has a very slow reaction time due to bureaucracy/warp travel time/etc. As such, the fleet only shows up after it's too late to stop the invasion at the proverbial beaches.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:I would also like to mention to the OP that the Imperial Guard have units called 'Master of the Fleet' and 'Master of Ordinance' and they are effective when it comes to battles on the ground.

Actually, this shows how INEFFECTIVE the fleet is. You have ground forces fighting valiantly, and the fleet is only able to piddle in a few blast weapon shots, or dispatch a couple of fighters to harass outflankers for a turn. Hardly a massive show of force if you ask me.

It seems that the only time that the fleet is particularly effective is when they exterminatus something, but that only happens when they are able to gather a HUGE fleet in a particular area (which doesn't happen right away), and when they absolutely do not care if the planet is in any way inhabitable in the future (so not true of things like forgeworlds).

felixthecat345 wrote:Well wouldn't there be satalites orbiting a planet that defend against invasion and bombard people who land? And if there's so many ships couldn't they asign at least a small one with lots off space to ground weaponry to most planets?

That we've almost never heard of serious planetary orbital defenses before sort of implies that they don't exist, at least not most places.

And yeah, if there WERE so many ships, I could see them being distributed around to provide defense for lots of places. That they don't do this sort of implies that there aren't that many ships.

Ailaros wrote:

Klawz wrote: And the Imperial navy is a very big threat, it's just in warhammer 40k all they care about is the land forces. BFG deals more into the whole "navy" thing.

Yeah, I'm aware of BFG, but almost nowhere in either 40k or in BGF is there any fluff about the fleet miraculously showing up at just the right time to stop an invasion at the last minute on the landing fields before it's too late.

That it's nowhere in any fluff anywhere implies to me that it doesn't happen, or at least, not often.

Actually there's quite a lot of stuff like this, but none about IN, strangely. Like on that planet the Mordians defended (no codex to hand, damn it) just before the Tetrarchal palace fell black ships arrived and the psykers banished the deamons, or in the second WfA when an SM fleet arrived and destroyed the back of Gorgutz attack. But, you're right, no IN saving the day fluff, just a different allied fleet

Ailaros wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:As for needing lots of fast ships, not so much. In BL and BFG stuff it talks about engagement ranges typically in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers as being fairly medium range.

I'm not talking about fast as in cruising speed, I'm talking about fast as in response time.

I mean, how much advanced warning does the imperium get when a planet is about to be invaded? From what I can glean, the answer to this is very little, if any. That's why planets are required to basically fend for themselves with their own PDF forces until the guard is able to deploy (at the reaction speed of... well... the guard). In order for the fleet to be effective in stopping an invasion, they would need to be able to get to a planet to defend it in the time it takes between the first warning and the actual planetfall.

From my understanding, the fleet, like the army, has a very slow reaction time due to bureaucracy/warp travel time/etc. As such, the fleet only shows up after it's too late to stop the invasion at the proverbial beaches.

Yeah, true.

Ailaros wrote:

ComputerGeek01 wrote:I would also like to mention to the OP that the Imperial Guard have units called 'Master of the Fleet' and 'Master of Ordinance' and they are effective when it comes to battles on the ground.

Actually, this shows how INEFFECTIVE the fleet is. You have ground forces fighting valiantly, and the fleet is only able to piddle in a few blast weapon shots, or dispatch a couple of fighters to harass outflankers for a turn. Hardly a massive show of force if you ask me.

It seems that the only time that the fleet is particularly effective is when they exterminatus something, but that only happens when they are able to gather a HUGE fleet in a particular area (which doesn't happen right away), and when they absolutely do not care if the planet is in any way inhabitable in the future (so not true of things like forgeworlds).

Well, as long as a fleet is there, can't they do something? There isn't a suitable blast marker for nova cannon shots, obviously, so mebbe that's why they can't represent it's full power in a game

felixthecat345 wrote:Well wouldn't there be satalites orbiting a planet that defend against invasion and bombard people who land? And if there's so many ships couldn't they asign at least a small one with lots off space to ground weaponry to most planets?

That we've almost never heard of serious planetary orbital defenses before sort of implies that they don't exist, at least not most places.

And yeah, if there WERE so many ships, I could see them being distributed around to provide defense for lots of places. That they don't do this sort of implies that there aren't that many ships.

This like asking who would you shot your Munitions officer when he is the only that is employed or the Sexy hot lady. Who would you shoot. Munitions officer of course.

Wait, orbital defences do exist in large numbers:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Battlefleet-Gothic/ORBITAL-DEFENSE-LASER-PLATFORMS-TAMAHL-PATTERN.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Battlefleet-Gothic/ORBITAL-DEFENSE-WEAPONS-PLATFORMS-GOTHIC-PATTERN.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Battlefleet-Gothic/ORBITAL-TORPEDO-LAUNCHERS-GOTHIC-PATTERN.html

Doesn't mean lots of planets have them.

