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Experimental rules are that, experimental. Placeholder rules used until the model is properly tested.

You'll find the official FW rules in the Imperial Armor books.

Wrong. There's no such thing as a "GW codex game". That's simply a pick-up game.

I dont understand , if play with random people in a battle bunker for example, all GW codice units and army books , and we have same point cost, all legal force organization ,
no count as models , all wysiwyg , there is no reason why i wouldnt be able to play right? the only reason possible would be if someone "didnt feel like it" ?

Putting it bluntly: if you're doing a pick-up game with someone and it wasn't arranged ahead of time--don't expect to be able to use FW rules.
There's kind of a 'gentleman's agreement' that if you're going to use FW lists or units, that it's best to warn your opponent ahead of time.

Why?

LunaHound wrote:

Wrong. There's no such thing as a "GW codex game". That's simply a pick-up game.

I dont understand , if play with random people in a battle bunker for example, all GW codice units and army books , and we have same point cost, all legal force organization ,
no count as models , all wysiwyg , there is no reason why i wouldnt be able to play right? the only reason possible would be if someone "didnt feel like it" ?

If you play with random people in a battle bunker, with all GW codex units and army books, same points costs, etc--it's still what is termed as a "pick-up game".

If it's not an organized tournament setting or part of an overarching "league" with organizational methods in place: it's a pick-up game.

Putting it bluntly: if you're doing a pick-up game with someone and it wasn't arranged ahead of time--don't expect to be able to use FW rules.
There's kind of a 'gentleman's agreement' that if you're going to use FW lists or units, that it's best to warn your opponent ahead of time.

Why?

Because. That's just kind of the way things have evolved.

1/3 of the entries in my FW IA book for Krieg tell me to consult and/or use my GW Imp Guard codex in conjunction with my IA list....so FW list is legal because MANY units use reg guard entries.....

Anyway, when I run into folks that are oppossed to (or anal) FW, I have a GW Imp Guard Codex list for my DKOK ready....

funny thing is, the ONLY unit I can not use is my hades drill....2k list either way, 102 minis, 6 vehicles, 6 heavy weapons....Just GW list I run 'em as veterans with grenadier option...The engineers become ratling snipers....etc....

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Wrong. There's no such thing as a "GW codex game". That's simply a pick-up game.

I dont understand , if play with random people in a battle bunker for example, all GW codice units and army books , and we have same point cost, all legal force organization ,
no count as models , all wysiwyg , there is no reason why i wouldnt be able to play right? the only reason possible would be if someone "didnt feel like it" ?

If you play with random people in a battle bunker, with all GW codex units and army books, same points costs, etc--it's still what is termed as a "pick-up game".

If it's not an organized tournament setting or part of an overarching "league" with organizational methods in place: it's a pick-up game.

Putting it bluntly: if you're doing a pick-up game with someone and it wasn't arranged ahead of time--don't expect to be able to use FW rules.
There's kind of a 'gentleman's agreement' that if you're going to use FW lists or units, that it's best to warn your opponent ahead of time.

Why?

Because. That's just kind of the way things have evolved.

I was really looking for a definite answer to those 2 questions i asked.
Its why people still keep asking these questions.

And I gave you a 'definitive answer'.

If you want to use FW stuff, the best way to do it is not just to show up and drop down FW stuff and demand to get to play it.

Kanluwen wrote:And I gave you a 'definitive answer'.

If you want to use FW stuff, the best way to do it is not just to show up and drop down FW stuff and demand to get to play it.

Would you use the same statement if its GW stuff?

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And I gave you a 'definitive answer'.

If you want to use FW stuff, the best way to do it is not just to show up and drop down FW stuff and demand to get to play it.

Would you use the same statement if its GW stuff?

In many cases?

Yeah, I would.

If you want to play a game: you're not going to get games by showing up and dropping down your army and demand a game.

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And I gave you a 'definitive answer'.

If you want to use FW stuff, the best way to do it is not just to show up and drop down FW stuff and demand to get to play it.

Would you use the same statement if its GW stuff?

In many cases?

Yeah, I would.

If you want to play a game: you're not going to get games by showing up and dropping down your army and demand a game.

Thanks anyways , as of now im positive we are discussing 2 completely different things.

To put you in awe of their awesome example of their models online, Roll 2D6 and unless they roll snake eyes, they send you a disheartening chunk of resin from which you have to carve the character out yourself.

Kanluwen wrote:The reason why tournament organisers don't allow FW units and FW rules is simply because there's a stigmata amongst the community at large that FW units are "imbalanced".

There's, of course, some that are. But you don't see them disallowing parts of the Space Wolf Codex for that same reason. FW units require an outlay of money to get the knowledge of which is OP and which are not. It's easier to put a blanket ban in place than spend the time and money to do the research.

I personally only own about 1/2 the IA books. Average guy walking into a tournament owns none. This is a big hurdle for allowing FW rules and units indiscriminatly in tournaments. Grot battle tanks are fairly balanced. But when you get 30 seconds to read their rules in game 3 of a tournament, it's going to throw you off your game, trying to figure out what I can do with them, and how to fight them. Not fair to my opponent if I spring it on him. Still disconcerting if you know that some FW might show up at a tournament, and you don't own the books.

