Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think it should be in for historical purposes.

I mean if rappers can speak ' Yo G, my N---, whats the <bleep> N---?' and so forth I don't see the issue.

Maybe the 'kneegrow derivative' / N-word is more offensive in the states.

Negro isn't as offensive as the N-word for some reason, but 'colored' is more offensive than negro for some reason(maybe due to the 'colored only' signs that were common during the time period).

Although we have organizations known as the United Negro College Fund and National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. The use of those words are really off.

halonachos wrote:Its not a historical document, but I for one don't believe in political correctness.

As Dogma pointed out, the essential point behind what we label "Politically Correct" behavior is simply politeness. Sensitivity to words and actions which may offend others, whose values and experience are different from our own. Too often, a rejection of "Political Correctness" is a rejection of common courtesy and common sense. There was a backlash against PC starting in the 90s when overzealous advocates of PC took it to the level of parody and silliness, but the basic concept is just not giving unnecessary offense. Not giving unnecessary offense, and taking the perspectives of others into account, are for most of us part of being respectful and thoughtful adults.

Stephen Fry evidently agrees, as he concluded that using the word as the dog's name, in the present day version of this movie-made-for-entertainment (not an educational film, which, I reiterate, would have a stricter duty to historical accuracy), would be inappropriate.

halonachos wrote: Sure its being directed by Peter Jackson, but that doesn't mean they could at least try to make it as close to history as possible.

This is the kind of bad reasoning which leads overenthusiastic Tolkien fanatics to decry stuff like Tom Bombadil being left out of Fellowship of the Ring. I LIKE Tom Bombadil, and I appreciate what he brings to the book. But the book and the movie are two different things. And what works in one context does not necessarily make sense in another, especially when you're making a movie for a mass-market audience which doesn't universally possess the knowledge and context to understand everything. Just as mass-market audiences would not have gotten WTH was going on with Bombadil, modern mass-market audiences would be jarred and distracted by the casual use of this word as a dog's name.

halonachos wrote:I mean for all things, to change the name of a dog for political correctness? I can't wait for them to remake Pulp Fiction and any other movie where its in 'context' and have them say something else, like 'Digger'?

That doesn't make any sense at all. Within the CONTEXT of Pulp Fiction's setting, the use of the word in the way those characters use it makes perfect sense. It is evocative of their culture and mindsets, and Tarantino doesn't use it to denigrate or abuse anyone. Audiences are also familiar (at least from movies and TV, and that's the pop culture language Tarantino is pretty expert with) with the kind of criminal and street culture these characters are part of, and their vocabulary makes sense in that context. Bear in mind, too, that these characters aren't put forth as role models or heroes. The guys casually slinging around this kind of language aren't really glorified. They mostly come to bad ends.

Contrariwise, while historically, naming your dog that might not have been a denigration of anyone, but you can be darn sure that modern audiences would see it as derogatory and insulting. And the dog's name really doesn't have anything to do with the story.

Orlanth wrote:Politeness is about positive interaction, it makes no statement of itself about power balance.

Except when we're trained to be extra polite to those in authority.

It seems to me that you're trying to make an overly fine distinction. Politeness has always been about maintaining social order, usually the status quo. The Pc movement of the late 20th century is disgtinguishable not because it attempts to foster political content into etiquette, but because it politeness was changing because of groups aside from the ruling elite.

halonachos wrote:
Not necessarily, if you normally use the term c-bag as an insult and just decided to use it against your mother it doesn't mean that you're being sexist or trying to offend her in relation to her sex, you could just really hate her because of how she acts.

Calling a black man the n-word is another fun concept because in my high school some of the black kids called each other the n-word when greeting each other.

You're correct, context is everything, but as you'll no doubt know, that holds true for political correctness as well. What is politically correct in a Communist meeting is not politically correct in one of your chosen Conservative party.

@Mannahin, what's funny is the use of denigration which has the same stem as the N-word. From the Latin meaning 'to blacken' or 'defame'.

So what you're saying is that context is more important than what actually happened? In the context of Pulp Fiction they didn't have to use the N-word, Tarantino just did.

