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By the way Lionfire, who's the artist on that avatar? I like the artistic style of it.

SilverMK2 wrote:That particular problem has been known for a long time in the medical profession, which is why it is not the only measure of obesity they will use (although it is a good yardstick in the majority of cases).

Yeah, most people, especially most women, don't exercise much. Many women are afraid that if they exercise they'll bulk up...


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dogma wrote:

Amaya wrote:Those statistics are probably skewed because they all use the same BMI scale and men typically weigh more than women. According to the BMI, I'm borderline obese and I don't look remotely fat.

You can be obese without being fat. Carrying too much muscle is bad as well.

No.

You cannot.

Obesity is DEFINED by excessive fat levels. A person with too much muscle and not enough fat can have medical problems, but obesity isn't one of them.

Slarg232 wrote:

Damn it man, saying that I just know some Femanist research group is going to counterpoint "Staring at boobs is healthy for you".



I'm crying tears.

Well, I mean EXCEPT for that study. That one's 100% accurate.

SilverMK2 wrote:That particular problem has been known for a long time in the medical profession, which is why it is not the only measure of obesity they will use (although it is a good yardstick in the majority of cases).

Yeah, most people, especially most women, don't exercise much. Many women are afraid that if they exercise they'll bulk up...

Which of course is utterly moronic because it takes a long time and proper dieting to "bulk up".
If you bulk up, it's because 1. your diet sucks or 2. because you wanted to

dogma wrote:
You can be obese without being fat. Carrying too much muscle is bad as well.

Obesity is when you carry too much fat.

Too much muscle isn't necessarily bad. The only problem with "too much muscle" is that it often requires steroids, which are the more dangerous part of it if anything.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Too much muscle isn't necessarily bad.

Well, actually it can be. The more muscle you have, the heavier and bigger you are, and the harder your heart has to work. Too much, and it places a lot of strain on your heart.

And plus, having inordinate amounts of muscle looks just as gross as really obese people.

Case in point, Carrot Top.

rubiksnoob wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Too much muscle isn't necessarily bad.

Well, actually it can be. The more muscle you have, the heavier and bigger you are, and the harder your heart has to work. Too much, and it places a lot of strain on your heart.

And plus, having inordinate amounts of muscle looks just as gross as really obese people.

Vladsimpaler wrote:The only problem with "too much muscle" is that it often requires steroids, which are the more dangerous part of it if anything.

Natural bodybuilders are perfectly healthy and don't look gross. If anything, they're aesthetically pleasing.

I do agree with you about people like Jay Cutler and all the other dudes who are juicing.

Amaya wrote:A lot of people overeat due to depression and boredom.

That's part of it, in that eating is a very easy, but very satisfying activity. For people who turn into formless mountains, there are a lot other underlying problems as well, but for the rest of us, the problem is that in current U.S. society, we're offered so many opportunities to indulge it's mind blowing. It's just a factor of human nature that the more opportunities we're offered to indulge ourselves, the more we're going to give in, and as I mentioned before, a lot of people are pretty ignorant about nutrition.

When I started driving, cupholders were not a standard feature. If I wanted someplace secure to hold my soda I had to buy one of those holders you fit into the window slot. Nowadays, they're pretty much standard because people so frequently have something to put in one. It's easy and convenient to grab a drink on the run, but the problem is, those calories add up. It takes about 3000 kcalories in excess of your daily requirements to add a pound of fat. A can of regular soda has about 120. Not so bad, until you look at how the rate of soda consumption has been rising in the U.S. Anecdotally , I've known people who go through a 12 pack every day or two, or whole will wash down a small bad of chips with a couple of cans of soda while on a study break. Opportunities to eat are easy, and there are myriad ways for those extra calories to sneak in, at the same time that activity levels continue to drop.

Another issue with all those delicious snacks and processed foods is that they tend to be very caloricly dense, but much less filling. Two oreo cookies have the same caloric load as a medium sized apple. Eating six cookies, one after another is pretty easy. Three apples is not so easy to do in a row, and is going to leave you feeling a lot fuller. Two frosted pop-tarts come in at 400+ kcalories. Even if you add honey and cream, consider how much oatmeal you'd need to eat to hit that same mark.

