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Aldarionn wrote:I would like some opinions on a hypothetical situation.

Say a player goes to a tournament. That player brings a list containing a very large number of models and no vehicles, and a fast, tou-flanking unit. His game plan appears to be to go 2nd, and use his large model count to run out the clock, making it impossible for his opponents to push him off of objectives. His out-flanking unit is there to contest an opponents objectives on his last turn, which should be turn 3 at the latest.

As an opponent, am I justified in reporting him to the TO for taking unfair advantage of the clock in a tournament that does not have a rigid turn structure for each player? I know what he is doing is technically legal.....you can move each one of your models and then run with each one of your models even if the moves and runs have no effect on the outcome of the game, but it seems to me that it could be considered cheating.

Just wondering.

Without seeing the dude play it is hard for me to say. For instance having a large model count and then moving them in a reasonable manner (ie decisively and in what I would consider with reasonable quickness) is not a problem at all. Now having a large model count and then taking a lot of time to move them I think COULD be considered cheating. But I would have to see it for myself to get a feeling one way or the other.

For instance you said that he took up to 30 minutes to move. My question would be did he have at least twice as many models as you?

Anyway off topic a little bit I have always felt that tournaments should have a limit on the amount of time you can spend on a turn. So for instance if you think you should be able to play 5 rounds (10 individual turns) just divide the game time by 10 and that is how long every person has for their turns.

Not really cheating just unsportsmen.

brettz123 wrote:

Anyway off topic a little bit I have always felt that tournaments should have a limit on the amount of time you can spend on a turn. So for instance if you think you should be able to play 5 rounds (10 individual turns) just divide the game time by 10 and that is how long every person has for their turns.

I totally agree with that.. Its irritating that virtually no tournaments do this. However, as a TO myself, the main reason for this is you got like 1-2 judges because its volunteer. Its hard to enforce such a policy without more judges and have the tournament still be fun

RxGhost wrote:I don't disagree, Carm, it'd be almost impossible to tell one way or the other but when it appeared in a tournament I was running, I didn't make the distinction. One player continually ran down the clock in 3 of his 4 games...they didn't make it past turn 3, even. Whether this was intentional or not he was still heavily penalized in his battle scores for not getting games finished.

yes, but the question wasnt should he be penalized, thats up to each player. The question was "is this guy cheating" which is harder to prove that he's intentionally doing it.

Penalizing his score, or forcing him into another turn are fine solutions, but thats not what was asked.

I played one such player in the most recent tourney I went to. 208 Orks and we only finished 4 turns. If I have a choice I will never play that style army at a tourney again and I will probably say something about it to the organizer. While technically legal, it is extremely poor sportsmanship IMO.

Cheers, Gary

silashand wrote:I played one such player in the most recent tourney I went to. 208 Orks and we only finished 4 turns. If I have a choice I will never play that style army at a tourney again and I will probably say something about it to the organizer. While technically legal, it is extremely poor sportsmanship IMO.

Cheers, Gary

I don't like to play a specific type of army which counters my army so I will complain that it should be banned so my army can do better.

If you tried to have my armylist thrown out of a tourney before we started playing, that makes you an extremely poor sport.

I don't see why if I take a unit of 30 orks, I am a poor sport, but if I take the equivalent of trukk boyz which can be moved in 2 seconds opposed to 30 seconds, I am a good sport? It is part of the game and it is unfair that people who don't take the mech equivalent unit for all their slots are punished with extra rules.

Playing a horde that takes longer than a MECH army is not 'slow play'. It may be slower than you like but you don't have the right to equal play or for other armies to play as fast as your army as the game is not designed around that. Adding that rule to the rulebook damages the metagame and all the units in the game would need to be rebalanced in points if we had a blood-bowl turntimer as some units would be taken with the expectation of running out of time.

The timed turns things is done for Warmachine/Hordes, and seems to work pretty well from what I've heard. Still learning the rules so I'm not ready for a timed event, just yet!

I like the sound of ones where you can store up time best. So for instance, where Dash posted he only needs 10-15 minutes for turn 1 and 2, he can try to go fast and store time for turn 3 when he needs more time.

This does tend to lead to people taking a more limited number of lists, however, since there just isn't time for a Really high body count with most time limits.

nkelsch wrote:I don't like to play a specific type of army which counters my army so I will complain that it should be banned so my army can do better.

