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BluntmanDC wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No, nothing I've read has had that. If the Astartes don't stoop themselves to operate enemy equipment--why the hell would they soil themselves with their flesh

In "Courage and Honour" Ultramarines, when pressed, kill some Tau and eat their brains so they can quickly learn how to pilot some of their skimmers ( Piranhas or Tetras, I forget which).

Telion also uses the ability to help determine the location of an enemy base in the "Assault on Black Reach" novella as well.

Ian Watson's Imperial Fist book features them feasting and consuming all manner of odd creatures, fluff in those days even had the Astartes at some of those feasts deliberately feasting upon the otherwise inedible -- such as.."waste matter".. if you follow me -- as part of their devotions.

"Imperial Fist" is old. So I discount that, just like I do "Space Marine".

It doesn't matter what you think, the fluff hasn't been altered or changed so it is still canon, you can't pick and choose.

Actually, I can. Ian Watson's "Space Marine" has this stamping quite large on its page:


There's also this statement:

Black Library wrote:Believe us when we tell you that Space Marine is quite unlike any other Warhammer 40,000 novel you’ve ever read.

First published in 1993 – though completed some years earlier – at a time when the background to the Warhammer 40,000 universe was still in a state of flux and not yet fully coalesced, the book follows three young Imperial Fist recruits from their formative years in the underhive gangs of Necromunda through to fighting as part of the First Company within the bowels (literally!) of a Tyranid bioship.

Not only will you find squats in this novel –Tzeentch-worshiping squats at that – but also Space Marines controlling Titans, Space Marines with lasguns, the Pain Glove and more than a small amount of toilet humour. Oh, and a Zoat. How could we forget the Zoat?

Although the temptation was great to rewrite significant portions of this book to make it conform to current background, as a curiosity piece, an historical snapshot of the Warhammer 40,000 universe circa the early 1990s, this book is invaluable. It also serves as a shining example of what can happen when a respected genre author at the height of his powers is let loose on an established shared universe.

So yeah. "Imperial Fist" is no longer canon.

Kanluwen wrote:snip

Again its very interesting you know all this after saying

Kanluwen wrote:nothing I've read has had that

Grey Templar wrote:I have noticed the line that says they are gathering DNA.


Kroot coup anyone?


Kroot declare war on the T'au empire. millions of Bloodthirsty savages descend on the Sept worlds.

all T'au, with the exception of the Farsight enclaves, are eaten and the Kroot gain the ability to wield T'au tech to the fullest.


Codex: T'au Empire is split into Codex: Kroot and Codex: T'au colonies.

I don't think Tau biology has anything to do with the Tau's abilities to utilize weaponry, so I hate to say it... actually, not really I love to say it, this is highly unlikely. They can already use Tau weaponry just fine anyway.

T'au put a blind eye to it, thus accept it.

There is a major difference between turning a blind eye and accepting something. Turning a blind eye implies that it is NOT accepted, its just ignored. They pretend it doesn't happen, and try to keep it quiet so very few actually know about it. Accepting it means its out in the open (which it is not).

Enemies?
No, nothing I've read has had that. If the Astartes don't stoop themselves to operate enemy equipment--why the hell would they soil themselves with their flesh?

Likely Manchu was making a hamfisted Kroot comparison to the fact that some Chapters of the Astartes retain a genetic ability that they can eat brain tissue and 'learn' how to operate the equipment associated with it.

Supposedly the Scythes of the Emperor retained that ability and are why Lictors have it, actually.

Would you like me to point out whats wrong with these two quotes from you Kanluwen, or can you figure it out?

"Imperial Fist" is old. So I discount that, just like I do "Space Marine".

Everything published since 2nd Ed. is new. So I discount that, just like I do many of your arguments. See what I did there? You can't just pick and choose to accept what you like and throw away the rest. It doesn't work that way. Thats almost like someone going through the rulebook and picking and choosing which rules they want to use and which they don't. Yeah, you can do it, but its not going to be accepted by the general public.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:snip

Again its very interesting you know all this after saying

Kanluwen wrote:nothing I've read has had that

What?

I've not actually read "Imperial Fist".

But I have, however, read the freaking webpage.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Would you like me to point out whats wrong with these two quotes from you Kanluwen, or can you figure it out?