In this movie they actually named the dog that word and in context they meant it innocently enough compared to the context of Pulp Fiction where they used it derogitavely. So it is more acceptable for the N-word to be used derogitavely as long as the movie is about fake people who use it in a derogative context because they're 'street' compared to the use of the N-word being used innocently in context in a movie based off of history where it was actually used.

I am wondering exactly why context matters so much for Pulp Fiction and not for the dambuster movie.

Mannahnin wrote:

halonachos wrote:Its not a historical document, but I for one don't believe in political correctness.

As Dogma pointed out, the essential point behind what we label "Politically Correct" behavior is simply politeness. Sensitivity to words and actions which may offend others, whose values and experience are different from our own.

Political correctness sometimes hijacks the concept of politeness, it doesn't embody it. One can be politically correct and rude, one can be politcally correct and offensive. One can be polite without refering to politically correct terminology or otherwise being politcally correct. The term has specific subset meaning of supposedly positive interaction, rather than general.

Orlanth wrote:
I am not, so are many others.

Really? If you were to address a group of people, say employees, you would refer to them with epithets?

Well, you might, but even if you were to do so you would be doing in order to elicit a particular political effect, which may or may not be correct. Unless you weren't smart enough to consider the politics of the situation important.

Orlanth wrote:
Nope, political correctness emerged in the 1980's. Human interaction goes back a bit further. So to clarify someone being polite in the 1970's wasn't being poltically correct, as poltical correctness wasnt around then.

That's utter nonsense. The absence of the existence of a term has nothing to do with its applicability. If it did, then translating the word for "jump" in Ancient Greek into "jump" would be a farce.

Orlanth wrote:
Political correctness is often used as a beatstick for political ends, failure to adhere to political correct dogma can lead to punishment of some form, and its is often unevenly applied.

Of course it is, it's political.

Orlanth wrote:
It preaches fairnes and equality, but does not deliver, in fact it can be a to by which unfairness is delivered, by inference that people who fail to adhere to politically correct terminology are offensive, ignorant or bigoted and that those who do are culturally superior.

You very clearly don't understand what "fair" or "equality" means. "Fair" means in accordance with whatever standard of justice the speaker wishes, and equality follows from equal treatment according to a standard. If that standard is "don't be a sexist man" and all men are treated in a way which punishes them for sexism, then the standard is applied equally.

And that's all before you start thinking about progressing to those states, and not actually being in them right now.

Orlanth wrote:
Naive?

Yes.

Orlanth wrote:
Have you any idea what you are talking about?

Yes.

Orlanth wrote:
Rhetorical question by the way.

I didn't ask a question in the bit you quoted.

Orlanth wrote:
You should try and live through New Labour, you would have seen the hard reality of political correctness and how easily it can be weaponised politically.

That's not relevant to my point that everyone is politically correct.

Orlanth wrote:
Irrelevant rant.

You're just upset because you had to do something you didn't like, and are now calling anything you don't like "politically correct". Its yet another entry in a long list of reasons that I consider you not worth speaking to.

Orlanth wrote:
Politeness is about positive interaction, it makes no statement of itself about power balance.

I didn't say that it did. You're putting words in my mouth.

Though, again, that's utter nonsense. Politeness is predicated on etiquette, and etiquette is all about standards set by society, which is governed by power. The curtsy wasn't polite because everyone liked it when women did it, it was polite because men held power over women, and viewed that gesture as indicative of submission.

I'm wondering if Orlanth is confusing "political correctedness" for "having to call minorities by annoying terms."

Political correctness is avoiding the use of 'offensive' terms or actions in relation to sex or race, and avoiding discriminating policies. Affirmative action isn't politcally correct because it does discriminate based on race. Not saying the N-word can be called political correctness in most cases although some people don't say it for other personal reasons.

I for one am not politically correct, I say what I want to in disregard of race, creed, or sex.

halonachos wrote:Political correctness is avoiding the use of 'offensive' terms or actions in relation to sex or race, and avoiding discriminating policies. Affirmative action isn't politcally correct because it does discriminate based on race. Not saying the N-word can be called political correctness in most cases although some people don't say it for other personal reasons.

I for one am not politically correct, I say what I want to in disregard of race, creed, or sex.

Is what you say intentionally offensive, or do you make some effort to respect the race, creed, or sex of those around you?

