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Forgeworld rules are 100% official in the same way that Planetstrike, Apocalypse, Spearhead and Cities of Death are.

You cannot expect to use any of the above without prior arrangement with your opponent. Saying that bringing a Forgeworld unit without your opponents consent, is like saying that bringing a Spearhead or Apocalypse formation is ok too.

All newer Forgeworld books carry the "Warhammer 40.000 Expansion" logo on the front, and the last time Forgeworld addressed their own legality, they equated themselves to an expansion like Cities of Death.

And THAT is the bottom line, gentlemen.

Steelmage99 wrote:
And THAT is the bottom line, gentlemen.

YMMV, IMHO, To each their own, etc.

No, what I said is a complete 100% carved-in-stone irrefutable certainty.

All newer Forgeworld books carry the expansion logo, and the last time Forgeworld addressed their own legality, they equated themselves to an expansion like Cities of Death.

Kanluwen wrote:... there's a stigmata amongst the community at large that FW units are "imbalanced"...

Kanluwen, I like what you wrote, but this made me LOL a little bit. 'Stigmata'? I'm pretty sure you meant stigma, unless you think the gaming community is showing the wounds of Jesus because of forgeworld somehow?

That was kind of a funny typo there.

Stigma: a mark of disgrace or infamy; a stain or reproach, as on one's reputation.

Stigmata: bodily marks, sores, or sensations of pain in locations corresponding to the crucifixion wounds of Jesus.

Sorry to be pedantic here, just funny.

Augustus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:... there's a stigmata amongst the community at large that FW units are "imbalanced"...

Kanluwen, I like what you wrote, but this made me LOL a little bit. 'Stigmata'? I'm pretty sure you meant stigma, unless you think the gaming community is showing the wounds of Jesus because of forgeworld somehow?

That was kind of a funny typo there.

Stigma: a mark of disgrace or infamy; a stain or reproach, as on one's reputation.

Stigmata: bodily marks, sores, or sensations of pain in locations corresponding to the crucifixion wounds of Jesus.

Sorry to be pedantic here, just funny.

Yeah, that's why I need to stop speed typing I think.

But yes. Clearly it's because of the wounds of Jesus!

Oh I do it all the time! I think you're on the spot with the forgeworld stuff.

The fact that you are even having the conversation and splitting hair on the issue of FW should be enough to make you say "???"



As to the issue of the haves and have nots? I want to know what kind of crack one smokes to think that if I buy a $2,000.00 army that I won't be able to play it in ANY setting? That crap about even having that discussion should be enough to make the scales fall from your eyes, and HAVE the stigmata to begin with.

Short of someone telling you that you can or can't play with a 40K army in of all things... a 40K game? Uh...

FW has more lickies and chewies then the average run of the mill plastic troops. They have conversion kits, resin models, and extensive additional equipment and addentums to the 40K universe. They came about partially because GW finally figured out that THEY wanted control of there resin products, partially to fill the void of not having the additional units that were being cranked out in the hayday of the IG, with the balls out summer campaigns and added vehicle varient mods that were prevelent in all of the cool kid Black Library novels.

As with the same issues of GW's old decrepid business models, they are now the hamstring that keeps people buying 1-500.00 models that OTHER clowns will actually tell that they can't play with in the game that they are made for.

Loves me some 40K vehicles, too bad you can't play a real game with them, though....



Hookers and conversation comes to mind here, gents. (Best to look, but never touch.)



Muh ha ha ha ha!!!!

To make cool Manticore turrets.

Balance wrote:So if the Games Wokshop in Potomac Mills Mall started writing and releasing their own Codex: Chaos Squats that would be 100% legal? .

NOT in the least. Didn't come from the design team at GW HQ it ain't worth SQUAT!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if the folks there wrote it, printed it, released it, they'd lose their jobs and be sued by GW for copyright & trademark infringement....Just because you work for GW, doesn't give you the right to do what you want! Geez!

Grot 6 wrote: I want to know what kind of crack one smokes to think that if I buy a $2,000.00 army that I won't be able to play it in ANY setting?

