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daedalus-templarius wrote:Well, as soon as they fire all the teachers and cut all of their salaries to nothing, we will barely have any teachers left and we will take another important step towards idiocracy. Art/music/theatre classes are all already pretty much cut, but who needs that crap?

Who needs teachers, everything you need to learn is in the bible, right? :sarcasm:

Actually they are only looking at layoffs if the change isn't meant, hence the is the viagra more important than jobs issue. So if teachers get fired, blame your local union.

Frazzled wrote:

Actually they are only looking at layoffs if the change isn't meant, hence the is the viagra more important than jobs issue. So if teachers get fired, blame your local union.

Not necessarily just talking about WI. Teachers are getting laid off everywhere to make up for budget shortfalls. And, like I said, Art/Music/Theatre are already cut in several school districts because of budgetary concerns.

Chicago is closing schools and consolidating students, classes are approaching 50+ students. Hell, why don't we just toss them into an auditorium like in college, they will be sure to give a crap about their education then.

What happens after the teacher bashing has gotten so bad we have no more teachers? Its astonishing to me they put up with it now, I've seen teachers buy all of their supplies for their own students with no help from their school. How long will they be able to do that?

Also, I seem to remember the whole thrust/spin on putting republicans back into power in governors seats and the house was "bring back the jobs/save jobs". That doesn't really seem to be the case if they fire a whole mess of teachers... but maybe that's just me. (not just WI)

Frazzled, in your own state, the legislature is planning to cut $4.8 billion state school aid to close its budget. Estimated 100,000 school employee layoffs inc in TX. You'd think with all the businesses supposedly flocking to Texas, he could close a few business tax loopholes which I'm sure are being exploited... or maybe hit some of those oil subsidies. But no, education is going to get slashed, because who needs education?

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Actually they are only looking at layoffs if the change isn't meant, hence the is the viagra more important than jobs issue. So if teachers get fired, blame your local union.

Not necessarily just talking about WI. Teachers are getting laid off everywhere to make up for budget shortfalls. And, like I said, Art/Music/Theatre are already cut in several school districts because of budgetary concerns.

Chicago is closing schools and consolidating students, classes are approaching 50+ students. Hell, why don't we just toss them into an auditorium like in college, they will be sure to give a crap about their education then.

What happens after the teacher bashing has gotten so bad we have no more teachers? Its astonishing to me they put up with it now, I've seen teachers buy all of their supplies for their own students with no help from their school. How long will they be able to do that?

Also, I seem to remember the whole thrust/spin on putting republicans back into power in governors seats and the house was "bring back the jobs/save jobs". That doesn't really seem to be the case if they fire a whole mess of teachers... but maybe that's just me. (not just WI)

Frazzled, in your own state, the legislature is planning to cut $4.8 billion state school aid to close its budget. Estimated 100,000 school employee layoffs inc in TX. You'd think with all the businesses supposedly flocking to Texas, he could close a few business tax loopholes which I'm sure are being exploited... or maybe hit some of those oil subsidies. But no, education is going to get slashed, because who needs education?

Life sucks. budgets are destoryed. Time to cut back just like everyone else. Govenrment employees welcome to reality. Oops there goes gravity.

Frazzled wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Actually they are only looking at layoffs if the change isn't meant, hence the is the viagra more important than jobs issue. So if teachers get fired, blame your local union.

Not necessarily just talking about WI. Teachers are getting laid off everywhere to make up for budget shortfalls. And, like I said, Art/Music/Theatre are already cut in several school districts because of budgetary concerns.

Chicago is closing schools and consolidating students, classes are approaching 50+ students. Hell, why don't we just toss them into an auditorium like in college, they will be sure to give a crap about their education then.

What happens after the teacher bashing has gotten so bad we have no more teachers? Its astonishing to me they put up with it now, I've seen teachers buy all of their supplies for their own students with no help from their school. How long will they be able to do that?

Also, I seem to remember the whole thrust/spin on putting republicans back into power in governors seats and the house was "bring back the jobs/save jobs". That doesn't really seem to be the case if they fire a whole mess of teachers... but maybe that's just me. (not just WI)

Frazzled, in your own state, the legislature is planning to cut $4.8 billion state school aid to close its budget. Estimated 100,000 school employee layoffs inc in TX. You'd think with all the businesses supposedly flocking to Texas, he could close a few business tax loopholes which I'm sure are being exploited... or maybe hit some of those oil subsidies. But no, education is going to get slashed, because who needs education?

