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Shelegelah wrote:I regularly run a Slaanesh Chaos Lord with wings and a daemon weapon, and it's definitely very hit and miss. The mobility is amazing, and you're almost guaranteed to at least strike simultaneously against most HQs other than Archons, which means that you'll more than likely Instand Death them into a delightful coma composed of wet dreams and daemon-rape...

But there's always the fickle nature of the daemon weapon itself. Sure, it may be just a 1 in 6 chance per assault phase, but goddamn that can add up. Don't be surprised when your Lord's fancy daemon spear he spent the better part of a millennium obtaining decides it'd be fun times to shank him three times in the face while an otherwise helpless Necron Lord laughs a few inches away.... (No, I'm not bitter, not at all, why do you ask?)

I played in a tournament game with Abaddon and he poked himself in the face three times in the row with Drach'nyen. He also failed all three of those invulnerable saves. The next turn, gaunts shot him. It was depressing to say the least.

On the topic of mobility. Does a Lord on a Juggernaut of Khorne with daemon weapon act as cavalry (granting fleet as well)? Meaning it moves 6" the runs 1d6, then assaults 12" With 6 base attacks on the charge, +2d6 daemon weapon attacks, all at S5.

So thats 10-18 power weapon attacks at S5, with a threat range of at least 18" possibly 24" (assuming you dont roll a 1).

Or does he have to walk the entire @#$^% way?

Na the Jugger he is on is too slow :(.

If we are going to talk about the lord poking himself, we hav to talk about the chance of Perils and Hood shutting down psykic powers.We won't even mention GK.

Igenstilch wrote:
Or does he have to walk the entire @#$^% way?

and that is why the jugger isn't very appealing. All of the demonic mounts tell you what they count as. (Slaanesh acts as calvery, Tzeentch is a jump infantry, Nurgle is +1 wound but lets you ride in transports as if you were a terminator).

Everything except the poor jugger. Walk your 6 +d6 a turn, then try to charge without fleet. Did we mention that you have a 3+ save and t4?

akaean wrote:and that is why the jugger isn't very appealing. All of the demonic mounts tell you what they count as. (Slaanesh acts as calvery, Tzeentch is a jump infantry, Nurgle is +1 wound but lets you ride in transports as if you were a terminator).
Everything except the poor jugger. Walk your 6 +d6 a turn, then try to charge without fleet. Did we mention that you have a 3+ save and t4?

I can has a new chaos codex please?

Never!

To be fair, whilst it'd be a lot more balanced if it did increase toughness or was a beast etc. Juggernauts have never been noted for their 'speed'...

Legatto wrote:Kharn is sexy. A stupid opponent of mine had a trio of tanks in a V formation. Kharn was able to charge the tank at the back of the V and maintain base contact with all 3 (he was using the front 2 to shield the third cause it was immobilized). One round of combat and kharn killed all 3 tanks. Took a wound of explosion damage but hey, 3 tanks.

DP with wings, Nurgle, and warptime is also quite awesome. Fly him along the margins and aim for armor and shooty terminators or lootas. He will double his points if used correctly. Just remember that in a tournament setting you have to actually model the wings onto the DP.

It's a little much to say he was stupid...it could have been a tank squadron or something. Then again, if that were the case, the Immobilized should have counted as wrecked.

I'd go with winged DPs w/ lash. Nothing else.
HQs on foot are too slow.
If they hoof around the board (when their transport was popped), they will hardly reach the thickest melee.
Then they become a liability as they are too expensive.

You know that the current edition is all about being mechanized, right? Daemon Princes are the absolute BOMB at wrecking tanks. Give him Warptime, so he hits all 5 of his attacks, and every time you charge a tank with him, you can be pretty sure it's dead. With wings, he gets there, super fast, and can even fly over the tanks to hit their rear armour. Combine it with the Mark of Nurgle, and you'll be surprised how many of his heavy weapons will just bounce off of you, especially if you're really good at rolling 5's. I know that Kharn armor pens just like a monstrous creature, BUT he doesn't make opponents waste their Autocannon shots all day long. Autocannon shots that could (if lucky, but it happens all the time) shut down your Rhinos. Not to mention the fear factor of OH CRAP ITS A FREAKING DAEMON PRINCE!

UberhAxTHC wrote:You know that the current edition is all about being mechanized, right? Daemon Princes are the absolute BOMB at wrecking tanks. Give him Warptime, so he hits all 5 of his attacks, and every time you charge a tank with him, you can be pretty sure it's dead. With wings, he gets there, super fast, and can even fly over the tanks to hit their rear armour. Combine it with the Mark of Nurgle, and you'll be surprised how many of his heavy weapons will just bounce off of you, especially if you're really good at rolling 5's. I know that Kharn armor pens just like a monstrous creature, BUT he doesn't make opponents waste their Autocannon shots all day long. Autocannon shots that could (if lucky, but it happens all the time) shut down your Rhinos. Not to mention the fear factor of OH CRAP ITS A FREAKING DAEMON PRINCE!

close combat attacks always hit rear armor anyway...

auto cannons do a better job of popping rhinos than missile launchers and a better job of stopping rhinos than lascannons...