If we allow any FW in a tourament, one requirement is that you own and bring the book along.


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LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And I gave you a 'definitive answer'.

If you want to use FW stuff, the best way to do it is not just to show up and drop down FW stuff and demand to get to play it.

Would you use the same statement if its GW stuff?

If I understand the question correctly, then No, it's not the same statement if it's GW stuff. Showing up with a legal codex army is fundamentally different from an IA army, or FW units in a codex army.

Thank you Mikhaila

There have been no notes that Forgeworld units require opponents permission since the first book, and the Apocalypse books. But that's only reasonable since Apocalypse itself is opponents permission, being an expansion to the standard rules.

The issue with Forgeworld units is they have the 'superheavy stigma'. Too many people are still under the assumption that when you say you'll bring a Forgeworld unit, you're going to try to sneak a Thunderhawk into a standard game or something.

What people need to realize is that Forgeworlds 'standard' units are not only mostly (with a few exceptions - Land Raider Achilles, Lucias Patter drop pods, Cestus Assault Ram) okay to use, but balanced in favor of the opponent. They're generally overpriced or extremely situational that they're better off in fluff missions in campaigns.

Also, the whole sneaking superheavies into normal games could never have happened anyway. Superheavy vehicles required a separate detachment, which mean the game had to be over 2000 points. Those superheavies were still overpriced for what they did as well.

Forgeworld units on a whole are not unbalanced, at least not in favor of the person using them. They're mostly fluffy, situational units that add a bit of flavour to pick up games. A few units push it, but they're never totally broken. As said earlier, look at some vehicles that started as Forgeworld and went to the standard codex, their points values and what they did. The Hydra? The Leman Russ Executioner? Gw make far more broken rules than Forgeworld in the normal codices.

-Loki- wrote:. The Hydra? The Leman Russ Executioner? Gw make far more broken rules than Forgeworld in the normal codices.

you mean putting an AA tank in a Codex and not giving it ANY AA-based rules (an no skimmers don't count). Frankly the Lucius Dreadnought Drop Pod is fine, it's just the hideous rules in the Blood Angels Codex that make it broken.

I just think FW is here to give us REALLY good quality models for the same price as gw. Yes. GW really costs a little too much now. Sad.... BUT Happy for me since i am only interested in FW anyways.

Ghiest1 wrote:You know, honestly if you paid your hard earned money for it

I'm not obligated to let you use your expensive toys. Spending more money than I do on the hobby doesn't give you special rights.

We allow FW stuff as long as you clear it with the TO BEFORE the tournament and own the book

The main isssue is crap like dreadnought drop pods or deathwind drop pods (basically any of their drop pods) which are horribly untested

Most of the other stuff is usually fairly underpowered. Also, statistically speaking very few play tournaments and if you wanna use FW stuff in normal games then all you need are opponents who dont flip out

johnnyrumour wrote:

-Loki- wrote:. The Hydra? The Leman Russ Executioner? Gw make far more broken rules than Forgeworld in the normal codices.

you mean putting an AA tank in a Codex and not giving it ANY AA-based rules (an no skimmers don't count). Frankly the Lucius Dreadnought Drop Pod is fine, it's just the hideous rules in the Blood Angels Codex that make it broken.

Well, did we really need AA rules in a game that has no flyers? Nothing in normal 40k needs or has the AA rule.

Necroagogo wrote:

Grimtuff wrote: I can count on one hand the FW units I would consider overpowered (Chemical Mortars, Lucius pattern Drop Pods, Lucius Pattern Dreadnought pods.)

Land Raider Achilles?

Is that in a published book yet? I thought it was still in the playtesting stage so *can* be toned down before it hits the books. So i'm still only on 1 hand's worth of stuff.

I find the long-running debate over whether FW rules are allowable without your opponent's permission very interesting and entertaining. In general, most (most) people's opinions seem to depend on what side of the pond you're on. Most folks from the UK seem to be of the opinion that they do not need permission, most (most) folks from the US would argue otherwise.

I guess I've never viewed FW casting as being sub-standard, and I own a number of them. Certainly they seem far better the the fine cast crap that GW is pushing at the moment.

*Looks at watch*

Yep, about time for this discussion again.

*Looks for pictures of Jennifer Lopez in a thong while singing "I like big butts"*

Grimtuff wrote:

Necroagogo wrote:

Grimtuff wrote: I can count on one hand the FW units I would consider overpowered (Chemical Mortars, Lucius pattern Drop Pods, Lucius Pattern Dreadnought pods.)

Land Raider Achilles?

Is that in a published book yet?

Badab Wars Vol. 2 iirc. Disgustingly cheap too.

A good portion of FW models are super heavies and flyers. Normal armies can't deal with those, so it is unfair to use them.
That's why those are considered now Apocalypse units and IA books now labelled "40k supplement" IIRC, to distinguish them from rules for normal games.