Life sucks. budgets are destoryed. Time to cut back just like everyone else. Govenrment employees welcome to reality. Oops there goes gravity.

This is what happens when the kids listen to the rap musics....

Frazzled wrote:

Life sucks. budgets are destoryed. Time to cut back just like everyone else. Govenrment employees welcome to reality. Oops there goes gravity.

Hmmm. I hope you aren't my neighbor when I move to Austin.
Kind of a sad response really, have to admit.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Life sucks. budgets are destoryed. Time to cut back just like everyone else. Govenrment employees welcome to reality. Oops there goes gravity.

Hmmm. I hope you aren't my neighbor when I move to Austin.
Kind of a sad response really, have to admit.

Its a great response. I live in the real world, not the protected sanctum of government largesse.
You'd love me as a neighbor. Watching the ocean of weiner dogs traveling along the street on their evening walk is epic. Don't pick up the lead dog though, he'll bite you in the face!

Yes by laying off teachers, and firing police and fire fighters. You create more jobs. If unemployment and food stamps are jobs. As soon as they are fired everybody who lost jobs will have them back, including the teachers and fire fighters. Also the "jobs-killing health care bill" is eating all the jobs, even if it's not in effect. So if you stop that, the jobs won't be afraid of being killed and come out of hiding.

sexiest_hero wrote: So if you stop that, the jobs won't be afraid of being killed and come out of hiding.

I chuckled, a sad depressing chuckle but a chuckle none the less

Frazzled wrote:
Its a great response. I live in the real world, not the protected sanctum of government largesse.

Well, hopefully they won't cut the police/fire dept in your area, so when your house is burning/broken into(by all of those people on the streets without educations so they can't get a job of any sort because they never went to school), and they can't spare the manpower to put the fire out/stop the looters taking all your gak, you can still retain the same attitude.

On a completely serious note, what problems doesn't universal genocide solve?

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Its a great response. I live in the real world, not the protected sanctum of government largesse.

Well, hopefully they won't cut the police/fire dept in your area, so when your house is burning/broken into(by all of those people on the streets without educations so they can't get a job of any sort because they never went to school), and they can't spare the manpower to put the fire out/stop the looters taking all your gak, you can still retain the same attitude.

So we never had government employees before unions? You might, er check into that a little bit...

You don't by chance work for the DMV do you?


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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:On a completely serious note, what problems doesn't universal genocide solve?

Area underpopulation.

Frazzled wrote:
So we never had government employees before unions? You might, er check into that a little bit...

You don't by chance work for the DMV do you?

Sigh, I wasn't really talking just about unions. More about your seeming stance on public employees in general and the current climate of layoffs due to budgetary concerns for what I assumed were essential services like firemen and police. Just look at NY.

And no, I don't.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
So we never had government employees before unions? You might, er check into that a little bit...

You don't by chance work for the DMV do you?

Sigh, I wasn't really talking just about unions. More about your seeming stance on public employees in general and the current climate of layoffs due to budgetary concerns for what I assumed were essential services like firemen and police. Just look at NY.

And no, I don't.

Firemen good
Cops good.
Good teachers good.
All other considerations restricted.

Well unfortunately, the cuts to teachers don't care if they are good or not, or if they are in a union or not, in the majority of cases.

And as it stands, cops and firemen are also being laid off, and probably targeted for more layoffs as budgeting continues. Public service seems to be far more targeted by the people in power than any sort of business loopholes and subsidies, which is very sad, because we are supposed to be bringing back jobs, not destroying more.

Anecdotal story: in Missouri they closed several schools to consolidate due to budgetary concerns. This was slightly mitigated by the fact that the schools that were going to stay open were going to get an influx of resources (computers, etc) from the schools that were closing to help with the glut of new students.

After a few months, the schools that stayed open still hadn't received the resources from the schools that had closed. Because the old schools were not properly secured/it took them forever to get the stuff out, they were stripped bare by looters. Wiring, computers, copper, all gone. Now, the old schools are a disaster, not even usable anymore, because of the ineptitude of the local school board.

So they closed a bunch of schools that are now stripped bare, fired a bunch of teachers, moved a bunch of students, and all they have to show for it is a bunch of laid off teachers.

Well all that story was good for was showing the idiocy of local government in several areas, didn't really prove anything other than give me a big downer.

feth. Back to gaming/art forums.

