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Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





Do you really think that most people so completely define themselves as one way or the other?


I don't think most people define themselves one way or another, but I do think that there are some fundamental views that people hold, which will cause them to line up on one side or the other.

I think this whole "entitlement" vs. "compassion" discussion is actually core to it.

Once somebody gravitates toward a side, the scumshits who run the mainstream media will rush and find a way to metastisize that slight alignment into a cancerous partisan hatred. Once people are "activated" and angry, they tend to watch more TV.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/08/11 07:34:31




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Satyxis Raider




In your head, screwing with your thoughts...

Or maybe it's because the Liberal way is the right way.

   
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Buzzard's Knob

Hellfury wrote:
warpcrafter wrote:Do I sense a little repressed nerd rage? C'mon, admit it, those are the same guys now who sit in their cubicles just hoping for their coworkers to screw up so they can run to their boss and snitch on them. THAT's the sort of 'self-esteem' that Mister Rogers gave to the world.


Wow. I thought that I was cynical.

I think you should get a job working for Fox News. Blanket statements such as that fit right in there. You wont have to bum money off of me anymore if you get a job there.

Huh? Who's making an unsubstantiated statement now? I have two jobs, and have NEVER taken unemployment or any other sort of assistance. By the way, the only people who call anyone cynical are in denial about their own wearing of rose-colored glasses.

warpcrafter wrote:I don't know where you grew up, but I fondly remembering that one ironclad rule of the playground jungle was that anybody who was found to be a fan of Mister Rogers was just begging for an atomic wedgie and a stiff kicking. Now THAT was a satisfying, empowering and self-esteem building exercise.

The funniest part about stories like these is how 'in the closet' you know the bullies are. Because if they're kicking the guy who watches the wrong show (or happens to be wearing green, and everyone knows green is the lame color, or at least it is that Thursday) then surely no one will ever suspect that as soon as they get home, the first thing they do is turn on PBS and sing along with what a beautiful day it is.


Heheheh... When I was 3 years old, when other kids my age were learning nursery rhymes, I was learning the words to Black Sabbath songs. Go back to your fantasy land and stop wasting other peoples' time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/11 08:19:50


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Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Phryxis wrote:So, basically, we shouldn't worry about what fat, stupid morons like Rosie O'Donnell say, because they're beneath notice.


No, we should certainly care, and whenever anyone anywhere says that O'Donnell knows what she's talking about we should tell them she absolutely does not.

But, if we're going to pass judgement on these sorts of things, then I judge that she should be shot at dawn, but preferrably with a suitably powerful round as is required to humanely kill a creature of her ponderous bulk.


I think the world is, quite rightly, a little squeamish about the use of tactical nuclear weapons, and I'm not sure anything less would suffice.

It's my perception that this is exactly what MSNBC has done with the Democrats.


They're moving that way, for sure. And it's a bad, bad thing. It probably won't work, and certainly won't work as well has FOX News has, because MSNBC is pretty crappy anyway, and media dedicated to repeating liberal message rarely gets the viewing numbers that media dedicated to repeating the conservative message does.

If it's not as obvious, I'd argue that that is because there's such a pervasive liberal bias in the mainstream media, that Fox sticks out like a sore thumb, while MSNBC blends in a bit more.


There really isn't a liberal bias in the media. Everybody, everywhere watches the news and notes that it wasn't reported exactly like their perception of events, and believes it must be biased against them. But media just doesn't work that way.

The media is mercenary. The media is feeding a 24 hour demand for content. This means sensationalism and superficial reporting. There hasn't time for political bias. This changed, of course, when Rupert Murdoch realised movement conservatism could be targetted as a whole demographic, and that little idea got him the highest rating cable news channel.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Charging Dragon Prince




Chicago, IL, U.S.A.

I have a secret lesbien crush on Rachel Maddow, and I think that Countdown with Kieth guy is pretty much like a comedian in newsman's clothing and he knows it and plays up to it... why do the liberals get all the sarcastic witty hosts smug at their own wittiness while the conservatives get all the ditzy blonds who laugh at their own not-funny jokes... never mind I just answered my own question.

If I want what could come close to unbiased political or international news I will stick with Anderson Cooper on CNN, or BBC world news. Both FOX and MSNBC are clearly on either side of the fence to an extreme and I'm sure their all of their non-brain-dead viewers know it too.

As far as Rosie goes... I don't care if she is fat or ugly, but her opinion on current events is hardly relevant. Its a shame she got on a talkshow with a bunch of other opinionated bitches (BARBARA WALTERS?! look how far you have fallen...) and continued her loudmouthed bull gak on camera for so long. 4 dumb beyotches all gathered around a table squawking every morning, and the bored housewives of America eat it up and think its informative. Yeah throw in Oprah too while we're at it. Oprah's opinion MATTERS whether she is informed or not, every 40-50 year old woman with bad taste in books hangs on her every word.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When it comes to news the only thing worse than an uninformed public is an uninformed public who gets fed just enough news-lite to think it is informed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/08/11 09:32:22


Retroactively applied infallability is its own reward. I wish I knew this years ago.