The flaws of the BMI are well recognized, but not relevant. The fattest state in the U.S. twenty years ago had a lower obesity rate than the current thinnest state today. It doesn't really matter if your scale of measurement is misaligned when what you're looking at is the absolute difference between two points. It's also more than adequately backed up by other sources, like the armed forces reporting a consistent increase in the average weight of new recruits. The plethora of opportunities extra calories have to sneak in, and the decreasing rates of activity is why the national waistline keeps expanding, and there is no easy way to stop it. McDonald's offers giant cups of sweet tea, which is pretty much a weaponized sugar delivery system, for $1, and people are gulping it up. The only way things can change for the better will be a massive cultural and behavioral shift about how we eat, and what people are taught about nutrition, but given the current climate, and the national attitude, it's not one I see happening.

I am interested by the fact that the Japanese have the same opportunities to get fat as westerners, but they don't.

Of course there are some grossly fat Japanese, and a fair number of podgy ones, but the average is very thin. Japanese women are particularly thin. In my view, unhealthily so - they seem obsessed with keeping their weight down.

Part of the explanation is the low fat home diet in Japan (I lose one or two kilos a week when I'm living in Japan) but that only defers the question. Japanese people could have a high fat diet at home if they wanted, and equally, westerners could have a low fat diet if they wanted.

Now i'm a fairly big feller (6'4" and 20 stone) and take allot of exercise (jogging and playing and training for rugger), and the last time the Dr weighed an measured me I was not found wanting; despite what I assumed he would say.

So can we stop ragging on the BMI, I prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is in all ways accurate.

BMI Rules!

Kilkrazy wrote:I am interested by the fact that the Japanese have the same opportunities to get fat as westerners, but they don't.

Of course there are some grossly fat Japanese, and a fair number of podgy ones, but the average is very thin. Japanese women are particularly thin. In my view, unhealthily so - they seem obsessed with keeping their weight down.

Part of the explanation is the low fat home diet in Japan (I lose one or two kilos a week when I'm living in Japan) but that only defers the question. Japanese people could have a high fat diet at home if they wanted, and equally, westerners could have a low fat diet if they wanted.

I do! Most of my diet is carbs from pasta, with low fat sauces, and the nutrition lean chicken gives you, amongst other healthy side dishes (the occasional veg dish, potatoes, etc).

Mind you, the rest of my family tends towards fast meals. Like canned soups, or tv dinners (ugh).

Kilkrazy wrote:I am interested by the fact that the Japanese have the same opportunities to get fat as westerners, but they don't.

Of course there are some grossly fat Japanese, and a fair number of podgy ones, but the average is very thin. Japanese women are particularly thin. In my view, unhealthily so - they seem obsessed with keeping their weight down.

Part of the explanation is the low fat home diet in Japan (I lose one or two kilos a week when I'm living in Japan) but that only defers the question. Japanese people could have a high fat diet at home if they wanted, and equally, westerners could have a low fat diet if they wanted.

That`s actually a very interesting point. I would guess it`s the cultural differences. "The American Way" has affected not only USA, but also many other western countries, as most of Europe has adopted American

culture. While MickDonalds might be more accepted in western culture, many Japanese people just don`t see it as a viable option. Or maybe it`s just the fact that sushi taste much better than a McWooper

Tubby

Edited for spelling.

Kilkrazy wrote:I am interested by the fact that the Japanese have the same opportunities to get fat as westerners, but they don't.

7-11 does a very good job of illustrating why. Walk into a US 7-11, and the first things presented to you are the candy aisle, the snack aisle the next one down, followed a bakery case, and then usually hot dog rollers, toquitas or whatever other hot snacks, and then behind those the soda fountain and row of slushy machines. Easy, cheap, convenient, portable junk food in whatever quantity you desire.

Go to a Japanese 7-11, and what they have right by the door is not a candy rack, but a manga shelf, followed by the magazine rack. The candy aisle is one of the first ones in, but unlike in the states where it runs the length of the store, the actual candy is only half an aisle, bagged snacks filling out the rest. No bakery case, no soda fountain, no slushy machines. They have a cooler full of bottled drinks just like the states, but you usually see more rows of green and black teas (mostly unsweetened) than soda. Your choice of cola is coke and diet coke (maybe). There's a cooler full of onigiri, sandwiches, box lunches, and desserts, but none of them are the calorie bomb that grabbing a couple US microwave burritos would be.