Your irrational hatred of government employees aside, Frazzled, government employees perform necessary jobs without which our country would pretty much cease to work as a coherent country.

Melissia wrote:Your irrational hatred of government employees aside, Frazzled, government employees perform necessary jobs without which our country would pretty much cease to work as a coherent country.

I am sure there are a few. Lets have a test. Fire 2/3 of the back office people in every department (admin for you guys focused on teacher unions). Tell them if performance falls off they'll be replaced by new employees. Lets see what happens.

biccat wrote:
That's because there's no incentive for politicians to negotiate strongly with unions. Taxpayers until recently didn't care about spending or deficits, and as we are seeing now, unions can raise massive opposition to spending reforms.

That's what I meant when I said "...due to the absence of political support for such actions."

Anyway, if there is no incentive for politicians to negotiate with unions, then why is there apparently a significant incentive for them to attempt to do away with them?

One would think that if there is sufficient support for the elimination of public sector organization that there would be significant incentive to aggressively negotiate with those organizations.

biccat wrote:
Plus, a substantial portion of the electorate has no problem taxing those Richers to get theirs. And the Richers don't get a say, since they're greedy and all.

Of course they get a say, they can vote, and contribute to campaigns; the latter being a much stronger "voice" than the former.

The issue isn't nominally about greed, so much as the popular theory behind progressive taxation and ability to pay.


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Frazzled wrote:
Life sucks. budgets are destoryed. Time to cut back just like everyone else. Govenrment employees welcome to reality. Oops there goes gravity.

Or raise taxes. Many states and municipalities have gotten away with artificially low tax rates for decades now.

dogma wrote:

biccat wrote:
Plus, a substantial portion of the electorate has no problem taxing those Richers to get theirs. And the Richers don't get a say, since they're greedy and all.

Of course they get a say, they can vote, and contribute to campaigns; the latter being a much stronger "voice" than the former.

The issue isn't nominally about greed, so much as the popular theory behind progressive taxation and ability to pay.

The idea that the masses will simply tax the crud out of the easily-exploited Rich seems in stark contrast to the reality of taxation for the last 30+ years.

America was best off decades ago- in the late 40s, the 50s and 60s we were growing, the middle class was expanding, people were getting educations and houses and jobs with living wages at rates unprededented. We also had much higher percentages of Union membership than we do nowadays, and a MASSIVELY higher tax rate for the richest people than we do now. These fact are not contradictory.

For the past 30+ years the richest people have consistently had their tax rates slashed, in the theory (which George Bush Sr. memorably called "Voodoo economics" when he was running against Reagan, then lied and claimed never to have said when he was working for Reagan) that they would invest their money in ways which would create jobs and greater tax revenue. It's proven false. It's a period which has seen greater and greater outsourcing to other countries, the income disparity between the poor and middle class shrink, and the income disparity between both of those and the richest vastly inflate.

It's bad policy for the country. It's wrecked us economically. It's given the money away for empty promises and false theories. And while the Unions certainly are flawed too, they're not the real problem. They're a scapegoat and an obstacle for the richest to continue writing public policy to best advantage themselves and continue increasing their own wealth at the expense of everyone else. And the expense of the health and prosperity of our nation.

Right... the idea of trickle down economics has long since been proven to not work.

Frazzled wrote:

dogma wrote:The idea that state employees do nothing to improve economic performance is utter nonsense.

They provide nothing. At the state level budgets must be balanced there, every dollar they get is a dollar stolen from someone else, who on average makes less and receives worse benefits. Most government entities literally produce nothing but paper work and red tape. they don't make one shoe. They don't heal one sick person.

What do you manufacture at your job? What material thing do you contribute to the benefit of society?

Taxation isn't stealing. It makes you look dumb when you say things like that, which makes me wonder why you do, since you're not dumb.

Yes, the average worker makes less and gets less benefits than Union workers do. That's because Union workers have collective bargaining. We also have weekends because of collective bargaining. We have the ideas of an 8 hour workday and Overtime because of collective bargaining. Most of the things that allow us to work while still being able to enjoy our lives and spend time with our families are PRODUCTS of the labor movement. And as the Unions have been dying and their powers being curtailed over the past few decades, we have fewer protections, the average worker makes less money, and the average CEO makes more and more. Why did GM close plants and slash jobs while making record profits in the 80s? Because they could get away with it. The government supported it, at the expense of the Unions and of the workers.