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Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

Phryxis wrote:As a result, a self professed liberal like Hellfury doesn't have context on this, like most Fox viewers do. They realize it's one of their old saws, with a Mr. Rogers spin. They're focused on the old saw being played, the Mr. Rogers backup music is just for color. But to somebody who's never heard the saw played before, the Mr. Rogers part is most familliar, and seems like it's the focus.

But, I feel compelled to repeat: American liberals have NO idea what it's like to be an American conservative, and how constantly you're forced to hear ideology that you find offensive.

Imagine if every movie you saw, and about 6 out of 7 TV news channels you might watch, were all run by Fox news.

That's what it's like.


Not quite, but I see your point even if I disagree. I listen to and read a lot of conservative media because frankly it lets me know what people who are often diametrically opposed to me beliefs (if they happen to be very extreme leaning in their views) are thinking. I may be a social liberal, but I am also a fiscal moderate and don't blindly tow the liberal line to its extremes. But I also glean my own truths from what is going on in conservative media after I do some fact checking. Sadly, its up to the public to do their own fact checking since Journalism is all but dead in any major media source.

I will say though that you are exaggerating the media bias at large. I think looking at Rupert Murdoch's News Corp empire contradicts that stance.

Anyways back on topic. The reason why I posted this thread was to vent my anger at targeting a person who I view as sacrosanct. If there is proof then by all means show us but a finance professor pontificating that "They felt so entitled," he recalls, "and it just hit me. We can blame Mr. Rogers." "he's representative of a culture of excessive doting." is not something that could or should be regarded as news. But yet the very man who has given so much to society is blamed for the failings of others without anything more than biased observation.
http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB118358476840657463.html

Yet a day later he retracts his statements as a "metaphor" when he clearly made it his mission to cast blame in that direction (see quote above)
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/07/07/rogers-retraction/
(accompanying video
http://video.thinkprogress.org/2007/07/rogersII.320.240.flv

I don't think it is being overly paranoid to remark about how curious this is to be brought up in the Wall Street Journal, a newspaper that Rupert Murdoch himself owns.

It is interesting to note that shitstorm it caused for Don Chance, and how Fox changed its tone from accusatory "EVIL!" to compassionate "AWW!" in the span of 24 hours regarding this very subject. Credit to Fox for not being overly obtuse enough to continue on with the accusatory tone. But sadly not much credit since I am sure if Fox felt that way to begin with they would not have had such rancor for the man in their reporting.

Not sure if his report was taken out of context since I cannot find it anywhere on the net, but Fox was very willing to vilify the much-loved man at the drop of a hat. The only logical reason I can think of Fox's correction was because of Professor Chance's request.

This is why Fox 'News' draws my ire. They could be so close to being a valid news network while still being the conservative news network. They just need to lay off the accusatory tone.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-may-12-2010/back-in-black---glenn-beck-s-nazi-tourette-s?xrs=synd_facebook

Granted, this is a lampooning of Fox (as usual) but Lewis Black does make a valid point.

Less hypocrisy and intentional misdirection, but more actual content, please. I find Fox does a disservice to the conservative ideal and makes them look like buffoons where the public should be less inclined to be so separated by polar extremes that Fox/MSNBC promotes and make for a healthier public opinion where discourse is promoted, not crucifixion. The media and politicians go hand in hand in a vicious cycle that feeds itself. Its hard to be a political moderate with such dreck about.

   
Made in us
Charging Dragon Prince




Chicago, IL, U.S.A.

You are all unique.


The less child-friendly way of saying it is that you will all die alone, with only your eyes to see through as it happens. In your own head, the only head your mind has ever occupied. So yes you are all unique, which is why people try to be nice when they have the clarity of thought to do so. Reminding kids that they are unique but not alone because everyone else is too is hardly a liberal bias, it's just telling the truth.

Kids are lazy because their parents are lazy. Kids are misinformed because their parents withold the ugly truths about life from them or brainwash them with ambiguities like racism or religion or politics or homos or whatever particular hangup makes the parent angry and therefore want their kid to think the same way in order to justify their own poor logic inadequacy. Dumb parents make dumb kids.

Sesame street taught me how to read. Rogers taught me that I am important. Legos taught me geometry. Paper aeroplanes taught me aerodynamics and eventually, physics, and so on...

What do the kids nowadays have? Pokemon for encouragement, video games for hand-eye co-ordination, computer classes that teach them how to USE a computer but not actually how it WORKS, and absent parents, handout grades for school funding as implemented by "The Decider" Mr. Bush and his "No Child Left" idea... oh wait I forgot the "behind" part. Maybe I should just say ass.

I could rant forever about the dumbditude (yes it is a word... well it is now anyways) of my immediately younger high schoolers/college kid age people who I am supposed to work with, pretend to treat like adults, and just put up with how shallow and unedumacationed they are.

That isn't Rogers' fault. That isn't Fox News or MSNBCs fault. That is what happens in a culture of misinformed brainwashed placated children raising more misinformed brainwashed placated children.

If we made them study vocabulary instead of forcing them into sunday school , or made them learn the periodic table instead of learning the order of the books of the bible, if we had them WRITING instead of WATCHING, if we had them feeling good about themselves for something they DID instead of feeling good about themselves because they have cool new SHOES, If we taught them about what is REALLY GOING ON in the world instead of watching news footage about BEYONCE at the grammys... I think you all know what I'm getting at... then MAYBE KIDS WOULDN'T BE SO fething STUPID.

