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One thing I found out most people fear ATM in 8th ed magic phase is tomb king incantations combined with caskets and chariots. A high liche preist on a casket on a hill owns everything that sees it. Also there are a few of the uber spells (the lore of beasts one in particular, it makes a wizard a stateline 8 dragon) that are really terrifying to come up against.

Why is this any better now in 8th than it was in 7th?

It does occur to me that with the new true line of site rules that it doesn't really need to be on a hill any more, which makes it 100% more useful.

Finally, it doesn't need (and shouldn't have) a High Liche Priest attached to it. That's too many points, and just having a regular priest does just as good a job.

Dont forget every army will be errata for their magic spells and what you need to cast them. Plus the ring of hotek is a must in every DE army, as if it wasnt before. Happy to see daemons getting it handed it to them though. The divnation orb for WE is also going to be comeing in very handy plus some of those spites. Now is it 25% lords and heros or 25%lords and 25%heros?

25% Lords plus 25% heroes.

I think Daemons will still be very good. Flamers are in fact amazing. And each Tz can take all 6 spells in any of the main lorebooks with a relatively cheap gift.

Only 2 things hit Daemons IMO.

1) Nerfing of fear.
2) removal of greater daemons (for the most part) in 2000 point games.

I can still take a Bloodthirster with Armor of Khorne and Immortal Fury at 2k.

The one thing it does, with lords, is make other armies able to get 2 lords that essentially amount to one greater daemon. Before, being able to invest so many points into a lord was comparatively a nice advantage (the only thing that matched up were fighty lords on dragons - and those were OP too).

Fear is a solid hit, but really wasn't as big a deal to them as it was to Undead. My bloodthirsters weren't really hoping to win combat by 1 and autobreak you. They were hoping to slaughter you. Daemons generate a LOT more active combat res, and the WS debuff is still very helpful.

I think the general buff to ranks and leadership are what hurt daemons the most, as an elite (read: expensive), active res (read: likes to break units on the charge) army, combined with a general nerf to magic (making one of the roughest builds, heavy Tz, a lot worse).

The fact that units wil have more attacks back is a pretty huge penalty to daemons. They are mostly just T3 and 5+ward across the board.

In the last edition they relied on killing all of hte potential attacks before they could attack back, couple that with stubborn to the oppsoing units in most cases, and they areally are worse than high elves for how long they are going to stick around in battles of attrition unless it's a nurgle unit. Those guys will last forever, but don't do anything.

Then theres the fact that Tzeentch daemon armies will be limited by the max powerdice rule, especially as horrors count as spellcasters and use up the powerdice as well. They can't level people's armies in the magic phase like they used to...

I think you are right, they'll be more inconsistent in the magic phase than before (if you roll 1,1 for winds, not that much happening regardless). But I don't think they will be that limited. You can still get 3 heralds knowing 6 spells each, a greater daemon and 4 or 5 blocks of casting horrors if you wanted. Each one will have a decent boost to casting and can try casting with one die on their spells. If one fails, you have another 6 or 7 casters to try on the next.

Overall, a nerf, but still powerful I bet.

Isn't the bound power level and how hard the spell hits determined by the number of horrors in the block? Therefore wouldn't the cast be more difficult depending on the number of horrors in said block? Not scary at all.

Also: AFAIK youcan't have the same spell 2 times, unless it's the 0 level spell. Unless you're talking about 1 herald from each god... Then yeah. But you're still only generating on average of 7-8 PD per turn. So you wouldn't be able to take advantage of having so many spells.

Mos people want to spam 1d spells since they'll be getting +2 or +4 to the casts, but you'll be failing 33% of all due to the 3+ minimum to cast rule.

It's pretty clear that 2pd per cast is standard. It's also clear that 2 l2 or 1 lvl4 mage is optimumal for an army. The only way to bring up the number of mages is to add 1 l2 mage per 4 pd created through "other means"

I thought i was scared of slanns before...

The get a free dice on every spell.... thats essentially 6 free power dice that dont count towards the 12....

/shudder

Killjoy00 wrote:I think you are right, they'll be more inconsistent in the magic phase than before (if you roll 1,1 for winds, not that much happening regardless). But I don't think they will be that limited. You can still get 3 heralds knowing 6 spells each, a greater daemon and 4 or 5 blocks of casting horrors if you wanted. Each one will have a decent boost to casting and can try casting with one die on their spells. If one fails, you have another 6 or 7 casters to try on the next.

Overall, a nerf, but still powerful I bet.

That tzeentch set up used to generate 11 dice. Now it generates either 2d6 or 2d6+3 if you buy 3x power vortex, but it has 8 channel attempts which will give you 1-2 more power dice. Enemy dispels will now be the highest of 2d6 rather than 2.