Frazzled wrote:Now I'll grant you teachers educate, firemen stop fires. The good ones should be paid for their good work, and the poor ones fired. That doesn't happen. further, their beneifits are severaly out of whack with the rest of the workforce. Why do I have to subsidize mouth breathers working in local version of the DMV?

Most of the jobs in government are providing necessary services, as you well know. Firemen and teachers. Workers to service those roads and highways you use to get to work at your private company. DMV people to make sure drivers are licensed and registered (which is about public safety as well as revenue). Health department workers to make sure restaurants aren't poisoning people, and to track down and reduce the rate of diseases spreading. Some people to shuffling paper is a necessary consequence of any "real" work. More of your job, i expect, involves paper than it does manufacturing material goods, no? Or maybe you're a doctor and you heal the sick, like Waaagh Gonads?

Unions protecting incompetent workers and paying people purely based on seniority is BS. Sure. Agreed. But those are things that can be fixed. I am also well aware that they often get better and cheaper healthcare than private sector employees, and lack the perspective to realize how good they have it in that department. That's yet another argument for comprehensive overhaul of our healthcare system.

And as Cannerus' immediate example demonstrates, a lot of the protections and policies they're responsible for create better jobs and better workers too.

Frazzled wrote:
They provide nothing. At the state level budgets must be balanced there, every dollar they get is a dollar stolen from someone else, who on average makes less and receives worse benefits. Most government entities literally produce nothing but paper work and red tape. they don't make one shoe. They don't heal one sick person.

The idea of a lawyer accusing other people of being parasites is too amusing not to comment on.

Mannahnin wrote:

dogma wrote:

biccat wrote:
Plus, a substantial portion of the electorate has no problem taxing those Richers to get theirs. And the Richers don't get a say, since they're greedy and all.

Of course they get a say, they can vote, and contribute to campaigns; the latter being a much stronger "voice" than the former.

The issue isn't nominally about greed, so much as the popular theory behind progressive taxation and ability to pay.

The idea that the masses will simply tax the crud out of the easily-exploited Rich seems in stark contrast to the reality of taxation for the last 30+ years.

America was best off decades ago- in the late 40s, the 50s and 60s we were growing, the middle class was expanding, people were getting educations and houses and jobs with living wages at rates unprededented. We also had much higher percentages of Union membership than we do nowadays, and a MASSIVELY higher tax rate for the richest people than we do now. These fact are not contradictory.

For the past 30+ years the richest people have consistently had their tax rates slashed, in the theory (which George Bush Sr. memorably called "Voodoo economics" when he was running against Reagan, then lied and claimed never to have said when he was working for Reagan) that they would invest their money in ways which would create jobs and greater tax revenue. It's proven false. It's a period which has seen greater and greater outsourcing to other countries, the income disparity between the poor and middle class shrink, and the income disparity between both of those and the richest vastly inflate.

It's bad policy for the country. It's wrecked us economically. It's given the money away for empty promises and false theories. And while the Unions certainly are flawed too, they're not the real problem. They're a scapegoat and an obstacle for the richest to continue writing public policy to best advantage themselves and continue increasing their own wealth at the expense of everyone else. And the expense of the health and prosperity of our nation.

Mannahnin wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

dogma wrote:The idea that state employees do nothing to improve economic performance is utter nonsense.

They provide nothing. At the state level budgets must be balanced there, every dollar they get is a dollar stolen from someone else, who on average makes less and receives worse benefits. Most government entities literally produce nothing but paper work and red tape. they don't make one shoe. They don't heal one sick person.

What do you manufacture at your job? What material thing do you contribute to the benefit of society?

Taxation isn't stealing. It makes you look dumb when you say things like that, which makes me wonder why you do, since you're not dumb.

Yes, the average worker makes less and gets less benefits than Union workers do. That's because Union workers have collective bargaining. We also have weekends because of collective bargaining. We have the ideas of an 8 hour workday and Overtime because of collective bargaining. Most of the things that allow us to work while still being able to enjoy our lives and spend time with our families are PRODUCTS of the labor movement. And as the Unions have been dying and their powers being curtailed over the past few decades, we have fewer protections, the average worker makes less money, and the average CEO makes more and more. Why did GM close plants and slash jobs while making record profits in the 80s? Because they could get away with it. The government supported it, at the expense of the Unions and of the workers.

