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1, as only the plasma gunner that fired can suffer the wound

Jidmah wrote:I dare you to find one in the m:tg rules, there are none I've played over a thousand games under the current rules, I never failed to find an answer to any given situation within seconds. ?

I've got one for you. You're playing a casual game while sitting close to a pro tour championship game.

You have Swirl the Mists in play, choosing black. It says "As Swirl the Mists enters the battlefield, choose a color word. All instances of color words in the text of spells and permanents are changed to the chosen color word."

You play Ass Whuppin' which says "Destroy target silver-bordered permanent in any game you can see from your seat." Swirl the Mists changes the word silver to black. So, you can target any black-bordered permanent. However, silver bordered cards (which Ass Whuppin' is) can't interact with an official game.

So, you then Twin-Cast or Fork it, making a duplicate copy. Border color isn't copied, so you now have a black bordered card that has Ass Whuppin's effect, targeting any black-bordered permanent you can see. Can you target a card being used in that pro tour game?

biccat wrote:

Elessar wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Elessar wrote:It CANNOT go either way depending on interpretation - it can be ignored, if that is the wish of the players. However, if my opponent wishes to ignore that rule, I wish to ignore the rule that says my Fast Skimmers can't shoot all their weapons after moving Flat Out.

...and that 'my interpretation is the only possible correct one' is exactly where a lot of the issues people have with the rules come from.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that people have an issue because I am telling them the rules, and telling them that they ARE the rules, with no room for discussion?
These would be the kind of people who struggle to get to grips with the education system in any meaningful way, I assume? Because life is full of people telling you how it is, and they need to get used to it.

Just out of curiosity, since you know what all the rules are, could you explain how the following situation would work?

A unit of 10 Chaos Chosen includes 2 plasma guns. Both plasma guns rapidfire. One plasma gunner rolls 2 s. Both armor saves are failed.

How many models are removed?

Depends. If you roll the models individually, one. If you do not roll the two guys separately, or with different coloured dice, both, as you cannot legitimately claim only one rolled the '1' when you have two of them to distribute. (Eg, you roll the whole unit at once, using 16 black dice for Boltguns [let's assume every model is in 12" and has LoS] and 4 red dice for Plasma. If you roll two results of '1' to hit with red dice, both would then take an armour save. If you roll 2 red and 2 orange dice, and both of the reds are '1', then one guy takes two hits.)

Also, I don't claim to 'know ever rule' - but that doesn't mean there isn't one correct way to interpret them all.

Grakmar wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I dare you to find one in the m:tg rules, there are none I've played over a thousand games under the current rules, I never failed to find an answer to any given situation within seconds. ?

I've got one for you. You're playing a casual game while sitting close to a pro tour championship game.

You have Swirl the Mists in play, choosing black. It says "As Swirl the Mists enters the battlefield, choose a color word. All instances of color words in the text of spells and permanents are changed to the chosen color word."

You play Ass Whuppin' which says "Destroy target silver-bordered permanent in any game you can see from your seat." Swirl the Mists changes the word silver to black. So, you can target any black-bordered permanent. However, silver bordered cards (which Ass Whuppin' is) can't interact with an official game.

So, you then Twin-Cast or Fork it, making a duplicate copy. Border color isn't copied, so you now have a black bordered card that has Ass Whuppin's effect, targeting any black-bordered permanent you can see. Can you target a card being used in that pro tour game?

Simple solution, for two reasons. First "silver" is not a color, only the five colors defined in magic can ever be color words. Second, "silver-borderd" is not using a color in the correct way, so it would not be affected.

Also note that the DCI bans cards based on their edition, not their border color, so even a black-bordered Ass Whuppin' would not be able to interact with any tiered game.

Good one though, actually had to open up the comp rules for it

Elessar wrote:Depends. If you roll the models individually, one. If you do not roll the two guys separately, or with different coloured dice, both, as you cannot legitimately claim only one rolled the '1' when you have two of them to distribute. (Eg, you roll the whole unit at once, using 16 black dice for Boltguns [let's assume every model is in 12" and has LoS] and 4 red dice for Plasma. If you roll two results of '1' to hit with red dice, both would then take an armour save. If you roll 2 red and 2 orange dice, and both of the reds are '1', then one guy takes two hits.)

1) How are you supposed to roll multiple shots from plasma guns? Is it 4 dice, or 2 groups of 2? Please cite a rule.

2) If the unit suffers 2 unsaved wounds from plasma guns, why do you only remove 1 model when you have 2 identical models? See the section on wound allocation.

There's not a clear answer to this question, because the idea of "wounds suffered" is used interchangeably in the rules.

The rules for "Gets Hot!" say you apply it 'per model' - this is not allocating wounds.

I already said you are free to roll it either way, no rule says which method is correct. However, if you roll them together (see example) you can lose both.

The unit does NOT suffer unsaved wounds from Plasma Guns, it suffers unsaved wounds from "Gets Hot!"

about the topic of Pop82, first of all, the rulebook has lover 300 pages. If you can remember and quote by heart all of that, sir I would want your memory. 2nd of all, this is the 5th edition. So players that have been playing the game for a while (played 4th edition or before) will confuse the old rules with the new ones alot. That is why you should ALWAYS have a rule book with you. And situations always arise when the army codex interfere with the rulebook or become a grey zone for a certain rule.

The rulebook has only 100 pages of actual rules.....

Serder wrote:about the topic of Pop82, first of all, the rulebook has lover 300 pages. If you can remember and quote by heart all of that, sir I would want your memory. 2nd of all, this is the 5th edition. So players that have been playing the game for a while (played 4th edition or before) will confuse the old rules with the new ones alot. That is why you should ALWAYS have a rule book with you. And situations always arise when the army codex interfere with the rulebook or become a grey zone for a certain rule.

agreed, this is why i just keep my little assault on black reach book on me pretty much all the time, i have a few copies of it , one in my lunchbox i bring to work, one in my bag with army lists and one at my home computer rule books are a must for a game to happen hnce why oen is perminatly with my orks alongside thier codex... the boyz don't go without the books (hows that for ironic i bet none of my orks would know what to do with a book*

*except the burners... and they'd use them for different purposes

Serder wrote:about the topic of Pop82, first of all, the rulebook has lover 300 pages. If you can remember and quote by heart all of that, sir I would want your memory. 2nd of all, this is the 5th edition. So players that have been playing the game for a while (played 4th edition or before) will confuse the old rules with the new ones alot. That is why you should ALWAYS have a rule book with you. And situations always arise when the army codex interfere with the rulebook or become a grey zone for a certain rule.

They can get confused, though this can be overcome. I have played since 2e, after all - and I don't confuse the rules with older ones practically ever. Maybe it's the Tigerblood.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The rulebook has only 100 pages of actual rules.....

Wait......

Fluff Isn't rules?

biccat wrote:

Elessar wrote:Depends. If you roll the models individually, one. If you do not roll the two guys separately, or with different coloured dice, both, as you cannot legitimately claim only one rolled the '1' when you have two of them to distribute. (Eg, you roll the whole unit at once, using 16 black dice for Boltguns [let's assume every model is in 12" and has LoS] and 4 red dice for Plasma. If you roll two results of '1' to hit with red dice, both would then take an armour save. If you roll 2 red and 2 orange dice, and both of the reds are '1', then one guy takes two hits.)

1) How are you supposed to roll multiple shots from plasma guns? Is it 4 dice, or 2 groups of 2? Please cite a rule.

2) If the unit suffers 2 unsaved wounds from plasma guns, why do you only remove 1 model when you have 2 identical models? See the section on wound allocation.

There's not a clear answer to this question, because the idea of "wounds suffered" is used interchangeably in the rules.

You roll per model in an identical manner to dangerous terrain. If you really must roll both at the same time use differently coloured dice. This is not a difficult one to grasp.

Corrode wrote:

biccat wrote:

Elessar wrote:Depends. If you roll the models individually, one. If you do not roll the two guys separately, or with different coloured dice, both, as you cannot legitimately claim only one rolled the '1' when you have two of them to distribute. (Eg, you roll the whole unit at once, using 16 black dice for Boltguns [let's assume every model is in 12" and has LoS] and 4 red dice for Plasma. If you roll two results of '1' to hit with red dice, both would then take an armour save. If you roll 2 red and 2 orange dice, and both of the reds are '1', then one guy takes two hits.)

1) How are you supposed to roll multiple shots from plasma guns? Is it 4 dice, or 2 groups of 2? Please cite a rule.

2) If the unit suffers 2 unsaved wounds from plasma guns, why do you only remove 1 model when you have 2 identical models? See the section on wound allocation.

There's not a clear answer to this question, because the idea of "wounds suffered" is used interchangeably in the rules.

You roll per model in an identical manner to dangerous terrain. If you really must roll both at the same time use differently coloured dice. This is not a difficult one to grasp.

Agreed, but I don't think the rules specifically TELL you to do so. Some people need their wangs held while they urinate.

They actually tell you to roll each die individually. Fast rolling is for convenience when there are no such issues. Page 18 main rules.

Elessar wrote:

Corrode wrote:

biccat wrote:

Elessar wrote:Depends. If you roll the models individually, one. If you do not roll the two guys separately, or with different coloured dice, both, as you cannot legitimately claim only one rolled the '1' when you have two of them to distribute. (Eg, you roll the whole unit at once, using 16 black dice for Boltguns [let's assume every model is in 12" and has LoS] and 4 red dice for Plasma. If you roll two results of '1' to hit with red dice, both would then take an armour save. If you roll 2 red and 2 orange dice, and both of the reds are '1', then one guy takes two hits.)

1) How are you supposed to roll multiple shots from plasma guns? Is it 4 dice, or 2 groups of 2? Please cite a rule.

2) If the unit suffers 2 unsaved wounds from plasma guns, why do you only remove 1 model when you have 2 identical models? See the section on wound allocation.

There's not a clear answer to this question, because the idea of "wounds suffered" is used interchangeably in the rules.

You roll per model in an identical manner to dangerous terrain. If you really must roll both at the same time use differently coloured dice. This is not a difficult one to grasp.

Agreed, but I don't think the rules specifically TELL you to do so. Some people need their wangs held while they urinate.

They don't really need to. Units don't fire weapons, models fire weapons. Gets Hot! is a property of the weapon. If you roll a 1, the weapon Gets Hot!; since only the model with the plasma gun fired it then the wounds from it only apply to him. Even if you have multiple p. guns in a unit, each one is fired by the model holding it, not by some weird 'all the plasma gunners' group. Gets Hot! even says 'the firing model'. Anyone with a basic degree of reading comprehension can figure it out, but then I guess we wouldn't have YMDC if that was true.

As said before, that's one problem of the size and firing conventions of the game, as currently being played. Technically, you should roll each model's attacks separately; this gets a bit time-consuming when you have 30 3 attack models in a group, though.

Anvildude wrote:For example, I think everyone here would agree that the Orkish Deffrolla is a weapon. It's a big spikey drum that kills things, and it's an addition onto the vehicle. So, I assumed it could count for a Weapon Destroyed result, because, hey, it's a weapon. But, because it's not listed under the 'weapons' section of Battlewagon wargear (which isn't even called "weapons" btw) it does not count.

That's a case of finickyness, and a strange FAQ.

No. We don't agree. While it is a weapon in the dictionary sense of the word, it is not a weapon that can be destroyed per se like a Big Shoota. The biggest argument I have for not being able to "destroy" the rolla is that if the wagon becomes immobilised, the rollla is useless whereas other weapons can still fire. I look at it as you destroy the rolla when you immobilise the vehicle. And, I never saw this argument over Reinforced Ram being able to be destroyed.

This is a classic example of why their is dispute (back to the OP). The bottom line is I am an ork player. I favor the ruling that favors the ork and if I was facing an ork player, vice versa. I think the biggest dispute is people read the rules how they want them to read to be the most advantageous to their army.

Agree with Green is Best!(even with your nickname).

Other than the "Get's hot!" example it actually IS unclear whether the deff rolla is a weapon, as it acts as dozer blade(defined as not a weapon) and it hurts stuff(probably a weapon). It could go either way, though I favour the non-weapon aproach. I probably would even if I weren't playing orks, but this is not the place to discuss.

Green is Best! wrote: And, I never saw this argument over Reinforced Ram being able to be destroyed.

I never saw anyone claiming it functioned like a weapon as it is simple to claim the Deff Rolla does.

Being a weapon is not a requirement.

/shrug

It is for weapon destroyed results

It was bad enough trying to get people to accept that plowing a spiked steamroller into a vehicle could cause damage

Ascalam wrote:It is for weapon destroyed results

No, actually it isn't.

Being a weapon is one thing listed, but not the only.

Precisely. Dictionary definitions, vs. Game definitions. That wouldn't even be that much of a problem, if the game actually gave definitions for words but it does not.

Elessar wrote:If I understand you correctly, you are saying that people have an issue because I am telling them the rules, and telling them that they ARE the rules, with no room for discussion?

No, what I'm saying is that deciding that your interpretation is the only possible correct one when the issue can be interpreted in more than one way causes issues.

The fact that you don't agree with a given interpretation doesn't automatically make it wrong. Accepting the possibility that people might read something differently to yourself, not because they are idiots, or because they're trying to bend the rules, but simply because it can be read to mean something different to what you took it to mean, is generally far more helpful in rules discussions than simply declaring 'This is the way it is, because I know English, me!'

Particularly in a game where the way it's played is often contrary to the strict letter of the rules as written.

kirsanth wrote:

Green is Best! wrote: And, I never saw this argument over Reinforced Ram being able to be destroyed.

I never saw anyone claiming it functioned like a weapon as it is simple to claim the Deff Rolla does.

Being a weapon is not a requirement.

/shrug

Not trying to hijack the thread, but the point I was making was that a reinforced ram allows you to tank shock, which, while not causing wounds, does affect the unit in play. People want the deff rolla to be a weapon so they can destroy it because it works to their advantage. They never had such an issue with the ram because it did not dole out damage like a rolla.

Now, if you want to make the claim that a deff rolla is a weapon and can be destroyed, then allow my orks to disengage it from the battlewagon and push it around when it gets immobilised. Do people destroy wrecking balls, boarding planks (and for that matter, the nob with a klaw inside since it is now a weapon on the vehicle)? Otherwise, the deffrolla is effectively 'destroyed' when you immobilise the vehicle.

And personally, I think GW words their rules vaguely intentionaly so they can read these forums and mock us.

Green is Best! wrote: People want the deff rolla to be a weapon so they can destroy it because it works to their advantage. They never had such an issue with the ram because it did not dole out damage like a rolla.

When I play Ork players in tournements I ask if it is a weapon. Every single one has prefered that it IS so far. As their opponent, I have never cared which, so long as it is clarified first.

Do not assume so much.

Green is Best! wrote:And personally, I think GW words their rules vaguely intentionaly so they can read these forums and mock us.

This I agree with to a hilareous degree.

Editing to add:
It = Deffrolla.

That would be absolutely hilarious if the squad could push the Deffrolla around afterwards!

Honestly though, could just think of it as a weapon with an effective range of 0". Boarding Plank would also have a range of 2".

And it might actually be a great benefit if a trukk or BW with a Boarding Plank could take the Nob as a Weapon on a 3 result- to both players.

kirsanth wrote:

Green is Best! wrote: People want the deff rolla to be a weapon so they can destroy it because it works to their advantage. They never had such an issue with the ram because it did not dole out damage like a rolla.

When I play Ork players in tournements I ask if it is a weapon. Every single one has prefered that it IS so far. As their opponent, I have never cared which, so long as it is clarified first.

Do not assume so much.

Thats weird, because every ork tactica and every ork tourney player advices to take a single big shootas for wagons to prevent the first weapon destroyed from immoblizing it. I also don't recall ever seeing the deff rolla destroyed by weapon destroyed results in any battle report I've ever read. Green's example was probably a bad one, try wrecking ball instead. Noone would ever argue to destroy a wrecking ball, simply because it's not a good upgrade. And they are even more of a weapon than deff rollas.

^ Agreed, I had never previously even heard this (IMO) nonsense about it being a weapon.

It's like saying a vehicle's hull is a weapon, because it causes damage in a Ram. :/

'ceptin the other vehicle causes damage back in a ram. Also, other vehicles (and upgrades like the Reinforced Ram) cause Tank Shock, which does not deal damage, to non-vehicle units. The Deffrolla does deal damage.

Not necessarily arguing one way or the other, just sayin' how I see things.

It *was* a deliberately stupid retort.