Manchu wrote:Canon can be undone. The "facts" of a fictional world can be rewritten. Yes, GW cannot change the fact that they commissioned Ian Watson to write Space Marine and then published it. But GW can certainly say "we no longer consider the events recounted in this book to reflect the Warhammer 40,000 backstory" -- which is pretty much what they have said or as close to it as they have ever come.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Manchu wrote:Canon can be undone. The "facts" of a fictional world can be rewritten. Yes, GW cannot change the fact that they commissioned Ian Watson to write Space Marine and then published it. But GW can certainly say "we no longer consider the events recounted in this book to reflect the Warhammer 40,000 backstory" -- which is pretty much what they have said or as close to it as they have ever come.

That's true, however the nature of the 40K canon is such that a book printed with HERESY TOME stamped on it merely becomes part of the black library of literature proscribed by the IoM because the facts recounted within are the truth, and must be suppressed to promote belief in the current version of history.

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Manchu wrote:Canon can be undone. The "facts" of a fictional world can be rewritten. Yes, GW cannot change the fact that they commissioned Ian Watson to write Space Marine and then published it. But GW can certainly say "we no longer consider the events recounted in this book to reflect the Warhammer 40,000 backstory" -- which is pretty much what they have said or as close to it as they have ever come.

That's true, however the nature of the 40K canon is such that a book printed with HERESY TOME stamped on it merely becomes part of the black library of literature proscribed by the IoM because the facts recounted within are the truth, and must be suppressed to promote belief in the current version of history.

If there were dozens upon dozens of books with that stamp, you'd be right.

But there's just the one example, which they describe as "Although the temptation was great to rewrite significant portions of this book to make it conform to current background, as a curiosity piece, an historical snapshot of the Warhammer 40,000 universe circa the early 1990s, this book is invaluable."--it's safe to say ignore this book for canonical purposes.

Kilkrazy wrote:If only one such book has been discovered thus far, it shows the terrifying power of the Inquisition in managing to suppress the others.

(Not really quoting Dan! Just citing source! )Dan Abnett wrote:@ntrisley That's a tricky one. Not actually sure that BL considers it canonical anymore, but don't quote me on that. Still great, though.

Black Library wrote:@ntrisley You may want to take a look at our Print on Demand FAQ - http://bit.ly/e1JrQz - your answer about heretic tomes is there

Black Library FAQ wrote:Why do some Print on Demand titles have a Heretic Tomes logo on them?

Some of the titles in our back catalogue no longer accurately reflect the fictional universes of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 and would require extensive rewriting to bring them up to date. Rather than keep these titles on the shelf, we’ve decided to reprint them but make it quite clear that these books are not to be considered an accurate portrayal of the Warhammer or Warhammer 40,000 universe.

("Marc Gascoigne - The Black Library and Black Flame Publisher")

Spoiler:

Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

As I ventured outside I was confronted with the sight of some Kroot carnivores devouring the bodies of those we had killed in battle. Though distasteful, I was not surprised by this and paid no more mind to their feasting than I had on previous occasions. Later events would show how costly an oversight this was to be.

As Slaanesh’s army approached our allies, horrifying changes began rippling through the Kroot and they began convulsing, screeching horribly as their flesh erupted in mutation. At this point I realised that these were the Kroot who had feasted on the flesh of the enemy dead at Fio’kai. Slaanesh’s main thrust suddenly altered direction and, instead of charging the Kroot, began heading towards my position.

Thousands of years ago, when an Ork asteroid fortress, known as a Rok, crash landed on Pech, the survivors found themselves in the unenviable position of being outnumbered by a warrior race with a taste for flesh. The Orks were quickly destroyed and their bodies consumed by the Kroot. The Kroot laired in the Rok and, several generations later, they manifested the ability to mimic certain aspects of technology learned from the DNA of the dead Ork Meks. Around the remains of the shattered Ork Rok, the first Kroot city began to take shape as the inherited knowledge of technology became more commonplace.

Within the space of a few thousand years, Pech's prime continent was home to five Kroot hives, and factory farming and mining were commonplace. This became known as the Kroot expansionist phase and saw the Kroot construct warp-capable warspheres to take them to the stars.

Here, the Kroot met the Orks once more, but this lime the balance of power had changed. Untested leaders and untried ways of war failed the Kroot in the face of Ork brutality and they were pushed back on every front by the more aggressive Greenskins. However, each world the Orks took remained a thorn in their side as Kroot guerrillas continued to fight the invaders. Eventually, the Kroot were forced to take service as mercenaries with various alien races in order to survive. After twenty years of war, the Kroot (with Tau assistance) were able to reclaim their worlds with minimal resistance as the Orks had simply engaged in looting and destruction on a massive scale before moving on.

The Kroot now looked to rebuild their worlds as they had been before the Ork incursion, but those Kroot who had remained behind to fight the Orks had other ideas. They were not about to rebuild a society that had led them into war and then failed to defend them. Led by a visionary leader named Anghkor Prok, they advocated a return to the old ways, to the time before the coming of the Ork Rok. There would be no rebuilding and the Kroot would revert to the traditional ways that had served them perfectly well for thousands of years. A compromise was reached where each kindred would spend time as mercenaries and fight for other races, returning to their home world periodically to pass on any useful genetic material they had acquired following their victories. A number of warspheres remained on Pech to guard against further invasions and the mercenary Kroot departed to ply their trade amongst the stars.