I want to know what kind of crack one smokes to think that...the price of ones army have ANY relevance in determining the rules/legality of the Imperial Armour Expansion.


Also keep in mind that you are not prevented from using the Imperial Armour Expansion. You are simply required to plan it out with your opponent beforehand, just as you would with Spearhead, Planetstrike, Cities of Death and Apocalypse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

krazynadechukr wrote:


NOT in the least. Didn't come from the design team at GW HQ it ain't worth SQUAT!

PS. We might be in agreement here. I just couldn't tell which side of the fence you are on.

You do of course realize that Imperial Armour does not come from the design team at GW HQ, right?

I want to know what kind of crack one smokes that makes them take toy soldiers, model tanks and little resin men from mars this bloody seriously

In general, if you use FW models as "counts as" for GW units, you're not going to run into any problems. If you start using rules that aren't in the main codex and only in IA books, you're going to get some sour grapes from opponents.

However, they do allow you to have models and units that stand apart from normal GW minis, either by decoration or simply the model itself. As for FW quality, I've bought several products and have never had a bad casting or excessive flash of any kind. The one issue I had was a bent sword that was easily fixed with hot and cold water.

Grot 6 wrote:I want to know what kind of crack one smokes to think that if I buy a $2,000.00 army that I won't be able to play it in ANY setting?

Well, let's see.

So you buy a Forge World army. That is, to say, an army consisting almost entirely of Forge World components for base troops, etc.

So, looking at what's available in kits.

Eldar, 2 Imperial Guard armies, Death Guard, World Eaters, Space Marines.

All of which have Codices compatable with the current edition of 40k.

So....really? What is the issue? You can't use your Elysians or DK as normal IG? Why not? They have all the weapon options and set up. Here's a codex. Be surprised.

But it's not the same! They're not Krieg unless the rules were written specifically for Krieg! I don't care if Imperial Guard are already one of the best (if not THE best) codices in the game, I'm not fielding "counts-as" Cadians!



Anyway, in my opinion:

So you buy a Forge World army. That is, to say, an army consisting almost entirely of Forge World components for base troops, etc.

Then you do so knowing full well that no one is obligated to let you use the IA rules for that army. Spending $2000 compared to my $800-1000 on an army doesn't give you the right to browbeat me into playing with rules developed outside the core game that could potentially skew the balance in your favor (or mine).

I'm not saying I would turn down a game with a guy using DKoK...if I knew beforehand that he was using them and it was a friendly game. But if you show up with a full DKoK army just expecting me to play with you because you spent a lot of money on them, then that's a dick move if you ask me.

Grot 6 wrote:As to the issue of the haves and have nots? I want to know what kind of crack one smokes to think that if I buy a $2,000.00 army that I won't be able to play it in ANY setting?

What kind of crack are you smoking to think you spending 2000.00 gives you a right to anything? Since when does the amount you spend mean anything? Does spending 10,000$ let you have automatic re-rolls on missed hits? If you paid 20,000$ should we just get the hell out of your way and let you pick up the first place trophy without playing a game? Does it work in reverse? If you buy from neal at 20% discount, is your army 20% crappier? Is this a justification for Australians paying 50% more for models, because they get perks for spending more?

Your choice to spend the 2k. You get what you paid for: a bunch of little resin toy soldiers that you get to paint up.

And... Your all missing the point here.

I think my conversation point was probiblty worded wrong, but lets regroup it to the conversation gents.


WE are collectivly talking about a run of the mill no !@#$, no frills Warhammer 40K army. I'll take IG here for the sake of argument, but ifd you want to take Orks, Tau, or whatever, thats prefectly fine.

Stay with the thought here.


Forgeworld doesn't make any other army for, say Nepoleonics, or WW2, ONLY Warhammer Fantasy and 40K.

The games for GW. That your splitting hairs as to use or not use, based on some sort of idea that those particular armies for 40K made by forgeworld are anything different then any other IG army out there. We can split other hairs about rules composition, unit make up or whatever, but the main point of my post here is that we're talking about an IG army that for all intensive purposes only difference here is a pricetag. An IG army is an IG army- There are millions of regiments in the galaxy, but you can't use so and so, because they are made from Forge World? As for supplimental? Supplimental to what? Is there another game or use for these particular resin soldiers that is different then the main game?