I never thought about a winged lord in a rhino, but do you think thats is better then kharn in a raider?

CSM Land Raiders are not that good. Some lists do okay with them, but one of Kharn AND the winged Lord's virtues is being able to ride in an inexpensive Rhino, unlike Abaddon, who needs a pricy LR.

Abaddon doesn't need the landraider. You could deepstrike him and his squad in, and use a mark to keep him from scattering. This works well with objective games where you can see ahead of time where your opponent might be going, or as a way to estabilish a new extreme threat at some vital part of the board.

If i took that build I would place an objective somewhere in the middle of the board. Something to draw my oppoent to it and drop my unit on it.

ZombieJoe wrote:Abaddon doesn't need the landraider. You could deepstrike him and his squad in, and use a mark to keep him from scattering. This works well with objective games where you can see ahead of time where your opponent might be going, or as a way to estabilish a new extreme threat at some vital part of the board.

You could do this but I don't see it working out very well.
The only units he can deepstrike in with will be Terminators, which aren't Fearless. Hit them with enough attacks to force a failed LD check and big A runs off the board.
Even without the LD issues, you're spending at least 365 points to deepstrike Abaddon in. For the same price, I could field 2 Winged DPs and a Termicide squad, all more useful then a 3 naked Terminators and Abaddon.
Remember he can't assault when he lands so you are left with either shooting his fairly useless weapon or running. Now your opponent has an entire turn to plan how to handle this guy and his squad and chances are he's either going to blast them out of the water with AP2 weapons or simply ignore him as the entire squad is only moving 6" a turn. Worst case scenario for the opponent, he feeds you a bait squad to keep you busy.

What about kharn? I personally think he is better than the prince and a lord with wing in rhino, when he is placed in a raider.

Any thrpights?



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Whoops my bad ingore that last post...


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Well we narrowed it down to Kharn, some type of prince, or a lord. (I guessing abbadon is out of the question). So for the list I run which I have found the last 3 games at 2000pts as tabling the best of people at my shop is:

Just a overlook:

Kharn

4 zerker squads, 2 in rhinos, 2 in raiders. (Kharn in one raider)

2 Chosen squads in rhinos with 4 meltas

1 havoc squad with 4 meltas in a rhino

2 Raiders, EA

I just don't see ONE deamon prince being as effective as kharn in a raider, he can wreak tanks just as easy and is more hidden in the raider, I know the prince has cover but just seems like kharn with get the job done safer. If I could figure out a way to get 2 princes in there and still keep a good amount of tanks I think that would be just as good or not better but....

Any throughts?

CannedKhorne wrote:
I just don't see ONE deamon prince being as effective as kharn in a raider, he can wreak tanks just as easy and is more hidden in the raider, I know the prince has cover but just seems like kharn with get the job done safer. If I could figure out a way to get 2 princes in there and still keep a good amount of tanks I think that would be just as good or not better but....

The advantage of a Daemon Prince is that its yet another target for your opponent to split fire with.

Taking a Daemon Prince may mean that he dies before he can get to his target, however all that firepower directed at the Daemon Prince would have been directed at your Rhinos and/or Land Raiders instead and now they can get to their targets easier and with more bodies which means more killing.

In the end, I think a Daemon Prince would be better but Kharn is a good option as long as you get used to keeping him away from things that can insta-kill him.

EDIT: If you're looking at max killing power against MEQs. Kharn is going to average 4.2 kills on the charge/2.8 after the charge. A Khorne Daemon Prince will kill 3.3 kills on the charge/2.8 after the charge. A Warptime Daemon Prince will kill 4 on the charge/3.2 after the charge.

[quote

]Even without the LD issues, you're spending at least 365 points to deepstrike Abaddon in. For the same price, I could field 2 Winged DPs and a Termicide squad, all more useful then a 3 naked Terminators and Abaddon.
Remember he can't assault when he lands so you are left with either shooting his fairly useless weapon or running. Now your opponent has an entire turn to plan how to handle this guy and his squad and chances are he's either going to blast them out of the water with AP2 weapons or simply ignore him as the entire squad is only moving 6" a turn. Worst case scenario for the opponent, he feeds you a bait squad to keep you busy.

So, why can't Abbadon go on foot? A squad of 20 CSM with MoK and abbadon can certainly survive running across the field for a turn or two. He gets there at the same time (or faster) as deepstriking, and he gets there hundreds of points cheaper than taking him in a raider (assuming you're going to want to take CSM anyways).