If in any way the latter, you are being politically correct.

halonachos wrote:@Mannahin, what's funny is the use of denigration which has the same stem as the N-word. From the Latin meaning 'to blacken' or 'defame'.

So what you're saying is that context is more important than what actually happened? In the context of Pulp Fiction they didn't have to use the N-word, Tarantino just did.

In this movie they actually named the dog that word and in context they meant it innocently enough compared to the context of Pulp Fiction where they used it derogitavely. So it is more acceptable for the N-word to be used derogitavely as long as the movie is about fake people who use it in a derogative context because they're 'street' compared to the use of the N-word being used innocently in context in a movie based off of history where it was actually used.

I am wondering exactly why context matters so much for Pulp Fiction and not for the dambuster movie.

You need to read some Derrida.

Kilkrazy wrote:
You need to read some Derrida.

Best French philosopher since Descartes.

In Pulp Fiction, the characters are (at best) anti-heroes. They are criminals who speak and act in a way that we enjoy watching, but now both that it is fake, and that they are not to be emulated. Nobody thinks, after watching the movie, that Vincent Vega is a bad guy because he uses racial slurs. They know he's a bad guy because he shot a black person in the face and showed zero remorse.

Compare that the an air crew that are actual people, and portrayed as actual, bona fide, heros. Seeing them use racial slurs now is a negative thing.

Polonius wrote:

halonachos wrote:Political correctness is avoiding the use of 'offensive' terms or actions in relation to sex or race, and avoiding discriminating policies. Affirmative action isn't politcally correct because it does discriminate based on race. Not saying the N-word can be called political correctness in most cases although some people don't say it for other personal reasons.

I for one am not politically correct, I say what I want to in disregard of race, creed, or sex.

Is what you say intentionally offensive, or do you make some effort to respect the race, creed, or sex of those around you?

If in any way the latter, you are being politically correct.

I actually make no effort to respect anything, I'll joke about just about anything and if someone outside my conversation gets upset I kindly tell them to mind their own business. I went on a spiel about Nazi-druids one time, and that caused issue with some people.

Ok, do you regularly use racial slurs, sexist epithets, or homophobic language when around those groups?

If not, why not?

Polonius wrote:
Compare that the an air crew that are actual people, and portrayed as actual, bona fide, heros. Seeing them use racial slurs now is a negative thing.

To put it another way, the concept of an anti-hero exists in order to show that heroism is hollow. If you don't want to show that, then you don't make the hero do things which indicate as much.

Actually, as I said I don't use the N-word out of fear established when I was younger. That and the spanking I got when I said it in front of my parents.

As far as sexist epithets go I am comfortable saying stuff like 'make me a sammich' and as far as homophobic language I'm not too sure what you mean. I will use slang, but I have no utter hatred for homosexuals or really any kind of person to warrant me to insult them for being so.

halonachos wrote:Actually, as I said I don't use the N-word out of fear established when I was younger. That and the spanking I got when I said it in front of my parents.

As far as sexist epithets go I am comfortable saying stuff like 'make me a sammich' and as far as homophobic language I'm not too sure what you mean. I will use slang, but I have no utter hatred for homosexuals or really any kind of person to warrant me to insult them for being so.

Let me try another question. Have you always told every boss you've had exactly what you think of them, or have you kept stuff back?

It's unlikely that you are completely unfiltered in your speech.

halonachos wrote:Actually, as I said I don't use the N-word out of fear established when I was younger. That and the spanking I got when I said it in front of my parents.

That's political correctness.

Politics is involves in everything. Many Americans just don't like to admit it.

Polonius wrote:

halonachos wrote:Actually, as I said I don't use the N-word out of fear established when I was younger. That and the spanking I got when I said it in front of my parents.

As far as sexist epithets go I am comfortable saying stuff like 'make me a sammich' and as far as homophobic language I'm not too sure what you mean. I will use slang, but I have no utter hatred for homosexuals or really any kind of person to warrant me to insult them for being so.

Let me try another question. Have you always told every boss you've had exactly what you think of them, or have you kept stuff back?

It's unlikely that you are completely unfiltered in your speech.

I've only had one boss and I've actually always thought highly of him, he gets on register when needed and actually does the work everyone else does so I'll have to get back to you when I have a bad boss.