Would you like me to point out that we're talking about two very different contexts here?
If you're going to play the quoting game, please. Get some skill at it.

BluntmanDC wrote:Lots of fluff show that space marines eat enemies/predators as initiation/trial rites

Cannibalism is a taboo for a reason as eating humans leads to an increased chance on mental disorders, but i think that most humans are fine consuming living beings, what with the massive industry in livestock farming.

On the whole kroot are only cannibals in private, when on the battle field they eat aliens they have killed, this is called eating not cannibalism.

Kanluwen wrote:Enemies?
No, nothing I've read has had that. If the Astartes don't stoop themselves to operate enemy equipment--why the hell would they soil themselves with their flesh?

This was in reply to the first part of his statement. The "Lots of fluff show that space marines eat enemies as initiation/trial rites".
Which isn't true since the only example is "Imperial Fist", which is by GW's own standard...

Predators? Haven't seen anything on it, but so what? We eat predators now. There is no taboo there.

If you can't figure out what part of the above quote that was replying to, I weep for you.

Likely Manchu was making a hamfisted Kroot comparison to the fact that some Chapters of the Astartes retain a genetic ability that they can eat brain tissue and 'learn' how to operate the equipment associated with it.

Of which the only examples we have are:
1) "Imperial Fist", which is.... And in that case, they devoured the brain of a fallen Imperial Titan crewmember to operate the Titan. Nothing "enemy" about it
2) "Courage and Honour", which is a Graham McNeill book...which is about one step up from C.S. Goto fanwank when it comes to the "canon" value you can take from it.
3) Telion eating a brain to learn the location of a fortress. Which...actually has nothing to do with operating equipment, now does it?

chaos0xomega wrote:Everything published since 2nd Ed. is new. So I discount that, just like I do many of your arguments. See what I did there? You can't just pick and choose to accept what you like and throw away the rest. It doesn't work that way. Thats almost like someone going through the rulebook and picking and choosing which rules they want to use and which they don't. Yeah, you can do it, but its not going to be accepted by the general public.

Sorry, but no. It does work that way.

When a book is no longer published or is considered by the owning company:

Black Library wrote:Believe us when we tell you that Space Marine is quite unlike any other Warhammer 40,000 novel you’ve ever read.

First published in 1993 – though completed some years earlier – at a time when the background to the Warhammer 40,000 universe was still in a state of flux and not yet fully coalesced, the book follows three young Imperial Fist recruits from their formative years in the underhive gangs of Necromunda through to fighting as part of the First Company within the bowels (literally!) of a Tyranid bioship.

Not only will you find squats in this novel –Tzeentch-worshiping squats at that – but also Space Marines controlling Titans, Space Marines with lasguns, the Pain Glove and more than a small amount of toilet humour. Oh, and a Zoat. How could we forget the Zoat?

Although the temptation was great to rewrite significant portions of this book to make it conform to current background, as a curiosity piece, an historical snapshot of the Warhammer 40,000 universe circa the early 1990s, this book is invaluable. It also serves as a shining example of what can happen when a respected genre author at the height of his powers is let loose on an established shared universe.

I'm going to simplify this further for you.

Black Library wrote:as a curiosity piece, an historical snapshot of the Warhammer 40,000 universe circa the early 1990s, this book is invaluable.

So yeah.
"Imperial Fist"?
Not canon. Hasn't been since 2nd edition either.

The Kroot are definately more than they appear - if you think they appear as savages. They just don't have a centralized goverment and are clannish in nature. They simply have no interest in running an empire or anything like that.

Plus, the tribal savagery look is pretty scary to the enemy.

Mr Nobody wrote:Plus, the tribal savagery look is pretty scary to the enemy.

cool. What's that from?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Plus, the tribal savagery look is pretty scary to the enemy.

cool. What's that from?

I'd give odds on the guardsmen winning that...
And it looks like someone other than GW made it though i can't be sure...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Plus, the tribal savagery look is pretty scary to the enemy.

cool. What's that from?

I don't remember, I saved to my computer a while ago. Try googling it.

Kanluwen wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Predators? Haven't seen anything on it, but so what? We eat predators now. There is no taboo there.

If you can't figure out what part of the above quote that was replying to, I weep for you.