If you tried to have my armylist thrown out of a tourney before we started playing, that makes you an extremely poor sport.

That is complete and utter bull. I go to a tournament to play *games*. If I cannot complete said game because my opponent has too many models to move in an appropriate amount of time then that's contrary to the basic tenet of the event. I have no problem playing against any type of army. However, when I am told I have two hours to complete the game I do my utmost to make sure I can accommodate that and I expect my opponents to do the same. If that means making hard choices about what type of army they have to bring then so be it. In short, either they learn to play their army fast enough so the game can be completed in time or they bring a different army, period. Anything else is being inconsiderate of your opponent, is EXTREMELY poor sportsmanship and borders on cheating because it violates the rule that games must be completed in a certain timeframe.

I don't see why if I take a unit of 30 orks, I am a poor sport, but if I take the equivalent of trukk boyz which can be moved in 2 seconds opposed to 30 seconds, I am a good sport? It is part of the game and it is unfair that people who don't take the mech equivalent unit for all their slots are punished with extra rules.

If you cannot move your horde of Orks in a time necessary to finish all turns of the game as allowed by the event, and you still choose to bring said army then yes, you are a poor sport. If you can complete it in time then I have no issue with it. However, of all the horde armies I've seen at events over the past few years, few of the players were able to do so and IMO that shows a casual disregard for their opponents. You know in advance how long you have to play the games. If you cannot abide by that restriction then you have no business bringing such an army to that event.

Playing a horde that takes longer than a MECH army is not 'slow play'. It may be slower than you like but you don't have the right to equal play or for other armies to play as fast as your army as the game is not designed around that.

I have a right to finish the game in the time allotted by the event. If you don't agree with the timeframes provided then take it up with the organizers beforehand. Do not wait to the event and then subject your opponent to an incomplete game because you didn't want to comply with requirements that were stated up front.

Cheers, Gary

RiTides wrote:The timed turns things is done for Warmachine/Hordes, and seems to work pretty well from what I've heard. Still learning the rules so I'm not ready for a timed event, just yet!

It works really well. You get one two minute extension per game, other wise you get between 6-12 minutes to move and fight with everything you have. Once dice downs are called you resolve your current activation and it's the next guys turn. It promotes fast and vicious play where you don't get to kick back. I've known people to run 60+ models and have no issues with 12 minute turns.

Of course our rule set is different and the most common tournament scenario seems to be Killbox, which means that top of turn 2 everything is required to be all up in everything else's grill.

I think its very unsportsmanlike and Generally would only be employed by a WAAC player. Because slowing the game down until time is called is in fact trying to not play the game at all. Just so you have some points for the win on a tourny slip. That being said I've played great tournament games against more beer and pretzel gamers where we only got in 3 turns and had fun. I've also played a guy in second round game 2 of ard boys whom realized he couldn't win and slow played to a draw. (over all i still got first and he got second... take that cheater!) The reason I say all that is because knowing your opponent is slow playing and proving to a TO that they built and play that strategy into a tournament is 2 completely different beasts. I would try to keep polls more impartial in the answers though as is seems your just trying to get people to agree with you and not really wondering if it is or not. It seems a little partial.
LBB

(edited for spellzasouraus rex!)

I've read comments today saying it's unsporting to bring a list that won't readily allow for complete games. I've also read comments saying it would be unsporting to try to block certain list types from entering.

Both of course, have some validity. Part of the problem comes from TOs not giving enough time: Even when I play mid sized armies quickly, I've been at places where I was running against the clock the entire time. Two hours for for even 1500pts is getting a bit tight.

There are ways for horde players to speed up their turns, of course. Rollling runs and tacking that unto the movement phase saves a ton of time. worrying more about the overall "footprint" of a unit than placing each model just so also helps. Conversely, if you're facing a horde army and using blasts, having a quick chat can smooth some stuff over. If you have max long fangs, and I have a green tide, than I NEED to spread my horde out. Leaving four models too close, out of 180, can dramatically increase my casualties. Perhaps assuring your opponent that you won't find the one clump of models to target wil enable him to move quicker.

Slow players don't need a high model count. I've been slow played by mech sisters, and 3rd edition alaitoc, among many others. A player that wants to run the clock down will do that.

If you play a horde player, and you can't come up with a way to speed the game up through negotiation, than you have a problem. But if the guy just wants to play a horde, and is willing to batch move and add runs and seems to make decisions and makes his plays with speed, than time running out is the fault of the TO, not either player.