That is also perfectly acceptible. I've personally never tried walking across but I don't see a reason you couldn't. It doesn't really matter in the long run. Cause you either pay the points for the land raider or take the risks involved with footing it or deepstriking. It's these reasons that make Abbadon more difficult to include in an army. But, he still has his place, as do all the HQ's.

@Zombiejoe

An IC loses Fearless if he joins a squad without it.

ZombieJoe wrote:

Even without the LD issues, you're spending at least 365 points to deepstrike Abaddon in. For the same price, I could field 2 Winged DPs and a Termicide squad, all more useful then a 3 naked Terminators and Abaddon.
Remember he can't assault when he lands so you are left with either shooting his fairly useless weapon or running. Now your opponent has an entire turn to plan how to handle this guy and his squad and chances are he's either going to blast them out of the water with AP2 weapons or simply ignore him as the entire squad is only moving 6" a turn. Worst case scenario for the opponent, he feeds you a bait squad to keep you busy.

Well first off, being in a unit with Abaddon makes them fearless.

No. He loses Fearless. Maybe you're thinking of Stubborn, which he doesn't have.

ZombieJoe wrote: Now yes, deepstriking them isn't really the best way to move him. It can be fun, but not as reliable as a Land Raider. Obviously the downside to a Land Raider and Abbadon mixtures is that it's really expensive. Almost 500 (or more) just for those two. Then you of course need terminators or he'll snuff it pretty quickly. So to add a unit of terminators to the mix and you got a really expensive unit. Will that unit own the face of any face to dare face it... hell yeah! That being said, you can make a deepstrike Abaddon work.

I agree with you about the LR, I disagree about DSing.

I like your tactical ideas, but the essential problem with DSing is that there's only a 50/50 chance of Abby hitting the table on turn 2. In which case the soonest he can assault anything is turn 3, but there's a very real risk that your opponent will shoot him or simply move away. He has a max 12" threat range on foot, and that's assuming there's no Difficult Terrain in the way. There is, conversely, a 50% chance that Abby will hit the table on turn 3 or later. If he arrives on turn 3, the soonest he can do anything is turn 4, and against a savvy opponent he may not get to assault anything until turn 5, which is possibly the last turn of the game. I lost a game at Adepticon thanks to Mephiston being in Reserve, and not showing up until turn 5, by which point it was too late for him to do what I needed him to in order to win the game. Abby is even more expensive and less mobile than Mepphy.

The big danger with a very expensive unit being in reserve is that they'll show up too late to do what you need them to. Especially if the game only goes five turns. I had a losing Draw against Flavius_Infernus in a league game last Tuesday because of this factor; I reserved up because I was playing mechanized with an LR against his Tau with Broadsides and Marker Lights in a Spearhead deplyment, Annihilation, with him going first. Most of my stuff didn't arrive until turn 3, which was too late, as the game ended on 5.

Abby costs the same as two termicide squads with triple melta PLUS a min squad of lesser daemons. If I'm investing points in DSers, those three units are much more attractive than Abby by himself. Each unit has a dedicated role it can fill the same turn it drops (tankbusting or objective-camping), and by having three of them you increase the odds that you'll get at least some of them early. This is without even getting into the costs for a bodyguard unit to accompany Abby.

Abby doesn't really allow you to dictate for course of the battle the way you describe, because a) alone he's not mobile enough, and b) with a bodyguard + land raider, he's so expensive that you don't have that much more of an army with the rest of your points. I'm not saying he never works. He can be nasty, mostly used in a LR with either Berserkers or a cheap Terminator squad with combi-meltas to help them open tanks, so they can hopefully get the charge against Hammernators rather than being charged by them.

ps. 2000 points min. Anything less and I think you'll shoot yourself in the foot with that heavy of a point sink.

Good call.

Ailaros wrote:So, why can't Abbadon go on foot? A squad of 20 CSM with MoK and abbadon can certainly survive running across the field for a turn or two. He gets there at the same time (or faster) as deepstriking, and he gets there hundreds of points cheaper than taking him in a raider (assuming you're going to want to take CSM anyways).

This isn't a bad thought. Actually it's better than DSing, because it guarantees you have a killer unit threatening/occupying the middle of the field on turn 2, without the risks of Reserve rolls.

40kEnthusiast, down in Atlanta, has an anti-mech-IG list which uses him similarly to this. CSM are the wrong bodyguard squad though, since they're not Fearless. You want Plague Marines, so you don't give a damn when someone assaults the regular dudes and you lose combat for a round or two, b) so you're immune to Psyker Battle Squads, and c) so you have Blight Grenades, which mitigate the pain of giving up the charge to units like Thunderwolves or enemy Assault Terminators.

So...