Kanluwen wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Everything published since 2nd Ed. is new. So I discount that, just like I do many of your arguments. See what I did there? You can't just pick and choose to accept what you like and throw away the rest. It doesn't work that way. Thats almost like someone going through the rulebook and picking and choosing which rules they want to use and which they don't. Yeah, you can do it, but its not going to be accepted by the general public.

Sorry, but no. It does work that way.

When a book is no longer published or is considered by the owning company:

Black Library wrote:Believe us when we tell you that Space Marine is quite unlike any other Warhammer 40,000 novel you’ve ever read.

First published in 1993 – though completed some years earlier – at a time when the background to the Warhammer 40,000 universe was still in a state of flux and not yet fully coalesced, the book follows three young Imperial Fist recruits from their formative years in the underhive gangs of Necromunda through to fighting as part of the First Company within the bowels (literally!) of a Tyranid bioship.

Not only will you find squats in this novel –Tzeentch-worshiping squats at that – but also Space Marines controlling Titans, Space Marines with lasguns, the Pain Glove and more than a small amount of toilet humour. Oh, and a Zoat. How could we forget the Zoat?

Although the temptation was great to rewrite significant portions of this book to make it conform to current background, as a curiosity piece, an historical snapshot of the Warhammer 40,000 universe circa the early 1990s, this book is invaluable. It also serves as a shining example of what can happen when a respected genre author at the height of his powers is let loose on an established shared universe.

I'm going to simplify this further for you.

Black Library wrote:as a curiosity piece, an historical snapshot of the Warhammer 40,000 universe circa the early 1990s, this book is invaluable.

So yeah.
"Imperial Fist"?
Not canon. Hasn't been since 2nd edition either.

Yeah, no it doesn't work that way. The pen is mightier than the sword, you can't unwrite what is already written. That would be like Marx telling people that Das Kapital was written when he was young and naive, and he really really likes capitalism now, and that everyone should ignore it and the Communist Parties all over the globe are following an outdated Manifesto, and that they should all buy Das Kapital Volume 5: The Search for More Money instead for updated ideals.

Or like Hitler telling everyone that Mein Kampf was written when he was in his dark emo-goth pseudo-teen phase and that he didn't mean what he wrote, and that he really does like the Jews and that German's aren't really a superior race, etc.

It was printed, and it entered the canon. GW can stick their fingers in their ears all they want and scream bloody murder all day long and pretend it never happened, but it did. Short of a retcon, there really is no way to undo that, as much as you/they would like to.

You mean other than flatout saying that it is not to be considered canon and "is to be considered a curiousity piece, a historical snapshot of the Warhammer 40,000 universe circa the early 1990s"?

Sorry. But it's not canon, and you're wrong to even suggest that it is.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Predators? Haven't seen anything on it, but so what? We eat predators now. There is no taboo there.

If you can't figure out what part of the above quote that was replying to, I weep for you.

You said 'so what?' and made a factually inaccurate statement, so i replied. 'i weep for you' please get a grip

I'm still waiting to see canonical evidence that Space Marines eat predators as "part of an initiation rite".

And you to realize that I wasn't bloody talking to you, but the git who tried to play the "Misquote out of Context!" game.

First, everyone make with the chillpills. This one is a pass, the next is suspension.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Second, GW considers "canon" something very permeable rather than hard "fact." That said, the Heretic Tomes label is the closest thing to saying "this is not canon" GW has ever done short of rewriting fluff. I would point out, however, that Inquisition War does not bear that mark and the protagonist from Space Marine definitely appears there. It could that the whole story was a dream in a crazy man's head. But that could also be said of Fifth Edition.

Kanluwen wrote:You mean other than flatout saying that it is not to be considered canon and "is to be considered a curiousity piece, a historical snapshot of the Warhammer 40,000 universe circa the early 1990s"?

Sorry. But it's not canon, and you're wrong to even suggest that it is.

Did you miss the entire purpose of my post? GW can say its not canon all they want. The fact is that it was originally written as cannon, and it entered the cannon. They can retcon it, but to flat out deny it as being cannon and pretend it never happened is not possible. If they wanted to do that, they should have done the intelligent thing and added a "What If:" in front of the title when they first printed it, like if it were a Marvel Comic.