The Kroot place great respect on those that have gone before them, their genetic forefathers, and ancestor worship is extremely common on the Kroot home worlds. Older Kroot are respected for their accumulated wisdom and the genetic material they have gathered throughout their lives. When a Kroot dies, his immediate family consumes the body and thus precious genetic material is preserved within the kindred.

haloreach4ever wrote:I reckon the kroot are sending mercinarys out to other empires so they can eat the wounded after the battle and gain the info they know. then they give this info to the tau to help further the greater good!

KROOT MERCENARIES
White Dwarf #265

Unfortunately, the Tau insistence that the Kroot fight exclusively for them would lead to a disastrous stagnation, as they have absorbed the traits of most of the creatures from within the Tau region. To collect as wide a range of characteristics as possible, they secretly despatch entire armies of mercenaries to fight alongside other races in order to expose themselves to creatures and environments not found in Tau space.

Kroothawk wrote:
And yes, the most recent definition on what Space Marines are (Deathwatch rulebook) explicitely includes this "forget the manual, jut eat the instructor's brain" thing. Most authors don't use this stupid fluff, but some recent ones like McNeill in "Courage and Honour" do (and it was a Tetra vehicle), a really bad novel for sure.

-Loki- wrote:Heh, so if the Kroot end up devouring a hive fleet, somethig that does what they're trying to do a million times better, I guess we'd end up with a second hive mind.

reds8n wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:2) "Courage and Honour", which is a Graham McNeill book...which is about one step up from C.S. Goto fanwank when it comes to the "canon" value you can take from it.

hmm... I can't agree here. He's written some of the foundation "stones" of the current 40K setting, so much so that parts of his work are included in the codices themselves.

The fact that he is capable of remembering to actually use the full range of the Astartes abilties means he should be lauded rather than mocked just because it doesn't fit into your, very specific and far too narrow, view of what the setting is.

Now, I agree that canon can, is and even should be rewritten where appropriate. I think the Ultramarines work much better now than in their first incarnation and background. But there's no harm at all in bringing back, even if only in a tip of the hat type way, older fluff, where appropriate.

This ability of the marines is canon, has been and doesn't appear to be going anywhere soon. It's a well established part of the Deathwatch game for example, and it also, for example, entirely relevant to chapters who are still canon -- like the Blood Drinkers http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Drinkers

reds8n wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
And yes, the most recent definition on what Space Marines are (Deathwatch rulebook) explicitely includes this "forget the manual, jut eat the instructor's brain" thing. Most authors don't use this stupid fluff, but some recent ones like McNeill in "Courage and Honour" do (and it was a Tetra vehicle), a really bad novel for sure.

Actually it's a great novel, very cool, if only for the rage in induces amongst idiotic fanboys.

The problem is that most authors don't quite think through what Astartes can and indeed would do in situations and still keep trying to write/use them as if they're nothing more than superstrong humans and fail to use the full variety of of their abilities and skills.

Kilkrazy wrote:

-Loki- wrote:Heh, so if the Kroot end up devouring a hive fleet, somethig that does what they're trying to do a million times better, I guess we'd end up with a second hive mind.

The Shapers have stopped the Kroot from eating Tyranids.

It's surprising that they didn't stop them from eating Chaotics, but then the plot would have been different.

reds8n wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
And yes, the most recent definition on what Space Marines are (Deathwatch rulebook) explicitely includes this "forget the manual, jut eat the instructor's brain" thing. Most authors don't use this stupid fluff, but some recent ones like McNeill in "Courage and Honour" do (and it was a Tetra vehicle), a really bad novel for sure.

Actually it's a great novel, very cool, if only for the rage in induces amongst idiotic fanboys.

Kroothawk wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
And yes, the most recent definition on what Space Marines are (Deathwatch rulebook) explicitely includes this "forget the manual, jut eat the instructor's brain" thing. Most authors don't use this stupid fluff, but some recent ones like McNeill in "Courage and Honour" do (and it was a Tetra vehicle), a really bad novel for sure.

Actually it's a great novel, very cool, if only for the rage in induces amongst idiotic fanboys.

Actually, the novel has not a single original idea, just the usual mindless run-of-the-mill Space Marine fanwank. You have to be an idiotic Space Marine fanboy to enjoy such a badly written novel (I had to read it as people started to misquote the novel in Tau/Kroot hater threads, so now I can prove they lied).

Kilkrazy wrote:They'll get spanked. Spase Mariens usually do badly in 40K Novels. It's a bit unfair, really.

Kroothawk wrote:Actually, the novel has not a single original idea, just the usual mindless run-of-the-mill Space Marine fanwank.
[/quote

Rubbish. It follows on exceedingly well from what's been pre established in the earlier books in the series.

You have to be an idiotic Space Marine fanboy to enjoy such a badly written novel (I had to read it as people started to misquote the novel in Tau/Kroot hater threads, so now I can prove they lied).

Such as it not including any original ideas presumably ? Perhaps you should try reading it again, perhaps that way your comments won't come across as quite so ridiculously hyperbolic and uniformed.

reds8n wrote:Rubbish. It follows on exceedingly well from what's been pre established in the earlier books in the series.

reds8n wrote:Perhaps you should try reading it again, perhaps that way your comments won't come across as quite so ridiculously hyperbolic and uniformed.

Within the space of a few thousand years, Pech's prime continent was home to five Kroot hives, and factory farming and mining were commonplace.

Gridge wrote:There is also the Soul Drinkers to consider. After all their chapter is based around using this ability.