Polonius wrote:There are ways for horde players to speed up their turns, of course. Rollling runs and tacking that unto the movement phase saves a ton of time.

It's also cheating.

A little more explanation: for a lot of Fleet units, knowing how far you'll be able to Run in the shooting phase, while performing your Move actions, will directly impact where you choose to move in the first place. Even for non-Fleet units, the extra bit of Run movement allows units to move past each other in ways that doing the normal "Move everything, then Run" progression would never permit, or to be much more certain about screening/avoiding mutli-charges/spreading out for blasts than is normally the case.

Much of the time, I don't mind when people do this on turn 1, or coming on from Reserve (but out of assault range of anything), but it's not something that should be encouraged, or that I'm sanguine about in later turns.

Some of the best ways I've got for speeding horde play:
1) Deployment trays. You lose a LOT of time grabbing 3-4 models at a time from your display board, placing them, and turning back again. If you can grab the whole unit at once, you can deploy much faster.
2) Dice tray/bowl. It's much faster to scoop up the handfuls of dice from a contained space, and you'll have fewer rerolls from cocked dice, etc.
3) AFTER checking with your opponent, only precision move the front row of your units, and move the others up while maintaining the formation. If necessary, use a 2" measure to "fix" your rear ranks during your opponent's actions.

Well, it's cheating if done without opponent permission. I've generally told opponents that I've got no problem on turn 1, but any time a roll can impact the game, they have to wait.

My larger point is that there are ways to work with horde players. Part of what takes so long is that the rules really do depend on where every model is (for blasts) or that every model has to be moved twice (for runs). If a player wants to take advantage of those rules against a horde player, than they have to expect a horde player to keep them in mind. OTOH, if both players agree to allow the game to play out despite cutting a few corners, it can dramatically speed the game up.

Janthkin wrote:

Polonius wrote:There are ways for horde players to speed up their turns, of course. Rollling runs and tacking that unto the movement phase saves a ton of time.

It's also cheating.

A little more explanation: for a lot of Fleet units, knowing how far you'll be able to Run in the shooting phase, while performing your Move actions, will directly impact where you choose to move in the first place. Even for non-Fleet units, the extra bit of Run movement allows units to move past each other in ways that doing the normal "Move everything, then Run" progression would never permit, or to be much more certain about screening/avoiding mutli-charges/spreading out for blasts than is normally the case.

Much of the time, I don't mind when people do this on turn 1, or coming on from Reserve (but out of assault range of anything), but it's not something that should be encouraged, or that I'm sanguine about in later turns.

Some of the best ways I've got for speeding horde play:
1) Deployment trays. You lose a LOT of time grabbing 3-4 models at a time from your display board, placing them, and turning back again. If you can grab the whole unit at once, you can deploy much faster.
2) Dice tray/bowl. It's much faster to scoop up the handfuls of dice from a contained space, and you'll have fewer rerolls from cocked dice, etc.
3) AFTER checking with your opponent, only precision move the front row of your units, and move the others up while maintaining the formation. If necessary, use a 2" measure to "fix" your rear ranks during your opponent's actions.

If rolling run moves in the movement phase is cheating, then your number 3 is cheating as well.

whitedragon wrote:If rolling run moves in the movement phase is cheating, then your number 3 is cheating as well.

Granted, hence the all-caps qualifier in front of it. But it doesn't have the same in-game impact of move+run: the unit isn't going to be any closer to the enemy (as the closest models are moved carefully), and (assuming you started with a 2" separation between models) a little post-turn adjustment will put everything where it's supposed to be.

I have honestly yet to see an army that a 2000 or even 2500 army that can't finish a game in 2-2.5 hours.

I've played against stuff like hoard tyranids where my opponent is closing in on 200 models, and have finished a game in less than 2 hours.

So tbh, anyone who doesn't complete 5+ turns is usually slow playing, even if its unintentional.

skkipper wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:but a player with a big army needs to be prepared to be able to play that quickly. Other wise if he plays an opponent with a another large army or an opponent who uses half his time to consider his moves then he is screwed.

And its not fair for the people with small army's to have to rush their turns because they are playing an opponent incapable of finishing his go in his half of the allotted time.