Retroactively applied infallability is its own reward. I wish I knew this years ago.

I am Red/White
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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Religious education is not in anyway at odds with general education. Or rather, it does not have to be. But then I don't think "intelligent design" and other counterfactual subjects qualify as religious.

   
Made in us
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos






Anyone else find it amusingly ironic that we are in front of computers arguing over how lazy, unproductive and dependent on technology all these "stupid" kids are?

Maybe get off the Dakka you must. Volunteer at a reading program or as a Big Brother we should (As Yoda would say)

I'm just sayin...

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Nigel Stillman





Austin, TX

Dude, Mr. Rogers is the man. Seriously, it must be a very slow news day for Fox if they have to stoop to insulting the super awesome Mr. Rogers. No this isn't sarcasm.

I mean I'm 18 but they had reruns of his show when I was a wee lad. I still remember getting upset when I heard that he passed away. He influenced me way more positively as a kid then, say, Jurassic Park or something of that sort.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Vladsimpaler wrote:Dude, Mr. Rogers is the man. Seriously, it must be a very slow news day for Fox if they have to stoop to insulting the super awesome Mr. Rogers. No this isn't sarcasm.

I mean I'm 18 but they had reruns of his show when I was a wee lad. I still remember getting upset when I heard that he passed away. He influenced me way more positively as a kid then, say, Jurassic Park or something of that sort.


They were still making new ones when you were a wee lad. The show ran close to forever.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

CT GAMER wrote:Anyone else find it amusingly ironic that we are in front of computers arguing over how lazy, unproductive and dependent on technology all these "stupid" kids are?

Maybe get off the Dakka you must. Volunteer at a reading program or as a Big Brother we should (As Yoda would say)

I'm just sayin...


/thread

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Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





There really isn't a liberal bias in the media.


Well, I'm sure we're not going to reach an agreement on this, but let me make sure that I correctly present my view. There is a Democrat bias in the American media.

That's to say that the American media, by and large, side with Democrats.

I say it that way to clarify that I mean the American media, not the global media, and I say "Democrats," because, while the Democrats are left of American center, they're actually pretty centrist/conservative by the standards of many European countries.

There hasn't time for political bias.


I disagree strongly... Political bias IS the story. I agree, first and foremost, they're trying to make money. But, when people go to make money, they generally try to find a way to do it that's congruent with their values. The people that run the mainstream media in America are "liberals" by and large. So they feel that the way to get people consuming their product is to create an enemy, hype that enemy up, and get people frothy to hear more reasons that enemy is bad.

It's like any form of TV. You create a villain, then you get people tuning in to see what the villain has done today.

That villain is conservatives, and now, as you say, Fox news.

Why do you think Keith Olbermann has a "Worst Person in the World" segment on his show?

So, I agree, it's all about money. But they've found a way to make their political agenda core to their profits.

Unfortunately for them, as you point out, it's not all that effective for the left, because they already control almost all the media. Nothing in particular pushes people to watch them over one of the dozens of other sources of liberal propaganda. But Fox is virtually alone as the sole conservative propaganda machine, so it profits massively.

If you look at our elections, they're very close almost every year. The country is very evenly split... And, if I'm not mistaken, Fox gets roughly the same viewership as all the other news orgs combined. Fox gets the conservatives, the others get the liberals.

Countdown with Kieth guy is pretty much like a comedian in newsman's clothing


Actually he's a bad comedian in a sportscaster's clothing and then in a newsman's clothing. Plus he's a lunatic.

I may be a social liberal, but I am also a fiscal moderate and don't blindly tow the liberal line


Too bad we'll never get Rudy Giuliani, eh? I'd actually be excited if he ran, and managed to get through the process without anything horrible coming up.

I think looking at Rupert Murdoch's News Corp empire contradicts that stance.


Oh, there's no question, he's got a bias, and there's no question that AM radio is virtually 100% conservative. But I consider Murdoch's success to be PROOF of the bias. He's so successful because, as I said above, half the country is conservative, and NOBODY in the mainstream media is talking to them. Murdoch comes along, the ONLY voice conservatives have, and of course he succeeds.

When you've got an untapped market of 150 million people, you're going to do well.

I don't think it is being overly paranoid to remark about how curious this is to be brought up in the Wall Street Journal, a newspaper that Rupert Murdoch himself owns.


I think you're falling for a trap here that you don't want to fall for. Understand what I was saying earlier, this whole "self-esteem is hogwash" movement is big on the right. It's something that sells GREAT to conservatives, and even to many liberals. It sounds to me like Mr. Rogers was tossed into this PRECISELY to get the response it's gotten. We're talking about it. We're looking at the published study.

Would we be doing that if it was just another study published by a random conservative?

Nope.

This guy put Mr. Rogers in there in order to get some reaction, to create some buzz, to make a bold statement that demanded that people respond. Since you clearly don't like what this guy's saying, I don't think you want to rise to his bait.

They could be so close to being a valid news network while still being the conservative news network.


It's actually true, Fox has periods of fair, lucid coverage of the issues, and then the revert into the sensationalist garbage to draw in viewers. They really have a sideshow act at times, which people get really riled up over.