There is no different way to play 40K, if you use these guys? or is there?

They may have some bells and whistles, but look over at the Catachens, the Elesians Drop Troops, or even the Rough riders, ( Who I may add HAD straight leg horse and rider cav back in the days of the Necromundan 8th plastic and metal, with YMMV paint )
Penal legions? Human Bombs? Even if you so chose you could take your squats, give them the IG rules and run them As is.

The idea that your going to sell an army for expensive prices, then tell your customers that they have or have no obligation to play in accordance with the game that the product was designed for should make you physically Ill.

Your telling me then that GW is presenting you with a defective product, and that people who buy the said product to PLAY the 40K game are under false representation that they can play the game as is with the forgeworld guys.

Am I the only one that sees the genuine hypocracy in that thought process?


Once again, I didn't imply that price had anything to do with or without, only that the price should give one pause to even buy these guys if there is that much contention as to thier use. And to see more then one other poster say something to the effect tells me that I misconstrued the point at hand-

That we're talking about Forgeworld product made, specificly for 40K, that are left in a grey area as to thier purpose.


sorry for the mispost of the point.

The problem is, no matter how much people say "It's all one company." , FW is actually still very separate from the rest of GW. The organization splits them off from the corporate tree right at the top. They don't answer to a lot of people. FW was not organized to produce models for 40k, just the opposite. In the beginning they were not supposed to be making any models for use with the regular game. They made cool garage kits. It was retired or soon to retire GW guys. No one else would have been given that type of freedom.

They produce things now that work much better with regular 40k, and the GW studio has stolen a lot of things from them for various codices. But they still have a ways to go before FW will be totally compatable with 40k.

The idea that your going to sell an army for expensive prices, then tell your customers that they have or have no obligation to play in accordance with the game that the product was designed for should make you physically Ill.

Why? Your choice to buy them or not. And as many, many people have stated, they don't have trouble finding games. You're just upset because it's not some ironclad guarantee.

It's not a defective product, you know the rules going in. If you choose to buy the stuff anyway, that's up to you. People buy titans all the time and hardly ever get to use them. Reavers can be horribly overpowered even in Apocalypse games. We still buy them, because we want them, want to model them, want to paint them.

Grot 6 wrote:


WE are collectivly talking about a run of the mill no !@#$, no frills Warhammer 40K army.

Are we really? An armylist presented in an expansion is not a run of the mill no !@#$, no frills Warhammer 40K army. An armylist/unit presented in an expansion is intended for use in that expansion and not in "regular" games of 40K.

Forgeworld doesn't make any other army for, say Nepoleonics, or WW2, ONLY Warhammer Fantasy and 40K. The games for GW. That your splitting hairs as to use or not use, based on some sort of idea that those particular armies for 40K made by forgeworld are anything different then any other IG army out there.

Apocalypse units, Spearhead formations and Planetstrike rules are also made specifically for use with the 40K rules-set. That does not make them usable without prior agreement with your opponent. So it is with the Imperial Armour Expansion.

We can split other hairs about rules composition, unit make up or whatever, but the main point of my post here is that we're talking about an IG army that for all intensive purposes only difference here is a pricetag.

Aside from the fact that these particular IG armies are made for use with the Imperial Armour Expansion, you mean?

An IG army is an IG army-

It most certainly is not.

There are millions of regiments in the galaxy,

Fluff justifications only make you look silly.

but you can't use so and so, because they are made from Forge World?

No, you cannot use them without player consent because they are part of an expansion like Cities of Death, Apocalypse, Planetstrike and Spearhead.

As for supplimental? Supplimental to what?

Are you being deliberately obtuse? They are a supplement (read: expansion) to Warhammer 40k, of course.

Is there another game or use for these particular resin soldiers that is different then the main game?

Yes. That would be games played with expansions. A totally different kind of game than a regular game of 40K.

There is no different way to play 40K, if you use these guys? or is there?

I don't know what you are saying here.

They may have some bells and whistles, but look over at the Catachens, the Elesians Drop Troops, or even the Rough riders, ( Who I may add HAD straight leg horse and rider cav back in the days of the Necromundan 8th plastic and metal, with YMMV paint )
Penal legions? Human Bombs? Even if you so chose you could take your squats, give them the IG rules and run them As is.

What is the point of what you are saying here?

The idea that your going to sell an army for expensive prices, then tell your customers that they have or have no obligation to play in accordance with the game that the product was designed for should make you physically Ill.

Unless of course they introduce the concept of expansion which......what do you know....they have.

Your telling me then that GW is presenting you with a defective product, and that people who buy the said product to PLAY the 40K game are under false representation that they can play the game as is with the forgeworld guys.

The concept that the product is defective and that people are being lied to is simply laughable. Some people just deliberately misunderstand and misrepresent.....much like you just did.

Am I the only one that sees the genuine hypocracy in that thought process?

Am I the only one that see the failure in that thought process?

Once again, I didn't imply that price had anything to do with or without, only that the price should give one pause to even buy these guys if there is that much contention as to thier use.

Steelmage99 wrote: A whole bunch of stuff

Take it down a notch there chief. One thing is to quote something, its quite another to be a jackass and spout off at the hole on every little tid.

If you going to say something, just say it. You didn't make any kind of serious points of discussion there, all you ended up doing is pretty much saying the same thing you just did in the other post.


As to the full thought process that you are going with there? I don't get your whole "Well... Forgeworld made it, but you can't use it in the game." stance.


I must have missed the Forgeworld WW2 stuff, somewhere. You know, the stuff they made for the 3d hand market that you can use in other games? Oh.. wait. They make GW stuff. FOR 40K and Fantasy.


And if your going to cut and paste? Please do the curtesy of at least posting out the full no BS thought that I originally posted. It would then give you something to discuss instead of just a wall of text.

you get an A for effort, though. Thanks.... really.

You want a serious point of discussion, Grot 6?

How about this; Imperial Armour is an expansion just like Planetstrike, Cities of Death, Spearhead and Apocalypse.

Do you wish to refute this?

mikhaila wrote:The problem is, no matter how much people say "It's all one company." , FW is actually still very separate from the rest of GW. The organization splits them off from the corporate tree right at the top. They don't answer to a lot of people. FW was not organized to produce models for 40k, just the opposite. In the beginning they were not supposed to be making any models for use with the regular game. They made cool garage kits. It was retired or soon to retire GW guys. No one else would have been given that type of freedom.

They produce things now that work much better with regular 40k, and the GW studio has stolen a lot of things from them for various codices. But they still have a ways to go before FW will be totally compatable with 40k.

The idea that your going to sell an army for expensive prices, then tell your customers that they have or have no obligation to play in accordance with the game that the product was designed for should make you physically Ill.

Why? Your choice to buy them or not. And as many, many people have stated, they don't have trouble finding games. You're just upset because it's not some ironclad guarantee.

It's not a defective product, you know the rules going in. If you choose to buy the stuff anyway, that's up to you. People buy titans all the time and hardly ever get to use them. Reavers can be horribly overpowered even in Apocalypse games. We still buy them, because we want them, want to model them, want to paint them.

I think I'm just upset that they want to lie and tell you that your buying something that you can play a game with, and then try to justify the flim flam with a 200% markup. Then to hear tell people actually want to split hairs over (I/E rules lawyer) thier interpritation of decision making process of use or non use. I'm already !@#$ed off about the whole thing of all of the other crazyness, why not add another cherry on the top?

Too bad too, would have loved to buy me a few of those Grot tanks, and some of those variant Ork truck and tanks.

I say the products defective, because you can buy it- but you can't play it. People are out there that would actually give you static to bring your regiment to the table, and tell you, "Oh, you can't play that unit here. Thats not a real IG unit..." I'd like to see that happen, LOL. Especially when we're being mass marketed the lie and that "The Hobby" is all about fun... How exactly does that work when the products made for THAT particular game again? As for Ironclad, you have a point, seeing as I keep forgetting that everything comes down to a D6 roll.