Canon can be undone. The "facts" of a fictional world can be rewritten. Yes, GW cannot change the fact that they commissioned Ian Watson to write Space Marine and then published it. But GW can certainly say "we no longer consider the events recounted in this book to reflect the Warhammer 40,000 backstory" -- which is pretty much what they have said or as close to it as they have ever come.

Manchu wrote:
Second, GW considers "canon" something very permeable rather than hard "fact." That said, the Heretic Tomes label is the closest thing to saying "this is not canon" GW has ever done short of rewriting fluff. I would point out, however, that Inquisition War does not bear that mark and the protagonist from Space Marine definitely appears there. It could that the whole story was a dream in a crazy man's head. But that could also be said of Fifth Edition.

"Inquisition War" is also no longer being published.

So, there's that going on now.

I should also add that they did a "2009 edition" which, supposedly, had all the non-canon bits brought up to snuff.

I bought that edition. I don't think it's "in compliance" by a long shot. Plus, you yourself have noted that Inquisition War is never out of print for long. None of this really undermines your point about the "heretical tomes" stamp, however. Space Marine by Ian Watson is no longer a reliable source of background story for the Warhammer 40k world. That is pretty clear. It's something like this: Lexandro D'Arquebus is certainly an Imperial Fist Space Marine of some note but the stories one may have heard about him are a trifle exaggerated.

Manchu wrote:I bought that edition. I don't think it's "in compliance" by a long shot. Plus, you yourself have noted that Inquisition War is never out of print for long. None of this really undermines your point about the "heretical tomes" stamp, however. Space Marine by Ian Watson is no longer a reliable source of background story for the Warhammer 40k world. That is pretty clear. It's something like this: Lexandro D'Arquebus is certainly an Imperial Fist Space Marine of some note but the stories one may have heard about him are a trifle exaggerated.

I'm not sure about it "being out of print for long", frankly.

I think they just haven't gotten around to updating it with a "Heretic's Tome" stamp--or just aren't gonna bother since they have no plans to republish it.

Kanluwen wrote:2) "Courage and Honour", which is a Graham McNeill book...which is about one step up from C.S. Goto fanwank when it comes to the "canon" value you can take from it.

hmm... I can't agree here. He's written some of the foundation "stones" of the current 40K setting, so much so that parts of his work are included in the codices themselves.

The fact that he is capable of remembering to actually use the full range of the Astartes abilties means he should be lauded rather than mocked just because it doesn't fit into your, very specific and far too narrow, view of what the setting is.

Now, I agree that canon can, is and even should be rewritten where appropriate. I think the Ultramarines work much better now than in their first incarnation and background. But there's no harm at all in bringing back, even if only in a tip of the hat type way, older fluff, where appropriate.

This ability of the marines is canon, has been and doesn't appear to be going anywhere soon. It's a well established part of the Deathwatch game for example, and it also, for example, entirely relevant to chapters who are still canon -- like the Blood Drinkers http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Drinkers

BluntmanDC wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No, nothing I've read has had that. If the Astartes don't stoop themselves to operate enemy equipment--why the hell would they soil themselves with their flesh

In "Courage and Honour" Ultramarines, when pressed, kill some Tau and eat their brains so they can quickly learn how to pilot some of their skimmers ( Piranhas or Tetras, I forget which).

Telion also uses the ability to help determine the location of an enemy base in the "Assault on Black Reach" novella as well.

Ian Watson's Imperial Fist book features them feasting and consuming all manner of odd creatures, fluff in those days even had the Astartes at some of those feasts deliberately feasting upon the otherwise inedible -- such as.."waste matter".. if you follow me -- as part of their devotions.

"Imperial Fist" is old. So I discount that, just like I do "Space Marine".

It doesn't matter what you think, the fluff hasn't been altered or changed so it is still cannon, you can't pick and choose.

Well, you can, that's why we keep getting into these sorts of arguments.

GW themselves have said the "canon" fluff should be regarded as a mixture of truth, lies, misunderstandings, propaganda, history, legend and myth.

I am more surprised that SMs would fit into a Tau Tetra than that they would kill prisoners and eat their brains in order to learn how to fly them.