And i agree with you that if the tournament is a large enough point level and allows army's a huge size to be taken then the tournament should have enough time per round for a player with 200+ models to play his turn without rushing.

if you have 50 models versus a guy with 200 models and you use half the time. you are slow playing and you really should practice with your army to play faster.

JMHO, but i think it boils down to common courtesy on the part of the horde player. If your going to play 200+ Orks or foot-guard you should at least learn to rapidly move your units and plan your moves to accomodate a time limit BEFORE you decide to enter into a Tourny.

The really sucky part is when players 1 and 2 get riffed by someone slow-playing (whether intentional or not) and end up with scores for ties/losses. If the TO tosses the slowplayer it still leaves those two guys in a no-win slot. It would be unfair to the current top-slots to go back and credit them with an auto-win, but just as unfair that they lose the chance to win the event because of the misfortune of being matched with someone playing loose-and-fast with the rules.

It would be cool to try an event with each side getting a specific time period to complete all actions up to assaults (the assault phase by its very nature being a 2 player interaction). If time runs out, your done. Make your assaults and move onto the next players turn.

Janthkin wrote:
Some of the best ways I've got for speeding horde play:
1) Deployment trays. You lose a LOT of time grabbing 3-4 models at a time from your display board, placing them, and turning back again. If you can grab the whole unit at once, you can deploy much faster.
2) Dice tray/bowl. It's much faster to scoop up the handfuls of dice from a contained space, and you'll have fewer rerolls from cocked dice, etc.
3) AFTER checking with your opponent, only precision move the front row of your units, and move the others up while maintaining the formation. If necessary, use a 2" measure to "fix" your rear ranks during your opponent's actions.

Another good one, which I'm always surprised to see people NOT do: Keep your dice sorted into batches of pre-counted numbers of dice.

For example, I play with 10 green dice, 6 red dice, and 4 black dice on the table. This facilities quick and easy counting for batch rolls. I always have ten or twenty dice handy. If I need a number between 11-19, I can quickly grab the greens and the right number of additional dice. If I need to mix in plasma shots or melta shots or something, the alternate colored dice are right there. You can do the same thing with batches of 15-20 if you need to. Sort the dice into counted batches again during your opponent's movement phase.

Mannahnin wrote:Another good one, which I'm always surprised to see people NOT do: Keep your dice sorted into batches of pre-counted numbers of dice.

For example, I play with 10 green dice, 6 red dice, and 4 black dice on the table. This facilities quick and easy counting for batch rolls. I always have ten or twenty dice handy. If I need a number between 11-19, I can quickly grab the greens and the right number of additional dice. If I need to mix in plasma shots or melta shots or something, the alternate colored dice are right there. You can do the same thing with batches of 15-20 if you need to. Sort the dice into counted batches again during your opponent's movement phase.

Good point, and one so fundamental to my play style I had forgotten I did it. I've got a brick of 36 dice, in 3 colors, that I've been using for 2+ years.

Janthkin wrote:

whitedragon wrote:If rolling run moves in the movement phase is cheating, then your number 3 is cheating as well.

Granted, hence the all-caps qualifier in front of it. But it doesn't have the same in-game impact of move+run: the unit isn't going to be any closer to the enemy (as the closest models are moved carefully), and (assuming you started with a 2" separation between models) a little post-turn adjustment will put everything where it's supposed to be.

I totally understand where you're coming from and all, and I know the point we are trying to all make here, but the same movement shenanigans that can POTENTIALLY take place when rolling runs at the same time as movement, can also take place when moving just the "front rank" and then pushing everybody else up to match. I just think it's a little dishonest to be ok with one vice the other, as they are both tools that we use to speed the game up, but have the potential to be abused.

For example, special weapon troopers in the back, that magically appear right behind the front guys, and such.

However, I still think feel that such movement "tools/considerations" we give and allow are convenient for speeding up the game for a horde.

So, i replied that its technically legal, though unsportsmanlike, and i wouldnt play him again....

and then i saw everyone raggin on Orks, so i thought i would throw down my two cents on this. First and formost i see "Slowhammer" i belive it was called, many times though it wasnt with horde armies, or even orks. It was the Tau, ninja tau as they are called. a tournament player we had would use the tau list and purposly take his time so that he could force the game to end on turn 5 just in time to get his units he held in reserve to come in and shoot onto objectives. He would always try to go second, although this is legal, and a good tournament strat, its a very poor one toward sportsman and no one really likes it. over the last few tournaments he switched to a Tyranid list because people got sick of it and he got DQ'd from some Tournies. (another thing he would do to waste time is move a devilfish, move it back, move a devilfish, move it back, rince repeat 6-8 times)

as i TO sometimes, i personally take a strong stance against playing slow with the intent to do so, and you will know it when it happens as inexpeirenced players and those players who play slow cause they are slow will almost always exept help on it. those trying to waste alot of time dont really want help.