Frazzled wrote:Now I'll grant you teachers educate, firemen stop fires. The good ones should be paid for their good work, and the poor ones fired. That doesn't happen. further, their beneifits are severaly out of whack with the rest of the workforce. Why do I have to subsidize mouth breathers working in local version of the DMV?

Most of the jobs in government are providing necessary services, as you well know. Firemen and teachers. Workers to service those roads and highways you use to get to work at your private company. DMV people to make sure drivers are licensed and registered (which is about public safety as well as revenue). Health department workers to make sure restaurants aren't poisoning people, and to track down and reduce the rate of diseases spreading. Some people to shuffling paper is a necessary consequence of any "real" work. More of your job, i expect, involves paper than it does manufacturing material goods, no? Or maybe you're a doctor and you heal the sick, like Waaagh Gonads?

Unions protecting incompetent workers and paying people purely based on seniority is BS. Sure. Agreed. But those are things that can be fixed. I am also well aware that they often get better and cheaper healthcare than private sector employees, and lack the perspective to realize how good they have it in that department. That's yet another argument for comprehensive overhaul of our healthcare system.

And as Cannerus' immediate example demonstrates, a lot of the protections and policies they're responsible for create better jobs and better workers too.

I know you can't see me Mannahnin (i think! ), but i'm giving you a standing O my friend! very well said, everything you said!

And Frazzled, are you the voice of El Rushbo on Dakka? i feel you and he would get along smashingly!

I don't think Fraz is crazy or stupid like Rush.

I do think Fraz gets a lot of media and familiar or friend-based political unput from people who listen to Rush and similar donkey-caves too much. I am dead sure that Fraz gets emails forwarded from jokers like that.

I am morally certain that Fraz is actually a good person, and now that I am enjoying a scrumptious plate of my homemade super Italian meat sauce over penne, with a decent glass of red wine, I rather wish we were sitting at the same table and could share a drink and come to some agreement.

Sooooooo....

I thought this was about how Gov. Walker admitted that "we thought about that" when asked about planting troublemakers in the demonstrators in order to get them arrested or discredited.

Admittedly, it was a prank phone call, but last I checked, his spokesman has confirmed the authenticity of the call, and says that “The phone call shows that the Governor says the same thing in private as he does in public and the lengths that others will go to disrupt the civil debate Wisconsin is having.” His spokesman doesn't deny that the governor says that he and others thought about planting troublemakers. This would seem to indicate that the "others" who would disrupt the debate would include the governor himself.

Of course, I work at a bookstore. I think about punching idiots in the face. I think about stomping on kids laying spread out on the floor. I think about smacking smelly, dirty, freeloaders with a large book. I think about a lot of stuff I would never do.

On the other hand, if I was taped saying any of those things, I would also explain how I think about things that I would never do, not allow my spokesperson to that I say the same thing in private as I do in public. Which, in this case would indicate that the governor evidently talks, in public, about planting troublemakers in demonstrations, or that his own spokesman is lying about the governor.

So, is the governor's spokesman spreading lies about the governor (namely, a lie that he talks, in public, about planting troublemakers in demonstrations), or does the governor, in fact, speak in public about planting troublemakers in demonstrations?

Or, is he like every other **** politician and simply doesn't assign ANY truth value to the words spewing out of his face?

Or, is his spokesperson an incompetent dimwit (and if so, is HE protected from firing due to being a member of a government union)?

Da Butcha wrote: Or, is he like every other **** politician and simply doesn't assign ANY truth value to the words spewing out of his face?

This.

I'm not really gonna get into all of this, but I live in California and we are pretty much sucked dry. Many reasons obviously, Unions are only a slice of the pie.
I will say that most of these failed states, CA included, should be consulting states like Texas, that you know... actually have a surplus! Half the people in CA don't even know what a surplus is.

Back on topic though, about the prank call. Frankly, who cares. Joe Biden pranks himself all the time.

Frazzled wrote:

sebster wrote:Having direct links between your politicies and the Koch brothers should be utterly damning.

Only in the wingnut side of the political spectrum. AS this drags on the unions are losing massive support. People want their kids taught properly and this is shifting to an issue towards that.

The Koch's are from the wingnut side of the political spectrum. Having money doesn't mean your political views aren't crazy and dangerous.

But this can be explained again and again, and the links between politicians and guys like the Koch brothers can be pointed out over and over again, and folk like you will ignore and sound off about unions instead.