McDonald's is another good example. Aside from occasional specials, the Big Mac is just about the biggest sandwhich on the menu. Their large cups are about the same size as a US small. Supersizing your fries will get you about as much as a U.S. medium. There were six McDonald's within walking distance of my apartment, so the ease of access was there, but the portion sizing was immensely more reasonable. It's part of the way a lot of people are wired - they will eat all the food put in front of them, be it a big mac, small fries, and small cola (950 kcalories) or an Angus Deluxe meal, with super-sized fries and a drink (1770 kcalories).

Going to Japanese Denny's or Big Boy, the first couple of times I scoffed at how small the portions were, but at the end of the meal i realized I'd still eaten a perfectly decent amount of food, even if it hadn't seemed like 'that much.' Seeing how things are done in other parts of the world grants a lot of perspective.

Melissia wrote:
Obesity is DEFINED by excessive fat levels. A person with too much muscle and not enough fat can have medical problems, but obesity isn't one of them.

You're not reading my post correctly. A person can be obese, have excess fat, without being "fat" in the colloquial sense.

Body composition is only an either/or issue if you've never actually paid any attention to the matter, which most people never do.


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Vladsimpaler wrote:
Obesity is when you carry too much fat.

Having too much fat has nothing to do with being "fat", and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with body fat percentage.

Read what is written, not what you think is being said.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Too much muscle isn't necessarily bad. The only problem with "too much muscle" is that it often requires steroids, which are the more dangerous part of it if anything.

No, too much muscle is necessarily bad, that's what makes it "too much". And it doesn't require steroids. A person can gain excessive muscle without ever touching chemical supplements.


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Melissia wrote:The BMI chart doesn't account for muscle mass as opposed to fat mass, which is why it's so fethed up.

That said, I don't think it's exactly false that the US has an obesity problem. It's just overblown like every problem put through our mass media is.

There's a lot of research that suggests that it doesn't matter.


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Vladsimpaler wrote:
Natural bodybuilders are perfectly healthy and don't look gross. If anything, they're aesthetically pleasing.

There's no such thing as a natural bodybuilder.

If you're actually competing, then you aren't simply going about your daily business without having a aggressive training regime as a part of that.

Most of them are at least chemical dependent for their physique, and all of them undergo excessive cutting regimens prior to competition.

dogma wrote:

Amaya wrote:Those statistics are probably skewed because they all use the same BMI scale and men typically weigh more than women. According to the BMI, I'm borderline obese and I don't look remotely fat.

You can be obese without being fat. Carrying too much muscle is bad as well.

"Obesity is a medical condition in which excess body fat has accumulated to the extent that it may have an adverse effect on health..."-Wikipedia.

Here's a few more links that explain what obesity is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity
http://www.obesitycanada.com/
http://bodyandhealth.canada.com/channel_condition_info_details.asp?channel_id=1055&disease_id=95&relation_id=17519
http://www.who.int/topics/obesity/en/
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obesity

There's a lot of research that suggests that it doesn't matter.

So you claim, yes.

Cheesecat wrote:

dogma wrote:

Amaya wrote:Those statistics are probably skewed because they all use the same BMI scale and men typically weigh more than women. According to the BMI, I'm borderline obese and I don't look remotely fat.

You can be obese without being fat. Carrying too much muscle is bad as well.

"Obesity is a medical condition in which excess body fat has accumulated to the extent that it may have an adverse effect on health..."-Wikipedia.

Here's a few more links that explain what obesity is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity
http://www.obesitycanada.com/
http://bodyandhealth.canada.com/channel_condition_info_details.asp?channel_id=1055&disease_id=95&relation_id=17519
http://www.who.int/topics/obesity/en/
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obesity

You can carry excessive fat without being fat in an observable sense. I already said this. Read the thread.


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Melissia wrote:

There's a lot of research that suggests that it doesn't matter.

So you claim, yes.

You can't do a Google search? Even if you can't read entire articles you can at least read abstracts.

Saying what you've just said in the age of the internet is basically just an admission of either indifference or laziness.

Bookwrack wrote:... ...

Going to Japanese Denny's or Big Boy, the first couple of times I scoffed at how small the portions were, but at the end of the meal i realized I'd still eaten a perfectly decent amount of food, even if it hadn't seemed like 'that much.' Seeing how things are done in other parts of the world grants a lot of perspective.