I don't actually watch Glenn Beck's TV show, but I do listen to him on the radio. In my experience, people seem a lot more calm and reasonable on the radio. Bill O'Reilly was the same way. He seemed VERY resonable to me on his radio show, and I couldn't figure out why people were so angry with him, but then I saw his TV show, and it was a whole different act. He would talk over people, get angry, yell, make irrational statements, etc. etc.

So, I dunno, I wonder if these guys aren't being directed to play things up on Fox, but when they're more on their own dime, doing a radio show, they calm it down and speak more of their actual mind.

It might just be the medium as well, prehaps radio is just more relaxed.




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Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker





Guitardian wrote:You are all unique.


The less child-friendly way of saying it is that you will all die alone, with only your eyes to see through as it happens. In your own head, the only head your mind has ever occupied. So yes you are all unique, which is why people try to be nice when they have the clarity of thought to do so. Reminding kids that they are unique but not alone because everyone else is too is hardly a liberal bias, it's just telling the truth.

Kids are lazy because their parents are lazy. Kids are misinformed because their parents withold the ugly truths about life from them or brainwash them with ambiguities like racism or religion or politics or homos or whatever particular hangup makes the parent angry and therefore want their kid to think the same way in order to justify their own poor logic inadequacy. Dumb parents make dumb kids.

Sesame street taught me how to read. Rogers taught me that I am important. Legos taught me geometry. Paper aeroplanes taught me aerodynamics and eventually, physics, and so on...

What do the kids nowadays have? Pokemon for encouragement, video games for hand-eye co-ordination, computer classes that teach them how to USE a computer but not actually how it WORKS, and absent parents, handout grades for school funding as implemented by "The Decider" Mr. Bush and his "No Child Left" idea... oh wait I forgot the "behind" part. Maybe I should just say ass.

I could rant forever about the dumbditude (yes it is a word... well it is now anyways) of my immediately younger high schoolers/college kid age people who I am supposed to work with, pretend to treat like adults, and just put up with how shallow and unedumacationed they are.

That isn't Rogers' fault. That isn't Fox News or MSNBCs fault. That is what happens in a culture of misinformed brainwashed placated children raising more misinformed brainwashed placated children.

If we made them study vocabulary instead of forcing them into sunday school , or made them learn the periodic table instead of learning the order of the books of the bible, if we had them WRITING instead of WATCHING, if we had them feeling good about themselves for something they DID instead of feeling good about themselves because they have cool new SHOES, If we taught them about what is REALLY GOING ON in the world instead of watching news footage about BEYONCE at the grammys... I think you all know what I'm getting at... then MAYBE KIDS WOULDN'T BE SO fething STUPID.


How successful are your kids? How well can they read, write, etc?

Please continue to teach us, oh great sensei, because clearly you are the only one tuned into the great energy of this meaningless existence. Clearly things like Sunday School and Pop music degrade our social morality.

You are just a parrot, spouting conflicting views on how to raise children. Please calm down, and refrain from telling us just how hard it was for you coming up, again....

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Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

Phryxis wrote:I don't actually watch Glenn Beck's TV show, but I do listen to him on the radio. In my experience, people seem a lot more calm and reasonable on the radio. Bill O'Reilly was the same way. He seemed VERY resonable to me on his radio show, and I couldn't figure out why people were so angry with him, but then I saw his TV show, and it was a whole different act. He would talk over people, get angry, yell, make irrational statements, etc. etc.

So, I dunno, I wonder if these guys aren't being directed to play things up on Fox, but when they're more on their own dime, doing a radio show, they calm it down and speak more of their actual mind.


I have to agree, especially when you look at the precedent they set prior to doing Fox. Beck for instance, prior to the Obama administration, had a tv news gig (the name of the channel escapes me) but he was rather cogent on the show. He did display a conservative bias, but more often than not this social liberal agreed with him. Suddenly, merely days before Obama was sworn in, he got a job at Fox. I thought "Great! A bit of intelligent discussion on a talk show to counteract the typical crap on Fox." As we have all seen, I was very very wrong.

The guy makes mad bank now from Fox, so either his inner feelings are unleashed and he is paid handsomely for it, or the guy is towing the Murdochian line all the way to the bank.
Either way, I care not. I just cant take the guy seriously in any format after that. Hannity, O'Reilly, etc. all do the same thing and thus are rendered completely invalid by their TV personae. Dont even get me started on Limbaugh over the last 15 + years...
Its not just Fox personalities either who are guilty of selling out. MSNBC is just as bad even if I agree with some of what they say. They go from making a valid point and just cant leave well enough alone with that and have to take into the next level by wagging accusatory fingers of their own in a supreme editorial fashion that would make Murdoch proud.

But I am preaching to the choir since no matter what political alignment you may have, its agreed that extremest views should be considered with liberal amounts of salt. Few people with a modicum of intelligence are incapable of seeing past the provocative sensationalism.

   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





I just cant take the guy seriously in any format after that.


I don't exactly take him seriously, but I take his impact very seriously.

In general, he's very emotional and hyperbolic. Everything is a last stand, everything is a tearful appeal to American pride. It's a bit too much. He has some comic bits on his radio show that I enjoy, but he's far too often getting carried away.

On the other hand, his impact is VERY important. It's actually a bit amazing how many stories he exposes that the rest of the media have ignored, and which he can drive home and make stick. For example, he went after Van Jones, and put Obama in a position where he simply couldn't defend his nomination.

Some might say that his attacks on Jones were false, but if that's truly the case, he wouldn't have been cut loose.

It's a bit depressing that a guy like Beck, who really isn't a journalist, who really isn't a scholar, is doing the work that those communities won't do for partisan reasons.



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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Phryxis wrote:
Some might say that his attacks on Jones were false, but if that's truly the case, he wouldn't have been cut loose.


I don't think that's true of politics in general, and its probably generally false regarding the Democrats in particular; especially an Obama Administration that wants to at least appear bipartisan. Public perception has always been more important than truth insofar as politics are concerned.

That said, Jones was a deeply entrenched member of the liberal side of the green movement, so I don't at all doubt that the majority of the allegations against him were true. Inevitably he was appointed for political reasons, and forced to resign for political reasons.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Charging Dragon Prince




Chicago, IL, U.S.A.

CT GAMER wrote:Anyone else find it amusingly ironic that we are in front of computers arguing over how lazy, unproductive and dependent on technology all these "stupid" kids are?

Maybe get off the Dakka you must. Volunteer at a reading program or as a Big Brother we should (As Yoda would say)

I'm just sayin...


-1

Sorry man, but lots of us do this in the middle of the night when the day's work is over. Time zones and work schedules are a bitch. It's either this or watching late night infomercials for me, so your timing comment is kind of unfair.

Retroactively applied infallability is its own reward. I wish I knew this years ago.

I am Red/White
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
<small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>

I'm both chaotic and orderly. I value my own principles, and am willing to go to extreme lengths to enforce them, often trampling on the very same principles in the process. At best, I'm heroic and principled; at worst, I'm hypocritical and disorderly.
 
   
Made in us
Charging Dragon Prince




Chicago, IL, U.S.A.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
Guitardian wrote:You are all unique.


The less child-friendly way of saying it is that you will all die alone, with only your eyes to see through as it happens. In your own head, the only head your mind has ever occupied. So yes you are all unique, which is why people try to be nice when they have the clarity of thought to do so. Reminding kids that they are unique but not alone because everyone else is too is hardly a liberal bias, it's just telling the truth.

Kids are lazy because their parents are lazy. Kids are misinformed because their parents withold the ugly truths about life from them or brainwash them with ambiguities like racism or religion or politics or homos or whatever particular hangup makes the parent angry and therefore want their kid to think the same way in order to justify their own poor logic inadequacy. Dumb parents make dumb kids.

Sesame street taught me how to read. Rogers taught me that I am important. Legos taught me geometry. Paper aeroplanes taught me aerodynamics and eventually, physics, and so on...

What do the kids nowadays have? Pokemon for encouragement, video games for hand-eye co-ordination, computer classes that teach them how to USE a computer but not actually how it WORKS, and absent parents, handout grades for school funding as implemented by "The Decider" Mr. Bush and his "No Child Left" idea... oh wait I forgot the "behind" part. Maybe I should just say ass.

I could rant forever about the dumbditude (yes it is a word... well it is now anyways) of my immediately younger high schoolers/college kid age people who I am supposed to work with, pretend to treat like adults, and just put up with how shallow and unedumacationed they are.

That isn't Rogers' fault. That isn't Fox News or MSNBCs fault. That is what happens in a culture of misinformed brainwashed placated children raising more misinformed brainwashed placated children.

If we made them study vocabulary instead of forcing them into sunday school , or made them learn the periodic table instead of learning the order of the books of the bible, if we had them WRITING instead of WATCHING, if we had them feeling good about themselves for something they DID instead of feeling good about themselves because they have cool new SHOES, If we taught them about what is REALLY GOING ON in the world instead of watching news footage about BEYONCE at the grammys... I think you all know what I'm getting at... then MAYBE KIDS WOULDN'T BE SO fething STUPID.


How successful are your kids? How well can they read, write, etc?

Please continue to teach us, oh great sensei, because clearly you are the only one tuned into the great energy of this meaningless existence. Clearly things like Sunday School and Pop music degrade our social morality.

You are just a parrot, spouting conflicting views on how to raise children. Please calm down, and refrain from telling us just how hard it was for you coming up, again....


Wow. next time PM me if you want to talk gak. If you have any ideas go ahead and post them, but I am not "just a parrot" any more than anyone else. At least I'm not a rude reductionist piece of gak either.... But anyways...
-----
This has nothing to do with how hard any of us have it coming up, it is drawing a line between the parenting of kids 10 years younger than me, just as a forinstance, and the kids growing up when I did. The difference in work ethic, morals, general knowledge is VAST over a 10 year difference. I'm not griping about how hard it was back in the day man, I'm saying that because it WAS hard I actually came out into the adult world competent and educated, despite going to crappy public schools and all that whiney stuff... instead of emerging as an ignorant unprepared kid with straight As.