Just saying i really dislike it, and yes it happens in almost every tournament i have been to, the players wasting time never do that well though, because alot of good players can think of good ways to make sure they dont get rolled over by a lack of time playing

(i did get awarded a massacre vs an opponent for slowrollin on me....again a tau player though not the same above. it was the end of the tournament and i had massacred my other two opponents and this player was the last and he really shouldnt have been playing against me as he had not won a single game in the two days of events....but the TO put him on me since he hadnt played me yet....we got to turn 2 by the 2 hour mark....and even then all his vehicles were gone and he was locked in one assualt, the TO awarded it to me, as the player admited he was trying to waste my time and ruin my score so i wouldnt take a good spot at the end)

In terms of timing, maybe you don't have to place a limit on it, but you could still keep track of it for a reference. Only use it in case of a complaint.

At the end of a 2 hour game the chess clock could show that I spent 40 minutes on my turns and the opponent spent 1 hr 20 minutes on his turn, which could be used to settle an argument. Did he take so much time playing Grey Knights in Land Raiders? Or did I have a 40 model army while he had a 120 model army? Just keeping track would allow a TO to resolve these arguments with some hard evidence, without getting into the ridiculous time limit systems that would never work.

For people who play horde armies, you need to realize that you should not get special consideration just because you decided to bring 200 models. Your opponent should not have less chance of winning just because the army you selected hogs the time allotted. If there are going to be time limits, then each player should be alloted 50 percent of the available time to be fair. It is too much to ask a player to do well in a tournie when he only gets 3 rounds of play in because he has the bad luck to draw a horde as his opponent. I have no problem with hordes, as long as they do not get an unfair advantage or give the opponent a disadvantage just by being a horde.

There are numerous ways to play faster...if you cannot manage it then don't bring a horde...don't make your opponent suffer for your inadequacy or your poor sense of sportsmanship.

And if you have 50 models and you take half the time as your opponent, no--you are not slowplaying it. You just have a luxury of playing slower since your army doesn't demand that you have to play at a breakneck pace in order to be fair. I love hordes in a friendly game, but I wouldn't take it to a tournie until I practiced more and got faster. And if I took ANY army and hogged the time, whether intentionally or unintentionally, I would fully expect my opponent and the TO to address my time hogging.

Nightrave wrote:....we got to turn 2 by the 2 hour mark....and even then all his vehicles were gone and he was locked in one assualt, the TO awarded it to me, as the player admited he was trying to waste my time and ruin my score so i wouldnt take a good spot at the end

This type of attitude I can never understand why would someone even have this idea. We are playing a game to have fun, a tournament is meant to amplify the fun. If you had a bad go for your first few games, why not tell your opponent so and agree to concede but still play a friendly game. Get a TO to approve so no one claims shenanigans and then have a grand time wiping each other out in a stressless match.

Instead I have heard over and over again how we get upset and storm out or cause a big row for nothing. end of rant

Playing slowly on purpose ins't illegal but definatly takes the fun out of the game, I imagine a little gnome looking fellow with a big nose standing across from me when I see someone posting a comment on how they or somebody uses this as a "tactic". Not necessarily a bad guy but definatly a little git.

Shenra wrote:For people who play horde armies, you need to realize that you should not get special consideration just because you decided to bring 200 models. Your opponent should not have less chance of winning just because the army you selected hogs the time allotted. If there are going to be time limits, then each player should be alloted 50 percent of the available time to be fair. It is too much to ask a player to do well in a tournie when he only gets 3 rounds of play in because he has the bad luck to draw a horde as his opponent. I have no problem with hordes, as long as they do not get an unfair advantage or give the opponent a disadvantage just by being a horde.

There are numerous ways to play faster...if you cannot manage it then don't bring a horde...don't make your opponent suffer for your inadequacy or your poor sense of sportsmanship.