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Melissia wrote:

sebster wrote:Which is an easy thing to miss, it's taken me a long time to realise how committed people are to half baked ideology over their own direct interests.

I thought that's been the basis of the entire Republican party for a while now.

Sure has. Thing is, people thought showing the moneyed interests bankrolling all these policies would lead to people realise they were getting screwed by the Republicans. But it hasn't, they just ignore that very rich people are controlling policies to make sure they get even richer, and that their wealth grants them even greater freedoms at the expense of the rest of us.

Because, like, freedom or something.


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ChrisWWII wrote:I am all in favor of getting rid of teacher's unions (though I do think Wisconsin's governor is going a bit too far with his zeal to fight the unions). While there are some good teachers, a system based on seniority as opposed to merit is just a failure. Teachers like your wife who work hard, and try to do their jobs should be rewarded with higher pay, more prestigous positions, more control over their course etc. while those who are just lazing around at the top, happy with their tenure should be kicked off to make room for decent teachers.

You can reform unions without destroying them. Hell, you can give them the choice 'reform towards merit based promotion or we'll destroy you' and you'd have the moral high ground, and never need to deny someone the right to collective bargaining.

Making the educational system competive again, and rewarding continued success with students (not just time spent in office), is the way to improving the educational system.

Empowering teachers to make the choices for students under their tutelage is the absolute best way to improve scores. Everything else is just adding more tests, and encouraging teachers to teach to the test, instead of developing the ability of children to learn.


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biccat wrote:The problem with government unions is that the power dynamics are imbalanced. In a standard business, the capitalists want to pay as little as possible to protect their wealth while the workers want to make as much money as possible for their labor. If they are unable to agree, unions supposedly provide an avenue to tip the scales on behalf of the laborer, such as threatening to shut down the business if the capitalist doesn't agree. The capitalist then decides if it is worth losing his business over. Sometimes it is.

In a government, the workers aren't going against a capitalist, but against an agency that receives their money by forcefully taking it from the populace. There is no relationship between services rendered and wealth generated by those services. Therefore, when the union demands more benefits/wages, the government can merely raise 'prices' without fear of being driven out of the market by the non-unionized state next door (unlike capitalist businesses).

So the union strikes, the state caves, union gets more money, the politician gets more votes, and everyone is happy. The only people who get screwed are the taxpayers, and what are they going to do, move?

So the governor's desire to keep education costs withing check, and the threat of being voted out of office he can't do that, or is forced to raise taxes doesn't exist. The problem with your analogy is that it assumes the governor's job is more secure than the CEO of McDonald's.

The problem here is that you're taking very basic economics, the talk from some pundits, then making things up. This is not a good way to form an opinion.


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Frazzled wrote:Life sucks. budgets are destoryed. Time to cut back just like everyone else. Govenrment employees welcome to reality. Oops there goes gravity.

People talk about the need to maintain education standards for kids, but Fraz revels in the idea of teachers being brought back to reality by getting fired.

This is the politics of spite. It's a destructive and pointless, but it dominates much Republican ideology, and in turn, much of their policy.

Hence instead of moves to reform education and union in Wisconsin, we have the move to ban unions. There's no possiblity of improving how things are done to save money and improve education, no... instead the only option to improve the lot of taxpayers is to take from someone else.

It's the politics of spite.


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Frazzled wrote:I am sure there are a few. Lets have a test. Fire 2/3 of the back office people in every department (admin for you guys focused on teacher unions). Tell them if performance falls off they'll be replaced by new employees. Lets see what happens.

Please state the studies you've read that government productivity is lower than private sector productivity, or has greater admin. Otherwise it just sounds like you're making things up.


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Lt. Coldfire wrote:I'm not really gonna get into all of this, but I live in California and we are pretty much sucked dry. Many reasons obviously, Unions are only a slice of the pie.
I will say that most of these failed states, CA included, should be consulting states like Texas, that you know... actually have a surplus! Half the people in CA don't even know what a surplus is.

Umm, Texas has a budget shortfall of $27 billion. And California's primary problem is the utterly stupid voter initiatives, which can cap spending and mandate spending on certain items.

Mannahnin wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

dogma wrote:The idea that state employees do nothing to improve economic performance is utter nonsense.

They provide nothing. At the state level budgets must be balanced there, every dollar they get is a dollar stolen from someone else, who on average makes less and receives worse benefits. Most government entities literally produce nothing but paper work and red tape. they don't make one shoe. They don't heal one sick person.