Since you asked how successful my kids have been... For the record, I raised Alex as a surrogate little brother since he was 8, walked him to school and signed him in, helped him with his homework through his junior high years, when, if left on his own he would have been ditching school and playing video games because his big brother (my best friend) was away and his mom was a single mom who had to work all the time to support her 5 daughters and all of their random babies... so while I have no kids of my own (thank god), I am still proud of him, as he is 17 now and I really do think of him as a little brother, and probably going to be his high school valedictorian. All he needed was someone to encourage him to be smarter in his decisions, guide him to be good at what the mind is set to, and pay enough attention to help him learn. So um...

what's with your judgemental personal attack? I know how to turn out good kids, and I don't think trying to share my opinion about it is something I should be insulted for. So yeah. bugger off if you don't have anything interesting to say other than insulting me. Next time PM me, unless you have anything constructive to say. Oh... hmmm.... looking back over thread... never mind, don't even bother.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/12 08:21:30


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dogma wrote:
Da Boss wrote:It absolutely boggles my mind that Fox is as successful as it is. It makes me think ungenerous thoughts about the viewing public in the US.


To be fair, my experience tells me that a lot of the viewership is constituted by liberals looking to be angered, and conservatives looking for catharsis. I've only met a couple people that legitimately get taken in by the nonsense, and they weren't the sort that I credited with an abundance of mental fortitude.


Yeah this is true boss. My missus and I love watching fox. I even listen to Sean hannity on the radio, and its cos the stuff is pure comedy!

Most yanks aren't as daft as European people tend to think when they see fox and stereotype them all and most seem to watch it for comedy value.

Not a single member of our lasses friends or family takes it seriously.


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Way on back in the deep caves

I agree with what Guitardian wrote.
Parents today seem to be all too eager to blame the way their children turn out on anything but their poor parenting skills.

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Phryxis wrote:I say it that way to clarify that I mean the American media, not the global media, and I say "Democrats," because, while the Democrats are left of American center, they're actually pretty centrist/conservative by the standards of many European countries.


Yeah, I agree, as long we recognise the simple left/right axis doesn't account for every issue. The Democrats are as right wing or more right wing than the mainstream right wing party of just about every developed country on tax policy, welfare and other economic issues, but in other places they're fairly right wing - they're certainly a lot more protectionist than right wing parties elsewhere.

I disagree strongly... Political bias IS the story. I agree, first and foremost, they're trying to make money. But, when people go to make money, they generally try to find a way to do it that's congruent with their values.


I really wish media coverage wash congruent with people's values. We might get substance and informed opinion instead of the hype hype hype sensationalism we get instead. If it ended up with a liberal or conservative bias as result of that, it'd still be worth it, because the sheer lack of substance in news media today is a bigger problem than any bias.

The people that run the mainstream media in America are "liberals" by and large. So they feel that the way to get people consuming their product is to create an enemy, hype that enemy up, and get people frothy to hear more reasons that enemy is bad.

It's like any form of TV. You create a villain, then you get people tuning in to see what the villain has done today.

That villain is conservatives, and now, as you say, Fox news.


It's a big assumption that the only, or major, or even significant villain is conservatives. There is certainly villification of the wealthy, but there's no shortage of villification of ethnic minorities, other nations, the poor...

Why do you think Keith Olbermann has a "Worst Person in the World" segment on his show?


Because he's a hack that's fallen into a simple 'us vs them' dialectic?

Unfortunately for them, as you point out, it's not all that effective for the left, because they already control almost all the media. Nothing in particular pushes people to watch them over one of the dozens of other sources of liberal propaganda. But Fox is virtually alone as the sole conservative propaganda machine, so it profits massively.


FOX News' point of difference isn't that it's right wing and everyone else is left, that's just FOX News' crappy justification to keep pushing their yellow journalism. FOX News' point of differentiation is that they are overtly biased towards one political faction, to the point where supporting and reinforcing the ideas of that political faction over and above any other concerns for substance.

The business model used by the other channels is more traditional, to just show whatever shocks and scares people, regardless of politics.

If you look at our elections, they're very close almost every year. The country is very evenly split... And, if I'm not mistaken, Fox gets roughly the same viewership as all the other news orgs combined. Fox gets the conservatives, the others get the liberals.


They dominate cable news. Which is great for them, but Cable news is very minor compared to overall news coverage. Look what happened when O'Reilly moved off of FOX and tried his hand at a network show, he got decent ratings by the standards of his FOX show, but woeful ratings compared to what is expected on network television.

Looked at it terms of ratings the cable news channels are minor, even if you combine them all. FOX matters because so many of the right wing talking points begin with FOX, and they're often very dubious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Phryxis wrote:Some might say that his attacks on Jones were false, but if that's truly the case, he wouldn't have been cut loose.


That's a very odd belief about the principles of the Democrats you have there. Cutting political inconveniences loose in the hope the right wing will stop criticising them is the one thing you can count on the Democrats doing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/13 03:03:17


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Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Public perception has always been more important than truth insofar as politics are concerned.


Well, sorta... In this case, the truth was the truth, and public perception wasn't favorable towards that sort of truth.

I'm not suggesting that Van Jones did anything illegal, or there was some sort of legal basis that he had to be dismissed. In the end, what it comes down to is that Obama is NOT a moderate, that he was staffing his cabinet with radicals, and that it so obviously true that even a guy like Beck can spot it and make a convincing case.