I think thats just right for balancing. Around 0-3 less dice to cast with, and 2-3 more dice to dispel with. The best thing about these magic changes are that spamming multiple casters isn't really that smart of a proposition, since you are basically cutting your choice of available spells down to one. And with spells harder to dispel, thanks to the dispel scroll becoming a one-of, a single level 2 could take two BIG attempts on a spell, generate around the same number of dispel dice and carry as many scrolls as a three caster army and still add +2 to dispel attempts.

Keeping all that in mind, I think its probably a better bet for a demon army to shoot for maybe one herald, grabbing a bunch of dice from the pool and shooting for a big bolt of change or tzeentch's firestorm, or against enemy mages, there are going to be a lot more good spells to glean magic with. Taking any horror units at all relegates the demon magic phase to flickering fire spam.

Lets just knock out a comparison really quick...

3x tzeentch heralds with 3x power vortex
5x10 horrors

total points 1035 total average power dice 10
after 8 flickering fire attempts (2 of them on 2d6) You'll get 6 passes, or 24 strength 5 hits, or 30 strength 4 hits at units that are 18" away.

1x tzeentch herald with master of sorcery

total points 140 total average power dice 7
throw 6 dice at the max level fireball for an average of 10-11 strength 6 hits at 48" range, then throw one die at flickering fire, for a 67% chance at 4 strength 5 or 5 strength 4 hits.

Ok, one of these is obviously better than the other... but one costs one thousand points, and the other costs a tenth of that. It is unlikely that most players will even have 6 dispel dice to throw against that big fireball, if it doesn't IF. And you have 900 points to spend.

That's what I like most- you can get away with a single caster now, and actually put the points towards, I don't know... UNITS!

I am scared of Slanns now, too, Shivan......

Ragnar4 wrote:Isn't the bound power level and how hard the spell hits determined by the number of horrors in the block? Therefore wouldn't the cast be more difficult depending on the number of horrors in said block? Not scary at all.

Also: AFAIK youcan't have the same spell 2 times, unless it's the 0 level spell. Unless you're talking about 1 herald from each god... Then yeah. But you're still only generating on average of 7-8 PD per turn. So you wouldn't be able to take advantage of having so many spells.

Mos people want to spam 1d spells since they'll be getting +2 or +4 to the casts, but you'll be failing 33% of all due to the 3+ minimum to cast rule.

It's pretty clear that 2pd per cast is standard. It's also clear that 2 l2 or 1 lvl4 mage is optimumal for an army. The only way to bring up the number of mages is to add 1 l2 mage per 4 pd created through "other means"

No, that's not how Horrors work. They are wizards, not bound spells. And they are forced to have spells, so per the BRB, are allowed to have duplicates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shep wrote:

Lets just knock out a comparison really quick...

3x tzeentch heralds with 3x power vortex
5x10 horrors

total points 1035 total average power dice 10
after 8 flickering fire attempts (2 of them on 2d6) You'll get 6 passes, or 24 strength 5 hits, or 30 strength 4 hits at units that are 18" away.

1x tzeentch herald with master of sorcery

total points 140 total average power dice 7
throw 6 dice at the max level fireball for an average of 10-11 strength 6 hits at 48" range, then throw one die at flickering fire, for a 67% chance at 4 strength 5 or 5 strength 4 hits.

Ok, one of these is obviously better than the other... but one costs one thousand points, and the other costs a tenth of that. It is unlikely that most players will even have 6 dispel dice to throw against that big fireball, if it doesn't IF. And you have 900 points to spend.

Yea, but the first turn they use their dispel. Or god forbid they have any +dispel item (like orcs and goblins). And if you do IF, your herald can get messed up. Boosting power dice outside of the winds of magic is now a lot more powerful because it disrupts the balance between two armies. So power vortex is nice... in both your examples your opponent will have 3.5 dispel dice and almost certainly 1 dispel at the start. But in the first one they were only able to stop about half what you threw out and in the second they were able to stop all of it one turn, and still have a shot at stopping it with IF dispels. Also notice you gave no power dice for channeling - the 1k point scenario should channel on average over one more die a turn, again breaking parity.

Obviously, your first wizard is worth a lot more than your 10th under the new rules. But a heavy magic list is still going to have a lot of flexibility.

Ragnar4 wrote:The fact that units wil have more attacks back is a pretty huge penalty to daemons. They are mostly just T3 and 5+ward across the board.

In the last edition they relied on killing all of hte potential attacks before they could attack back, couple that with stubborn to the oppsoing units in most cases, and they areally are worse than high elves for how long they are going to stick around in battles of attrition unless it's a nurgle unit. Those guys will last forever, but don't do anything.

IM sorry can anyone say horded high elf spear men getting 5 ranks to attack with?

I read the book a bit today at my FLGS. I'm worried. It says dwarfs have no wizards. In 7th runesmiths and runelords still counted as wizards for dispel dice. I hope this is still the case. Dwarfs get +2 to dispel rather than plus 2 dispel dice--I'd rather have the extra dice! The rune (i forget the name) that allows a dwarf to take magic dice from his enemy still works I hope.

I am scared of Slanns now, too, Shivan......

I think a lot of that will come down to how MR works, in detail. We know it adds the MR number to the model's existing ward save for an improved save against spells. However, what we don't know is if it now really only works against spells that have a strength value and roll to wound or otherwise therefore allow saves. For example, a Slann might have a 2+ ward save against spells due to 4+ ward and MR2. If he's hit by Pit of Shades or Purple Sun in 8th and is forced to take an initiative test or die, does he get the ward save or not? I think not but haven't verified this from the rulebook yet. My point? Kairos Fateweaver and the Slann, both have a terrible magical counters to them that they might not be able to prevent. Models with master of sorcery or forbidden lore will be able to pick the spell and roll 6 dice on it for maximum irresistible force chance, for much less points. Both of these spells mention specifically that no saves are allowed, but I'd just like to re-check the MR section just to be 100% sure.

By the way, the Purple Sun is the template that remains in play and everyone under it roll initiative test or die. If the Slann is in a Temple Guard unit (I2) tons of models from unit will go poof (again no partials). Even level 1 wizards will have access to these spells. You don't need to cost 500 points to be absolutely deadly in the magic phase.

Yeah I really dont get the levels ones being able to throw huge bricks of dice at spells, roll double 6's, and autocast it. Especially because some level one wizards are so cheap.

HOWEVER

They still have to roll to get the uber spell. Will it happen sometimes? yes it will.

I just think taking 5 level one kamikaze wizards and having them get these insanely powerfull spells off is cheesy, and just plain unfluffy. They are baby wizards, I doubt they have the power or skill to do it.

Go Go lvl 2 high elf choosing spells.

Was watching a game last night and I saw the purple sun kill half of an ogre army (init 2) in one shot on turn 1. He even basically ignored the miscast as well (lucky roll).

Even with 6 dice getting a 25+ isn't guaranteed or even average.

Therion, also remember that now you have to pick your lore ahead of time. So you can't go for Pit of Shades once you see you are playing LM even if you have an ability that gives you all the spells from a particular lore.

Killjoy00 wrote:Therion, also remember that now you have to pick your lore ahead of time. So you can't go for Pit of Shades once you see you are playing LM even if you have an ability that gives you all the spells from a particular lore.

This is a big one, you have to have in your army list what lore you are taking.

Also im not sure of the exact odds, but throwing 6 dice you have a damn good chance of hitting and getting the spell off regardless

From what I understand, you'd have about a 1 in 4 chance of getting double sixes.

(Just check - my dice probability program says 26.32%)

Killjoy00 wrote:From what I understand, you'd have about a 1 in 4 chance of getting double sixes.

(Just check - my dice probability program says 26.32%)

omg ive been looking for a program like that, where did oyu get it?

Therion, also remember that now you have to pick your lore ahead of time.

This is a good change, but doesn't change the fact that atleast 3 armies have access to level 1's or level 2's that can just choose their spells or just have an entire lore for themselves. Atleast the lore of death is good enough overall to be picked by anyone with Master of Sorcery / Forbidden Lore in the army list building phase.

They still have to roll to get the uber spell.

This is true for those wizards who don't choose their spells. I'm pretty sure they will choose lores that have devastating signature spells, for example fire. The fireball is the best nuke of all the new spells and it's a flexible spell too because it can be cast on three different power levels depending on how many power dice you happen to randomise for yourself.

It's a survival horror game for Wizards in your OWN magic phase.

Yesterday a Dark Elf Sorceress blew herself up while fighting my Zombie Horde and caused a Dimensional Cascade killing 8 Zombies, the Sorceress, 8 Dark Elf Spears and 3 Cold One Knights.

Slann can take the ability which negates any sixes rolled by a wizard

no suicidal lvl 1 purple sun wizard lol.

Shadow and death are both good all round lores for even a lvl 2. A lvl2 with an extra spell has a more than fair chance to get doubles letting him choose the great and powerful spell.

Though very few have the powerful 1-2 punch of wither (-1T) followed by plague (T-check or wound).


This beggs the question. For casters that can choose from multiple lores such as greyseers who can chose part from each lore do they just have to nominate the lores at army choosing or how many spells from each lore?

Seon wrote:Slann can take the ability which negates any sixes rolled by a wizard

no suicidal lvl 1 purple sun wizard lol.

OH yeah haha thats funny. It will be nearly impossible to get the super spells off without the 6's helping the roll.

Meh, just throw at the lower level. You get to place the template anywhere.

ShivanAngel wrote:

Seon wrote:Slann can take the ability which negates any sixes rolled by a wizard

no suicidal lvl 1 purple sun wizard lol.

OH yeah haha thats funny. It will be nearly impossible to get the super spells off without the 6's helping the roll.

Unless your a lvl 4 Lord of Change with 2 heads and get auto +6 to your casting roll.... Though it makes a double 6's a lot more costly....