Just to build off of this, a horde player should be able to perform all his action in exactly half the time. If you take a horde army but cannot finish your turns in a timely manner, you might be fine when up against mechanized GK or SM, but you will have problems against other horde players. If both horde players bank on having more than half the time for their turns, their game will hardly be started when time is called. If one horde player can play his army in half the time but the other cannot, the one that practiced and learned his army will get cheated out of a full game.

Janthkin wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Another good one, which I'm always surprised to see people NOT do: Keep your dice sorted into batches of pre-counted numbers of dice.

For example, I play with 10 green dice, 6 red dice, and 4 black dice on the table. This facilities quick and easy counting for batch rolls. I always have ten or twenty dice handy. If I need a number between 11-19, I can quickly grab the greens and the right number of additional dice. If I need to mix in plasma shots or melta shots or something, the alternate colored dice are right there. You can do the same thing with batches of 15-20 if you need to. Sort the dice into counted batches again during your opponent's movement phase.

Good point, and one so fundamental to my play style I had forgotten I did it. I've got a brick of 36 dice, in 3 colors, that I've been using for 2+ years.

Quite eseential with orks.) I was running two squads of 15 looters last night, and two big mobs of 30 shoota boyz. Had dice sorted in 15's and 30's. You know you have to throw about 600 shots at a Deathwing army before it goes away?

Shenra wrote:
And if you have 50 models and you take half the time as your opponent, no--you are not slowplaying it. You just have a luxury of playing slower since your army doesn't demand that you have to play at a breakneck pace in order to be fair.

I disagree because 40k is interactive in every phase. When you shoot me, it is BOTH our time. When we are in assault, it is BOTH our time.

How do you measure that? If you assault me and it takes 35 minutes to resolve because all our units happened to clash around the same time, should you be penalized and have your assault cut short at the 15 minute turn level? My models are fighting too. Bloodbowl is not interactive. On my turn, you have ZERO interaction with my rolls and actions, so it makes sense to be timed.

If you begin putting arbitrary times or having players who take small model coutn armies purposfully burning time due to equal play, there is a problem. If you are slow-rolling armor saves to shooting on my time because you hope to cut my assault phase short because of time limits then I have issues.

It is 'ok' for some turns to take a long time, sometimes a lot happens in one turn. It is part of the game. Blaming army builds and setting unreasonable 'euqal play' time rules for a system where there is now ay to failry give equal time doesn't prevent slow-play, it actually increases it and justifies it.

I think people hate having to take heavy bolters and flamers because most opponents are marines, so if they can't handle a horde on the battlefield they will cry until they get them disqualified from tourneys so thier meltas and missile launchers can be optimized against MECH armies and 3+ saves. I feel these people would consider any boring movement phase by any horde army that takes longer than shoving 6 pillboxes around is 'too long' and unfair.

TOs need to make games longer and players need to make a distinction between something that takes a longer time and someone playing slowhammer.

nkelsch wrote:Blaming army builds and setting unreasonable 'equal play' time rules for a system where there is no way to fairly give equal time doesn't prevent slow-play, it actually increases it and justifies it.

No it does not. It ensures that each player has an equitable amount of time in which to complete his/her turn regardless the army they bring. As someone else said, if two horde players show up and expect to both get extra time for their turns that is simply not possible. What you are saying is that special consideration should be given for those players who want to bring those large armies. Given the overall time constraints of an event it is the *PLAYERS* who have to accommodate the time limit, not the organizers.

TOs need to make games longer and players need to make a distinction between something that takes a longer time and someone playing slowhammer.

I take it you have never actually run an event before? The reason there are time limits is because in order to play 3-4 games in one day you have no choice but to implement time limits in order to accomplish the games and all the other associated tasks such as scoring between rounds, lunch/breaks, awards at the end of the event, setup/tear down, etc. Asking TOs to make the games longer so you can bring a specific army that you know won't fit within the time constraints is naive at best. At worst it's inconsiderate of those putting on the event. They are doing you a favor by providing the event in the first place. The least you could do is show them the consideration of abiding by the limits they place which are there to help everyone have a good time.

Cheers, Gary

When playing my orks, if I move or run without other action, (assault/shooting) ill ask my opponent if I could just move the front line. If he agrees, I do, continue with the rest of my turn and during his movement phase, I'll move the boyz in the back. Saves a ton of time.

I don't like other people touching my painted models unless its someone I know. Greasy grubby fingers are not welcome!