What's disturbing about it for me, is that it comes down to a clown like Beck to force Obama's hand. Where were the "journalists" on this thing? You can bet they'd be all over a Republican appointment with similarly extremist history and views.

There is certainly villification of the wealthy, but there's no shortage of villification of ethnic minorities, other nations, the poor...


There is very little villainization of ethnic minorities. Minorities are a protected class in the liberal ideology, and the media know this rule.

There is certainly demonization of other nations. China is a big one.

They never demonize the poor, as far as I can see. Again, victims, thus a protected class.

Now, I don't mean to say that the conservatives are the only villain... They're just the most popular, and the one the media go back to time and time again.



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In your base, ignoring your logic.

When I was 3 I lived in a trailer park and my dad let me watch all the B movies I would enjoy while my mom fretted about Wizard of Oz being too scary for me.

I too had to work for my grades, a 93 was a B. We had no B+, we had no B-, we had solid letters. The lowest score we could get and pass was a 64(used to be 70). I studied hard, took 5 AP classes and got 4's on every one of them.

I was messing up in Calculus and I switched my study room to my math teacher's room so I could get help.

Now they're considering adding the pluses in, but not the minuses, and I missed my scholarship by .1 in my GPA.

I have a 2.67 in college now, but I'm taking organic chem, physics, calc 3, and upper level psychologies now.

I'm only 20.

I watched Mr. Rodgers when I was young and he was the second best person on the television compared to Bill Nye the Science Guy. Mr. Rodgers taught me to be a decent person and my parents helped to enforce it while saying I shouldn't do stuff that I saw on the sci-fi channels. It really is amazing how some television shows have stuff that even parents should learn from and enforce in their children while others don't.

Its a shame there aren't too many shows on tv similar to Mr. Rodgers, we teach the kids spanish, we teach them math, we teach them letters, but we don't teach them how to be decent enough as humans. Sesame Street gets a little bit of it, but nowhere near the dosages Mr. Rodgers prescribed.

For example, I work at a toy store and know my way around the inventory system and such. Last week, a family friend who we haven't really seen in almost a year was looking for a toy for her son. We didn't have it, but a store a mile away did. So I went on a roadtrip with my brother and a visiting cousin to get it. I paid for it and brought it back to them(getting there at about 9:30ish) and even though she wanted to pay me, I didn't want the money.

My friends and I cleaned out a shed that had dead rats in it and the lady we did it for was older and wanted to pay us $80 each. We told her not to worry and that if she really wanted to pay us, lunch would be nice(it was around 90 degrees in the shed as it was near the summer). The only reason we got paid $80 each was because she put it at the bottom of a pizza box we took home with us when we were done.

Same lady wants to pay me and my brother a total of $400 to paint the same shed. We are currently negotiating the price down.

The people I babysit for knew that I got a raise at work and wanted to give me a raise as well, I turned it down as I make a lot from it already( $7.00 an hour for a 4, 6, and 7 year old). I make $7.85 working retail and I'm blessed to have a job.

You do stuff for your friends for free, and when you do it for free you still give that extra 10% because its the nice thing to do. You don't ask for too much money. You don't try to take advantage of people. You work hard and earn what you earn.

Thank you Mr. Rodgers and my parents for teaching me all of that.
   
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awesome. I shall re-adjust my current bias against the teens and tweenties. Thank you again Rogers. You helped save another one!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/13 05:19:16


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In your base, ignoring your logic.

Rodger's wasn't a sniper though, how about an ex-green beret? That one was aways popular around my neck of the woods.
   
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Phryxis wrote:There is very little villainization of ethnic minorities. Minorities are a protected class in the liberal ideology, and the media know this rule.


They'll never say 'black people are bad' but they when faced between the story of 'mosque at ground zero causes outrage' and 'mosque focussed on reconciliation of Islam and the West to be built a few blocks ground zero'... they choose the version that sounds more scary.

There is certainly demonization of other nations. China is a big one.


Yep, what's scarier than the US being overtaken by socialist villain China? There's no agenda, it's just a good story regardless of facts or context, so it gets play.

They never demonize the poor, as far as I can see. Again, victims, thus a protected class.


Stories of welfare queens and fraud are a constant, and never are these stories given in the context of actual rates of fraud in the welfare system. Never is the cost of that fraud put against the cost of fraud and corruption at the top end of town, which is several orders of magnitude greater.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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United States

Phryxis wrote:I'm not suggesting that Van Jones did anything illegal, or there was some sort of legal basis that he had to be dismissed. In the end, what it comes down to is that Obama is NOT a moderate, that he was staffing his cabinet with radicals, and that it so obviously true that even a guy like Beck can spot it and make a convincing case.

What's disturbing about it for me, is that it comes down to a clown like Beck to force Obama's hand. Where were the "journalists" on this thing? You can bet they'd be all over a Republican appointment with similarly extremist history and views.


Van Jones wasn't a member of the cabinet. He was a 'czar' on what I consider to be a throwaway White House committee on the environment. Given the the nature, and breadth, of the American environmentalist movement I don't consider Van Jones to be any more radical than someone like Eric J. Keroack; who also flew under the radar despite his views on premarital sex, and his tendency to prescribe drugs to people he wasn't treating.




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'mosque at ground zero causes outrage' and 'mosque focussed on reconciliation of Islam and the West to be built a few blocks ground zero'... they choose the version that sounds more scary.


Well, your version has more words....

And, honestly, I think they'd say something more like "Tea Party Riots Over Ground Zero Mosque." Never miss an opportunity to be confused by and scared of the Tea Party!

As an experiment, I just googled "mosque" on the "news" tab.

Fox News Poll: 64 Percent Think It's Wrong to Build Mosque Near ...‎
The great "Ground Zero mosque" hoax‎ - Washington Post (blog)
Obama may address Ground Zero mosque issue tonight‎ - USA Today
Intolerance Zoning and the Ground Zero Mosque‎ - TIME (blog)

Free Speech Wins A Narrow Victory In New York‎
FOXNews - Pamela Geller - 9 hours ago

The absurdity of the anti-mosque camp‎ - Washington Post (blog)


The Fox News ones are both anti-mosque, the others are pro-mosque.

Like all zealots, all I see in the world is confirming data, and this is confirming data for me. You've got Fox saying one thing, everyone else saying the opposite, and they're all kinda angry about it. You've also got 64% of people agreeing with Fox news.

This is exactly what I'm describing. Setting aside judgement of the mosque, and of people who pontificate on the mosque, in the end what it comes down to is that 64% of Americans think building the mosque is "wrong," and only ONE news organization is willing to take that side.

This is why I say that there's a bias in the media. They're not mainsteam Americans, they're liberal intellectuals.

Is it really the job of journalists to teach us what to think? I think that job is actually called "propagandist."

Now, that's not to say that I agree with the 64%, but I feel that at times you have to pull back, accept that people have different opinions, and look at the dynamics at work without getting embroiled in the issue itself.

For people that claim to be concilliatory and compassionate, liberals are very casual about dominating the discourse and shouting over those that think differently. Is it any wonder that Fox news is so sensationalistic and bombastic? They're a symptom of a debate where volume has replaced logic, they're not the cause of it.

So, if nothing else, not only does it seem to me that the headlines aren't as you suggest they are, but if they were, they'd actually agree with what most Americans think. This is not sensationalism based journalism, this is ideology based journalism.

Stories of welfare queens and fraud are a constant


That's not my experience. I see countless stories about people out of work, people who can't pay their bills, etc.

Now, to be fair, they also had stories of abuse of government money after Katrina, etc. etc. But right now the economy is slow, and they're running lots of victim stories.

Van Jones wasn't a member of the cabinet. He was a 'czar' on what I consider to be a throwaway White House committee on the environment.


Correct, I mistakenly thought that all the people that a President hires to advise him in an official capacity are his "cabinet."

Eric J. Keroack; who also flew under the radar


Well, it seems like he didn't right? He was in for about half a year, then got run out for precisely the reasons you describe. It wasn't exactly big news, but then again, I don't think anybody really knows who Van Jones is, either.

I also think that Keroak's views are far more mainstream than Jones', his problems are more legal and ethical than ideological.

All presidents deal with their cronies having ethics issues... Just look at Obama's friends in Congress... What's more unusual is the appointment of radicals, which I think it's pretty clear Van Jones is.



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United States

Phryxis wrote:
Obama may address Ground Zero mosque issue tonight‎ - USA Today


Phryxis wrote:
The Fox News ones are both anti-mosque, the others are pro-mosque.


I don't mean to nitpick, but I think this gets at one of my pet peeves about today's judgment of the media. Many times, on both sides of the political spectrum, anything which isn't for your position is perceived as for the opposite position. The USA Today headline is neutral. It doesn't take a stance of the mosque other than to state that it is an issue, which is self-evident from the presence of a series of headlines about it. It also states, flatly, that Obama might address it. These are both base, factual statements and yet many people will interpret this as either a clearly liberal, or conservative headline.

I'm not implying that you did this, Phrxis. I credit you enough to assume that you were simply being general in your comment. I simply noticed that the two quotes, in combination, illustrate the way that otherwise neutral media can be skewed by the perception of the reader.

Phryxis wrote:
Well, it seems like he didn't right? He was in for about half a year, then got run out for precisely the reasons you describe. It wasn't exactly big news, but then again, I don't think anybody really knows who Van Jones is, either.

I also think that Keroak's views are far more mainstream than Jones', his problems are more legal and ethical than ideological.

All presidents deal with their cronies having ethics issues... Just look at Obama's friends in Congress... What's more unusual is the appointment of radicals, which I think it's pretty clear Van Jones is.


Van Jones isn't a radical in the environmentalist movement. He may look that way to someone that hasn't had a lot of contact with it, but he was one of the more popular figures in what was, and is, a very widespread (geographically and politically) ideological group. That's why I compared him to Keroack. Keroack doesn't appear radical to a very large segment of the American public because his views aren't terribly different from their own, but to the average liberal, or even centrist libertarian, the dude was a nutbag. He also flew largely under the radar, without major scandal from mainstream media, because no one really knew or cared who he was. Not unlike Van Jones.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/14 03:47:08


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