You wanna know the REAL reason why the Imperial forces don't just easily stop invading forces through the quick use of massed firepower?

No one gives a crap about a story that goes like this: "The mighty Ghazghkull Thraka's forces swelled inside their hulk as it exited the warp, overcome with eagerness for the coming Wagghh. The hulk's weapons demolished the defenses of the Armageddon system, obsolete orbital satellites and small attack craft were no match for the might craft. Desperate messages were sent in the hope of acquiring aid but none would arrive before the Orks landed. So instead the Imperial forces just launched like a trillion nukes or something, and all the Orks died. The End."

drukawski wrote:You wanna know the REAL reason why the Imperial forces don't just easily stop invading forces through the quick use of massed firepower?

No one gives a crap about a story that goes like this: "The mighty Ghazghkull Thraka's forces swelled inside their hulk as it exited the warp, overcome with eagerness for the coming Wagghh. The hulk's weapons demolished the defenses of the Armageddon system, obsolete orbital satellites and small attack craft were no match for the might craft. Desperate messages were sent in the hope of acquiring aid but none would arrive before the Orks landed. So instead the Imperial forces just launched like a trillion nukes or something, and all the Orks died. The End."

A trillion nukes? Is that it? Pfft, Ghazghull laughs at you! It takes atleast one, one space marine special character to best him.

Lol
Very true espically in that manner.

If the imperium lauched nukes it would kill every thing for thausands of miles.

Wolf Priest Ranek wrote:If the imperium lauched nukes it would kill every thing for thousands of miles.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:A trillion nukes? Is that it? Pfft, Ghazghull laughs at you! It takes atleast one, one space marine special character to best him.

The Imperium did use nukes. Then that clusterfeth with the Crimson Fists happened.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Imperium did use nukes. Then that clusterfeth with the Crimson Fists happened.

Yeah. But on a serious note, who actually wrote that piece of fluff? The writer stresses the sheer nigh impossibility of that missile destroying, let alone scratching the fortress monestry, and yet it obliterates most of the fortress anyway. Couldn't have given the orks a super weapon or something instead, oh no, that would make too much more sense..


Anyway, if they did nuke everything, it'd put the space marines out of a job. Maybe Marneus Calgar ate all the nukes so the smurfs could win everything instead.

Just exactly how did the missle destroy the fortress? Did it malfunction below the shields or...

Emperors Faithful wrote:Just exactly how did the missle destroy the fortress? Did it malfunction below the shields or...

The shields were lowered/powering up as they launched the strike. The missile involved was an orbital torpedo, designed to drill into the thick hull of a starship before exploding. It was just majorly unlucky that it hit or found a weak spot when it blew.

Yeah. But on a serious note, who actually wrote that piece of fluff? The writer stresses the sheer nigh impossibility of that missile destroying, let alone scratching the fortress monestry, and yet it obliterates most of the fortress anyway. Couldn't have given the orks a super weapon or something instead, oh no, that would make too much more sense..

it's been that way since the first RT rulebook.

reds8n wrote:it's been that way since the first RT rulebook.

Unfortunately, yes, it has :/

Don't get me wrong, I play Crimson Fists myself, but the way they wrote it just didn't do it justice. Infact, the small amount of stuff on it in the current SM dex would suggest to newbies that the orks were the ones who destroyed the fortress monestary.
And there is some inconsistancy; some fluff says 99% of their stuff was destroyed, some fluff says they still have part of their fortress monestary. This deserves its own thread, that I shall make. [/endofftopic]



Back on topic, noone's mentioned yet that the defending imperials might actually just not have a nuke?

1% is still part of.

Ailaros wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:As for needing lots of fast ships, not so much. In BL and BFG stuff it talks about engagement ranges typically in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers as being fairly medium range.

I'm not talking about fast as in cruising speed, I'm talking about fast as in response time.

I mean, how much advanced warning does the imperium get when a planet is about to be invaded? From what I can glean, the answer to this is very little, if any. That's why planets are required to basically fend for themselves with their own PDF forces until the guard is able to deploy (at the reaction speed of... well... the guard). In order for the fleet to be effective in stopping an invasion, they would need to be able to get to a planet to defend it in the time it takes between the first warning and the actual planetfall.

They usually have a good bit of time to prepare for fleet in bound to a location, its only really tyranids that leave them unable to sense the disturbances in the warp caused by the fleets massive wake. Also dont try to say hyperspace blahblah, it would be an equivalent if they came to the same universe, so it would just be a safer form of warp travel.

If it were large enough of a fleet to give a sector battlegroup a good fight theyd see it coming months away.

Also, Necrons do not use warp travel. Their ships rapidly accelerate and de-accelerate when they arrive in their target system.