I agree that anything with structure points should only be used in games over 2k....

That being said, if I were to play someone in a 2500 pt game, and he did NOT have any super heavies, I would say to him "In order for me to play a 2,500 pt game I'll be using my stormlord, ok?"

As far as a 2k game, my Krieg army doesn't have anything super scary in it, and I tell people all about the army I am playing. 99% of the time they say "Cool, let's play!"

So I for one don't use FW to have a super cheesy or hard army to fight. They are cool models, better detailed models, cool background, and a bit different to play than normal guard....

The whole "FW Legality" topic is interesting. I've argued it before and plan on avoiding doing so again, but it's another topic that could be settled with a simple statement, but it isn't.

The core contention seems to be that there's no unified opinion of how 'GW' FW is. It's a wholly owned subsidiary, apparently works out of the same building, and states in FW publications that stuff is generally 'legal' in 40k games. That's reasonable, but is FW 'allowed' to say that? Do they have authority outside their own realm?

If 'No' then they are no more 'official' than fan works, really.

if 'Yes', then where do we draw the line? is Bob the Redshirt an official arbiter of the rules? Most would say he is in his store but can be overruled by GW corporate and others.

Do the regional offices have any authority to make official statements on rules? I believe they do at times... FAQs on websites may be out of synch, especially when there's translation issues. Still, if GW Germany changes the Land Raider's armor to 13, is anyone going to accept that?

Personally, I feel that GW would improve quality-of-life for their fan base by adopting some sort of 'tiers' for this kind of thing, It doesn't have to be hard-and-fast for tournament organizers, but it gives the community a common base line:

Tier 1: All current rules from normal Codexes (Ideally, with the way GW releases codexes, a list should be included to make it even clearer). In general, if using this material you should be able to play at the vast majority of events. Ideally, stuff like the DKoK should be reviewed and included on this list.

Tier 2: Add-ons like Apocalypse, Planet Strike, etc. Most FW rules would probably be here. This material has been reviewed and is probably good, but is either too unusual and game-changing (Flyers or anything else where specific counters may be required) or too fidgety (Anything with lots of extra rules that may just be too slow for tournament-style play) goes here.

Events should certainly be allowed to cherry-pick from this Tier if the want. For example, an event might say "This event follows Tier 1 Guidelines but super-heavies are allowed."

Tier 3: 'Experimental' or trial rules.

As for models, if it's just an alternate model it should certainly be legal.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Balance: in general, the contention is for specific units.

I'd likely agree that they should be 'tier 2' but in many cases, they're really just 'alternative units' for the Codices.

The XV-9 'Hazard' suits for example fit into that.

The overall army lists like Krieg, Elysian, Tyrant's Legion, etc are all pretty well balanced barring a few ridiculous outliers.

Right from their mouths-

THE FORGE WORLD COMPANY



Q1. Is Forge World part of Games Workshop.

A1. Yes, but we operate as a small (but perfectly formed) separate division from the company that makes and sells the main Games Workshop range of products. We are not connected with the US company that used the same name many years back for production of resin Warhammer 40,000 vehicles under licence.

From GW -
Games Workshop Group PLC

Games Workshop has expanded into several divisions/companies producing products related to the Warhammer universe.
Games Workshop now produce the tabletop wargames, Citadel miniatures, and the Specialist Games range.
Forge World make complementary specialist resin miniatures and conversion kits. Forge World is also responsible for the Warhammer Historical line of historical wargames rules, including Warhammer Ancient Battles, all of which were previously published by as a component of Black Library.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think that is where many get confused. The current FW IS now part of GW. It used to be an independent company that had permission by GW, but that is gone & the current FW IS a division of GW (in the very same building as GW HQ!)....GW website sells FW items & FW website sells GW items!

In European gaming circuit & tournies, FW lists are commonly used & allowed....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BUT.....GW 2011/12 tournie (Throne of Skulls) in US (UK makes no mention of FW either way) does NOT allow FW lists, IA, or WD lists.....

:(

So if the Games Wokshop in Potomac Mills Mall started writing and releasing their own Codex: Chaos Squats that would be 100% legal? I'm sure they'd put a note inside saying it is...

I think the []iintent[/i] is that FW is pretty much elgal, but the reality is not so clear.

I personally, if I was actively playing 40k, wouldn't bat an eye at playing almost any FW stuff at least once. If it made the game not-fun I'd say to to a second time.

But then again, I'm weird.

The purpose of Forgeworld is to give me cool stuff to play with. E. g. make my Landraider look even more awesome as it already does with this nifty extraarmour kits and doors, not to mention the Razorback Multimelta turret.

Regarding the usability of models, it is very much ask beforehand here. Which has not been a problem so far. We even allow FW at tournaments, yet reserve the right to say no to things that affect balance too much. That said there is a Bloodangels list in the tourny coming weekend that has 4 Lucius droppods. We´ll see how this will work out. My LS storm might come in handy there.

I am a huge fan of the Black Templar bits.