But perhaps SMs are not nine feet tall. Perhaps they are actually only six feet tall and could squeeze in okay.

I find this mutability of the "canon fluff" the most enjoyable aspect of it.

reds8n wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:2) "Courage and Honour", which is a Graham McNeill book...which is about one step up from C.S. Goto fanwank when it comes to the "canon" value you can take from it.

hmm... I can't agree here. He's written some of the foundation "stones" of the current 40K setting, so much so that parts of his work are included in the codices themselves.

No doubt he has, but he is very hit or miss with the content of his works and a lot of his earlier books are what I take issue with.
If he'd go back and rework them with the writing skill and canonical knowledge he has now?

I'd be a lot happier and find it easier to regard it as canon.

The fact that he is capable of remembering to actually use the full range of the Astartes abilties means he should be lauded rather than mocked just because it doesn't fit into your, very specific and far too narrow, view of what the setting is.

Again: him using it isn't the issue. I have no problems with the usage of this specific ability.
The issue was that he didn't seem to know what the hell he was doing with it when he actually used it.

Now, I agree that canon can, is and even should be rewritten where appropriate. I think the Ultramarines work much better now than in their first incarnation and background. But there's no harm at all in bringing back, even if only in a tip of the hat type way, older fluff, where appropriate.

Provided they make it clear that it's a tip of the hat, with no wiggle room for people to somehow interpret that tip of the hat being some kind of hint at the return/introduction of something.

This ability of the marines is canon, has been and doesn't appear to be going anywhere soon. It's a well established part of the Deathwatch game for example, and it also, for example, entirely relevant to chapters who are still canon -- like the Blood Drinkers http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Drinkers

Again:
no issues with the usage of it. I know it's there, and it's very rarely used except as a deus ex machina.

Kanluwen wrote:If he'd go back and rework them with the writing skill and canonical knowledge he has now?

..then presumably you'd get something like "Courage and Honour"..

reds8n wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:If he'd go back and rework them with the writing skill and canonical knowledge he has now?

..then presumably you'd get something like "Courage and Honour"..

Except without the Tetras and Piranha driving Marines, you mean

I'm not sure if this has been cover yet (these posts are rather chaotic to skim through), but the recent Deathwatch book covers the space marine eating things issue. Let me go fetch the book real quick....The Omophagae allows the space marine to learn by eating. They can absorb memories, which quote can be very useful in an alien environment.

As for the actual topic, I don't think the kroot are really up to anything big. Though I can definitely see something happening between the kroot and tau if their mercenaries are discovered.

ZeFelix42 wrote:I'm not sure if this has been cover yet (these posts are rather chaotic to skim through), but the recent Deathwatch book covers the space marine eating things issue. Let me go fetch the book real quick....The Omophagae allows the space marine to learn by eating. They can absorb memories, which quote can be very useful in an alien environment.

As for the actual topic, I don't think the kroot are really up to anything big. Though I can definitely see something happening between the kroot and tau if their mercenaries are discovered.

Yeah, they'll get in a big fight one night then they'll get a divorce. Now the vespid live with the Tau, but they get to see the Kroot every other weekend.

Mr Nobody wrote:

ZeFelix42 wrote:I'm not sure if this has been cover yet (these posts are rather chaotic to skim through), but the recent Deathwatch book covers the space marine eating things issue. Let me go fetch the book real quick....The Omophagae allows the space marine to learn by eating. They can absorb memories, which quote can be very useful in an alien environment.

As for the actual topic, I don't think the kroot are really up to anything big. Though I can definitely see something happening between the kroot and tau if their mercenaries are discovered.

Yeah, they'll get in a big fight one night then they'll get a divorce. Now the vespid live with the Tau, but they get to see the Kroot every other weekend.

So much hate for you right now.

Reading should not make coffee go through my nose! It is not cool!

Kan - Courage and honour is quite a recent book....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kan - Courage and honour is quite a recent book....

Then he needs to go and look at what a Tetra or Piranha looks like.

Or hell, any Tau vehicle. There's no feasible way for Marines to operate them without ditching their power armour.

I thought most of them were scouts? Obviously not Learchus.

Perhaps he was doing a hand stand while controlling them? Or they were special "big bird" variations?

Even Scouts are larger than standard humans/Tau would be.