As a IG player, I see it as a matter of self interest to actually WANT to buy something, not just have some cat come across as a total Rules Joke and try to finangle a win out of not letting you play your army.
That GW would put themselves out on a limb like that, and then start sawing it off while sitting on it is almost as equally laughable. For the price of this stuff? I WANT an iron clad guarantee. I buy this stuff, I am not only owed a clear cut explination, I'm owed it as a matter of courtesy. If not, I might as well throw a bunch of rocks down on the table and make up my own rules.

*oops

I think I'm just upset that they want to lie and tell you that your buying something that you can play a game with, and then try to justify the flim flam with a 200% markup. Then to hear tell people actually want to split hairs over (I/E rules lawyer) thier interpritation of decision making process of use or non use.

I'm not sure why you think this. It's not the case that FW claims to be completely legal and always useable. I don't see the basis for where you claim that they lie about it. The stuff has always been very limited in production, and not readily available. I'ts not like you can just buy it in a store.

Do you actually own any FW? Or is this just 'finding another reason to be angry'

Too bad too, would have loved to buy me a few of those Grot tanks, and some of those variant Ork truck and tanks.

Great models. I ran two big tracks, a megadread, and a killkrusha at the Colonial GT. Used them as trucks, deffdread, and battlewagon. I use my grot tanks a lot as buggies.
In non tournament games I run them using the IA rules, and I've never had a problem using them, but always ask first.

For the price of this stuff? I WANT an iron clad guarantee. I buy this stuff, I am not only owed a clear cut explination, I'm owed it as a matter of courtesy.

Well, then you have an answer. I suggest you don't buy FW. Because you're not getting a guarantee on getting to play with Toy Soldiers.)

So once I was talking to a GW Store manager about how cool DKoK are and he said GW USA even asked them for the molds so they could make them over here but they refused. What's up with that? Forge World acts like the actual Adpetus Mechanicus: jealously guarding their technology?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:So once I was talking to a GW Store manager about how cool DKoK are and he said GW USA even asked them for the molds so they could make them over here but they refused. What's up with that? Forge World acts like the actual Adpetus Mechanicus: jealously guarding their technology?

Probably because of the big Made in China sticker that slapped on the FW zip bags that I've been seeing on all my recent orders....

Snarky wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:So once I was talking to a GW Store manager about how cool DKoK are and he said GW USA even asked them for the molds so they could make them over here but they refused. What's up with that? Forge World acts like the actual Adpetus Mechanicus: jealously guarding their technology?

Probably because of the big Made in China sticker that slapped on the FW zip bags that I've been seeing on all my recent orders....

Seriously?

Not joking here, my Elysian Drop troops special weapons and Krieg heavy mortar team both had Made in China under the item code on the zip bag.

mikhaila wrote:
Great models. I ran two big tracks, a megadread, and a killkrusha at the Colonial GT. Used them as trucks, deffdread, and battlewagon. I use my grot tanks a lot as buggies.
In non tournament games I run them using the IA rules, and I've never had a problem using them, but always ask first.
[i]

I am unsure why people are so unwilling to accept this. Ask permission!!!! Almost every forgeworld model can be used as a core codex unit even if the weapon options don't match. Sometimes that squiggoth is a squiggoth, sometime he is a battlewagon!

Some people seem unwilling to ask permission. Someone unwilling to ask permission seems like the problem, not the rules that require you to ask.

WTH? I thought all GW stuff was made in UK. That's why it costs a bazillion dollars.

some of it is, I honestly haven't seen a difference between the Made in China casts and the UK casts, except maybe a little less loose flash in the Chinese casts and better quality control than the UK casts.

I think they had moved some casting of the more popular ranges over to China (the ones that sell more and are smaller are more likely, as I've noticed that most of my Krieg infantry squads are casted in China, while things like my Vulture and Tank kits are still cast in the UK). They certainly still do cast things in the UK however.