Portion control.

I read about a study a few years ago, which investigated why the French, who eat mainly lard deep fried in butter, covered with cream and cheese, don't get so fat as Americans. The conclusion was simply that American meal portions are larger.

When I went to the doctor recently for a health check, the nurse lambasted me for being fat, and showed me pictures of what is medically considered a correct portion size in the UK. I couldn't believe how small the meals looked, barely enough to keep a sparrow going.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:... ...

Going to Japanese Denny's or Big Boy, the first couple of times I scoffed at how small the portions were, but at the end of the meal i realized I'd still eaten a perfectly decent amount of food, even if it hadn't seemed like 'that much.' Seeing how things are done in other parts of the world grants a lot of perspective.

Portion control.

I read about a study a few years ago, which investigated why the French, who eat mainly lard deep fried in butter, covered with cream and cheese, don't get so fat as Americans. The conclusion was simply that American meal portions are larger.

When I went to the doctor recently for a health check, the nurse lambasted me for being fat, and showed me pictures of what is medically considered a correct portion size in the UK. I couldn't believe how small the meals looked, barely enough to keep a sparrow going.

That's true...portion control is the key..of course..when the average New Orleans dinner looks like this..







...All in one go...portion control is difficult.

The problem isn't simply portion control, it's what people are eating in excess, which happens to be sugar and carbs.

Edit: I think that the most natural human diet would be primarily meats, vegetables, and fruits.

Nah, what you eat doesn't really matter that much when we're speaking of excess calories. Certain foods will make you feel satiated for longer than others, but regarding the conversion of calories to body fat there is no appreciable difference.

Doesn't eating large amounts of sugar/complex carbs cause your insulin levels to spike, though? That makes you gain weight, or so I hear.

Albatross wrote:Doesn't eating large amounts of sugar/complex carbs cause your insulin levels to spike, though? That makes you gain weight, or so I hear.

Its only monosaccharides really, and it won't cause weight gain if the body has no calories with which to produce weight gain; even then the difference is negligible.

Your insulin levels are supposed to go up and down in response to changing blood sugar level in order to sustain a correct supply of sugar.

It is only a problem if your calorie intake is sustained above your output. Then the spare calories are converted into fat for long term storage.

You can get calories from all types of food. Fat is the most concentrated. Sugar is the simplest. Protein can also be converted into sugar for energy if required.

warpcrafter wrote:My grandfather ate eggs fried in bacon grease every day and lived to be 95. I, for one have absolutely no intention of living so long that I have to go back into diapers. Waiter!!! More Tacos!!!

YOU SIR ARE SPOT ON.

dogma wrote:You can't do a Google search? Even if you can't read entire articles you can at least read abstracts.

More importantly, you can't do a google search to prove your own point? Now THAT is the epitome of laziness. You're the one attempting to make a point, don't ask others to do your fethin' research for ya buddy

Albatross wrote:Doesn't eating large amounts of sugar/complex carbs cause your insulin levels to spike, though? That makes you gain weight, or so I hear.

It spikes your sugar level and some people can't process it fast enough so it ends up being stored as fat.

Fat is a long term energy store, that is why starving people become thin.

Fat has about twice the energy density of sugar, so storing all your spare energy as fat rather than sugar (starch) would actually make you weigh less, if that is how physiology worked. But it isn't.

Melissia wrote:More importantly, you can't do a google search to prove your own point? Now THAT is the epitome of laziness. You're the one attempting to make a point, don't ask others to do your fethin' research for ya buddy

I've already done my research, this was my livelihood up until about 6 months ago. In fact, I wouldn't be able to make such a point without doing the research, what I'm encouraging you to do is take a look at relevant information before forming an opinion with respect to something that you are clearly ignorant of.

I blame fat people! They have envisioned a world where only fat people remain, so they won't be ugly anymore... and won't live past 50.

As a member of the health field, I just want to say your gripes against BMI are really only against the chart for it that use height and weight. BMI (Body Mass Index) is supposed to be measured by total body immersion or failing that, skin calpers.

Obesity is generally defined as having a BMI > 30. This is that your body mass is > 30% made of adipose tissue (fat).

Diet and activity levels are both important in controlling your BMI, however please be kind to chronically obese people because over time adipose tissue can become endocrine (hormone producing) thus perpetuating the problem