Abbadon
Khorne berzerkers (20), champ with PF

710 points of unswervingly maddening carnage.

It rarely comes up to be honeset with you. I give them all marks anyway. But, now you got me thinking about it. Marks make them fearless doesn't it?

I agree that DS's is not the best option since you do run the very real risk that you'll not see that squad till the end of the game. But DS also has some major advantages. Its an art really, to know how and when to deepstrike and how to gain the max benefits out of it. Honestly its not for everyone. I've seen some realy good players own the world with and see it also cost other players the whole game. My personal hangup is the reserve roll. Its just too possible to never see that unit till it nolonger matters.

In addition to Blight Grenades, Plagues give you meltaguns.

They're also four times as durable as Berserkers against S3 shooting, three times as durable against S4, and still more than twice as durable against S5 and S6 shooting.

It's important to be able to shrug off antiinfantry firepower for a big slow unit running up the middle of the field where pretty much all your opponent's guns can hit them.

Ailaros wrote:So...

Abbadon
Khorne berzerkers (20), champ with PF

710 points of unswervingly maddening carnage.

Personally I think you'd lose far too many of that 710pts worth of models for it to be effective IMHO. Plague Marines could whether the inevitable onslaught of firepower better, whereas I feel your zerkers would be too vulnerable and reliant on the charge.
Furthermore, for these points you could get him in a Land Raider, which IMHO is the best option; it's main drawback being expense and eggs in one basket, but that's something you'd still suffer from with the 20-zerker horde.

I dunno, on paper it sounds good but personally I don't think it would work...

ZombieJoe wrote:It rarely comes up to be honeset with you. I give them all marks anyway. But, now you got me thinking about it. Marks make them fearless doesn't it?

No, none of the Icons do. You keep saying "marks", like it's the 3rd edition codex. In that codex they were Marks, and they did make the squad Fearless.

ZombieJoe wrote:It I agree that DS's is not the best option since you do run the very real risk that you'll not see that squad till the end of the game. But DS also has some major advantages. Its an art really, to know how and when to deepstrike and how to gain the max benefits out of it. Honestly its not for everyone. I've seen some realy good players own the world with and see it also cost other players the whole game. My personal hangup is the reserve roll. Its just too possible to never see that unit till it nolonger matters.

I love deep striking and do it pretty much every game with my CSM. It's just a question of how many points to dedicate to that task, split up how many ways. If you've got one big deathstar unit, you're just asking to be screwed by the Reserve rolls in a significant percentage of your games. Reserve rolls don't really care how good a player you are.

I completely agree.

I'm going to have to relook at my dex and see the mark/icon rules. I've been of CSM for about a year, playing my new Tyranids. Just recently hoppped back on.

Plague marines are more survivable, but they do less damage. MUCH less damage.

I mean, compare a group of 9 Tac marines (all with bolters), and a sarge with a fist to 6 plague marines with a melta and a fist to 7 berzerkers with a fist. Assume the CSM charging out in the open. This gives 30 bolter shots to the marines.

30 bolter shots put down 1 PM or 3 berzerkers. 5 PMs charge for one dead PM and 2 dead marines. 4 KB's charge for 5 dead marines to one dead berzerker. The next turn it's 7:3 for the PM while its 3:2 for the berzerkers. The next turn, the berzerkers win, while the plague marines, after many turns, ultimately lose to the tac squad.

It doesn't matter if you show up with fewer guys if you do more damage once you arrive. It's sort of the same reason why meltaguns are better weapons than lascannons.


Yes, including Abbadon naturally changes things here, but the fact remains that the berzerkers are at least as good as PM's for this role. If ALL you want is the most survivable sabot for Abbadon, then sure, PMs will probably do that better for you. With the berzerkers, you can still get him there safely, and they'll actually do something to help Abbadon once he arrives.

Mannahnin wrote: CSM are the wrong bodyguard squad though, since they're not Fearless. You want Plague Marines, so you don't give a damn when someone assaults the regular dudes and you lose combat for a round or two, b) so you're immune to Psyker Battle Squads, and c) so you have Blight Grenades, which mitigate the pain of giving up the charge to units like Thunderwolves or enemy Assault Terminators.

I would say the 20 man squad might be viable with Plague Marines and Abaddon. Due to their increased durability (and point cost) you'd probably go with 14 as that would be the same rough price as 20 CSMs. Armed with Meltaguns and a hidden Power Fist and the entire squad plus Abaddon would cost you 657 points.

Thats a big chunk of your army and while it would be tough to break using small arms or even things like Autocannons, Battle Cannons or Plasma won't care about the added T or FnP and have a field day splatting all over your army.

All in all, there is a good reason that the top HQs for Chaos have Wings as standard, that added mobility is needed and its something that Abaddon can't get outside of a Land Raider.