What do you manufacture at your job? What material thing do you contribute to the benefit of society?

Taxation isn't stealing. It makes you look dumb when you say things like that, which makes me wonder why you do, since you're not dumb.

Yes, the average worker makes less and gets less benefits than Union workers do. That's because Union workers have collective bargaining. We also have weekends because of collective bargaining. We have the ideas of an 8 hour workday and Overtime because of collective bargaining. Most of the things that allow us to work while still being able to enjoy our lives and spend time with our families are PRODUCTS of the labor movement. And as the Unions have been dying and their powers being curtailed over the past few decades, we have fewer protections, the average worker makes less money, and the average CEO makes more and more. Why did GM close plants and slash jobs while making record profits in the 80s? Because they could get away with it. The government supported it, at the expense of the Unions and of the workers.

Frazzled wrote:Now I'll grant you teachers educate, firemen stop fires. The good ones should be paid for their good work, and the poor ones fired. That doesn't happen. further, their beneifits are severaly out of whack with the rest of the workforce. Why do I have to subsidize mouth breathers working in local version of the DMV?

Most of the jobs in government are providing necessary services, as you well know. Firemen and teachers. Workers to service those roads and highways you use to get to work at your private company. DMV people to make sure drivers are licensed and registered (which is about public safety as well as revenue). Health department workers to make sure restaurants aren't poisoning people, and to track down and reduce the rate of diseases spreading. Some people to shuffling paper is a necessary consequence of any "real" work. More of your job, i expect, involves paper than it does manufacturing material goods, no? Or maybe you're a doctor and you heal the sick, like Waaagh Gonads?

Unions protecting incompetent workers and paying people purely based on seniority is BS. Sure. Agreed. But those are things that can be fixed. I am also well aware that they often get better and cheaper healthcare than private sector employees, and lack the perspective to realize how good they have it in that department. That's yet another argument for comprehensive overhaul of our healthcare system.

And as Cannerus' immediate example demonstrates, a lot of the protections and policies they're responsible for create better jobs and better workers too.

Yea its theft. The concept of increasing taxes so that the middle class can pay for people who are overpaid to begin with is frankly insulting to all those who are robbed to support the government workers.

Show me a government office and I'll show you one where half can be fired today with no loss in productivity.



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Mannahnin wrote:I don't think Fraz is crazy or stupid like Rush.

I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh. I work for a living.

I do think Fraz gets a lot of media and familiar or friend-based political unput from people who listen to Rush and similar donkey-caves too much. I am dead sure that Fraz gets emails forwarded from jokers like that.

You mean like the BBC? I'm listening to NPR right now. In a minute I'll be reading the Wall Street Journal.
No one forwards me emails of a political nature. I barely read my mail why on earth would I get ranting from other losers.
On the positive I have been called a communist Obama sympathizer on other boards.

I am morally certain that Fraz is actually a good person

Now I am sad. How can Frazzled be Weiner Dog Command and still be a good person? Cry Havoc! and let slip the weinies of war!
(note: When banished upstairs during girl scouts yesterday, we confirmed TBone was not impressed with Predator 2, much preferring some ball throwing, a quick attack on the Shanker, and some serious sun time.)

, and now that I am enjoying a scrumptious plate of my homemade super Italian meat sauce over penne, with a decent glass of red wine, I rather wish we were sitting at the same table and could share a drink and come to some agreement.

Mmmm cabernet...

Frazzled wrote:
Yea its theft. The concept of increasing taxes so that the middle class can pay for people who are overpaid to begin with is frankly insulting to all those who are robbed to support the government workers.

No, its not theft. Theft involves taking something and providing nothing in return. Even if you believe that the majority of government workers are unnecessary they still provide services in return for the money taken through taxation to pay them. You're equivocating.

Frazzled wrote:
I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh. I work for a living.

Those aren't mutually exclusive ideas. Lots of people listen to political commentators while working, just as many people listen to music while working. I mean, its not like Rush's political views are so subtle and nuanced as to require one's total attention.

Frazzled wrote:
On the positive I have been called a communist Obama sympathizer on other boards.

And I've been called a jack-booted, right wing thug on this one.

dogma wrote:
And I've been called a jack-booted, right wing thug on this one.

This one's for you Dogma: From his most Imperial Excellency: