Ailaros wrote:Mannahnin wrote:Ailaros wrote:Plague marines are more survivable, but they do less damage. MUCH less damage.
Not so much less to make up for them being 2-4 times as survivable in the open field.
Actually, the opposite is true. You get more than you lose with berzerkers. Just run the numbers. Fewer berzerkers will win more close combats with more berzerkers left over than will more plague marines.
x number of Plague Marines will hit comparably hard or harder than half to one fourth their number of Berserkers. This is the point. We're talking about a specific application- footslogging- in which they will get shot up before they get there, and probably have to eat the charge from an enemy unit rather than getting the charge themselves. This is a job
PMs are substantially better at than Berserkers. 2 Plague Marines, not charging, against
SM: .33 dead marines. 1 Berserker, not charging, against
SM: . 33 dead marines. Yes, the Berserkers are slightly cheaper, but they die literally twice as fast to S7 guns, and
PMs have a substantially bigger durability advantage against S3-S6 attacks. Before suggesting someone else run the numbers, you might want to run them yourself.
How about HtH? 9 Grey Hunters with Fist (plus a
WG with fist) charge Plague Marines: 16 regular attacks, 8 hits, 2.66 wounds, .44 dead
PMs from regular attacks. 3 Fist attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.26 dead. Total of 1.7 dead
PMs. Same unit charges Berserkers: 24 regular attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 dead Berserkers from regular attacks. 5 fist attacks, 2.5 hits, 2.1 dead. Total of 4.1 dead Berserkers.
Ailaros wrote:Mannahnin wrote: But in this particular application (a large squad walking up the middle of the table while bodyguarding a killer HtH character) the PMs win.
Which is something I actually still question. Survivability has no particular value on it's own...
5th edition
40k is won by surviving and superior positioning. Having fewer units die in Annihilation, and having scoring units alive and controlling objectives at the end in the other two missions.
VPs are practically irrelevant. Your premise is invalid, and seems based on older editions of the game.
Ailaros wrote:...especially since both berzerkers and PMs are very likely to be able to deliver abbadon after only a turn or 2 of exposure.
It's going to be a lot more than "a turn or two" if your opponent is competent. Your opponent will evade as best he can while softening the unit, ideally trying to get you weak enough that whatever
HtH elements he has can beat you. What
HtH elements is he likely to have? Hammernators,
TWC,
GH,
BA AM, Wyches, Genestealers, Ork Boys, etc. Against all of these things, Plagues are more durable than Berserkers. Against most of them the T5 and
FNP make a big difference. Against the only major unit which doesn't care about T5 and
FNP,
TH/
SS terminators, Blight Grenades make a big difference. This kind of deathstar is viable only insofar as it controls the center of the table (thus garnering a big advantage in the objective missions), and (between Abaddon and itself) scores more
KPs than it gives up in Annihilation.
PMs are better at both of those things than Berserkers, since they are much harder to kill.
Ailaros wrote:...Plus, as people have been mentioning,
...like me.
Ailaros wrote:... PMs are only situationally more survivable. Against anything that denies FNP, they're likely not any more survivable, they're just more expensive.
Sure. Against maybe 10% of the weapons out there, they are no more durable, and less than 10% more expensive. Against 90%+ of the weapons out there, they are 100%-300% more durable than Berserkers, and still less than 10% more expensive. Your opponent doesn't necessarily have enough S7+ weapons which deny armor saves and
FNP to deal with an entire big unit of
PMs. He probably does have enough to deal with a similarly-sized unit of Berserkers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: minigun762 wrote:Mannahnin wrote:Any kind of blast that's A3 and S8+, or AP2 and S7+ is a problem for plagues. But you can spread out, and can often get cover saves, even with a big unit. Ork players do it all the time, with terrain-wrapping. Of course you can take the occasional AP3 hit on Abaddon, too.
True but Orks have the advantage of a mobile cover save and being 1/4 the price tag.
I'm not talking about the
KFF. I specifically said "with terrain-wrapping". You only need half of your unit to be obscured from the firing unit's perspective to get a cover save. You can do it by moving around terrain, and/or using vehicles (either empty or bearing other units). Of course you only need to do so against Battlecannons and similar weapons. Against lesser guns you can conga-line. Against anything which doesn't get past your save and
FNP, you just ignore it and run down their throat. The speed at which you can approach depends on your threat assessment of your opponent's available weaponry.
minigun762 wrote:Thinking on this more, do you think you could reduce the whole point sink issue by taking a 5 man squad of Plague Marines with 2 Meltaguns as the escort instead? Suddenly your squad is alot cheaper (but still expensive) but still providing some good bullet catchers for the big guy.
No, it doesn't work. You spend 135pts, still give up the
KP & lose the scoring unit before you get across the table, and then Abby can still be shot and/or beaten in combat by comparable killer assault units. Hammernators plus Null Zone will eat his lunch if he doesn't still have guys left to absorb most of the attacks while he fights.
minigun762 wrote:Just Dave wrote:Finally however, I don't think either concept would work as 700+pts could be much better spent elsewhere and under such a points cost you could get a Land Raider and retinue instead which I believe would perform better.
I really think this is the key point here. There are better
HQs for the points then Abaddon and investing more points either though transport or escorts doesn't do much to improve his playability. However if you are set on using Abaddon, I think the Plague Marine escort is a valid alternative to the Land Raider.
It
is a gimmicky concept. The point is that opponents expect
LRs and bring tools to deal with them, whether railguns, multimeltas on vehicles, squads with multiple meltaguns, etc. They don't expect a huge unit of
PMs, and don't usually have the tools to deal with it. The tactics they have to adapt to deal with it (move back to give it room and buy more time to shoot it) cede control of the table center, giving you a substantial tactical edge.
SMs often do something similar with a
LR full of hammernators supported with Null Zone, but Chaos sadly can't achieve the same effect most of the time because of their inferiority of our
LRs. Ours can't get a multimelta, and don't get the ability to drive 12" and still fire said multimelta. But with the
PM + Abby unit, you pretty much laugh at multimeltas, as there aren't enough of them to put a substantial dent in the
PM unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Jihallah wrote:Plague marines are protected well against small arms fire, but when you get into weaponry used against them, your 23p model dies like a 6p boy. I'm not saying plague marines aren't tough as nails, I'm just pointing out that anti MEQ weapons turn plague marines into goop- as effectively as 8 point less CSM.
This is the exact reasoning I use for fielding
CSM as the backbone Troop in my lists rather than the more-popular
PMs.
That being said, only in a theoryhammer vacuum do opponents have the luxury of only targeting
PMs with the ideal weapons to negate their abilities. And
CSMs don't work as well in this particular application for the reasons I broke down before. They lack Fearless, they lack Blight Grenades, and they die much, much faster to 90+% of the weapons and close combat attacks in the game.
%@!&
.