If you want to count my mom as a boss, I have told her that she was nuts and paranoid once. We usually get into fights because I do voice my opinion about her to her face. I do odd jobs and my brother and I were unable to finish a large project within a short amount of time and the guy who hired us said that we did a fine job and that we were done, basically we were fired. I sent him a message telling him not to sugar coat it next time. I wear my heart on my sleeves and if someone is doing something I don't like I will tell them regardless of who they are.

Politics's fifth definition says that its used in social interaction, and I believe that's even the secondary part of the fifth definition of politics. I don't say the N-word because I wish to not offend anyone, I don't say it because it was never really part of my vocabulary to begin with.

Well, it's certainly possible you've led a life free from people you thought little of that could negatively effect your life, and were raised to be polite, but that's still politically correct behavior.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

halonachos wrote:Politics's fifth definition says that its used in social interaction, and I believe that's even the secondary part of the fifth definition of politics. I don't say the N-word because I wish to not offend anyone, I don't say it because it was never really part of my vocabulary to begin with.

But why wasn't it part of your vocabulary? It's a really useful word in a lot of different social circles.

Polonius wrote:Well, it's certainly possible you've led a life free from people you thought little of that could negatively effect your life, and were raised to be polite, but that's still politically correct behavior.

How is living a life free from people I don't like considered to be politically correct? I would call it luck personally, as far as being polite I wouldn't say that I am the most polite but I do understand certain social cues. I don't do anything to avoid offending anyone based on sex or race, which puts me well clear of the definition of political correctness.

halonachos wrote:I don't say the N-word because I wish to not offend anyone, I don't say it because it was never really part of my vocabulary to begin with.

It very obviously is. You know the word, therefore its part of your vocabulary.

Polonius wrote:Well, it's certainly possible you've led a life free from people you thought little of that could negatively effect your life, and were raised to be polite, but that's still politically correct behavior.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

halonachos wrote:Politics's fifth definition says that its used in social interaction, and I believe that's even the secondary part of the fifth definition of politics. I don't say the N-word because I wish to not offend anyone, I don't say it because it was never really part of my vocabulary to begin with.

But why wasn't it part of your vocabulary? It's a really useful word in a lot of different social circles.

Never really said it for some reason, I guess I never had reason to. Never had a lot of 'ghetto' friends who used it, never really saw any films with the word in it until I saw Pulp Fiction actually. Can't say really, but like I said I guess I never had cause to.

halonachos wrote:

Polonius wrote:Well, it's certainly possible you've led a life free from people you thought little of that could negatively effect your life, and were raised to be polite, but that's still politically correct behavior.

How is living a life free from people I don't like considered to be politically correct? I would call it luck personally, as far as being polite I wouldn't say that I am the most polite but I do understand certain social cues. I don't do anything to avoid offending anyone based on sex or race, which puts me well clear of the definition of political correctness.

I was being sarcastic.

You don't need to put effort into being politicfally correct because it comes naturally to you. If you understand social cues, and respond to them, there is a 100% chance you are doing things that are politcally correct.

If you have a social circle where others enjoy jokes that might be considered offensive, than telilng those jokes, in that context, is PC.

dogma wrote:

halonachos wrote:I don't say the N-word because I wish to not offend anyone, I don't say it because it was never really part of my vocabulary to begin with.

It very obviously is. You know the word, therefore its part of your vocabulary.

But it was never practiced.

halonachos wrote:Never really said it for some reason, I guess I never had reason to. Never had a lot of 'ghetto' friends who used it, never really saw any films with the word in it until I saw Pulp Fiction actually. Can't say really, but like I said I guess I never had cause to.

Yeah, I don't mean to sound horribly dismissive, but it sounds like part of the disconnect here is that you might not have the widest exposure yet. The advantages of not offending people go up the more diverse your experiences are.

It also doesn't exactly sound like you behave in a way that isnt' PC, so while you may not be making any effort to do so, you're accomplished the same thing.

Polonius wrote:

halonachos wrote:

Polonius wrote:Well, it's certainly possible you've led a life free from people you thought little of that could negatively effect your life, and were raised to be polite, but that's still politically correct behavior.

How is living a life free from people I don't like considered to be politically correct? I would call it luck personally, as far as being polite I wouldn't say that I am the most polite but I do understand certain social cues. I don't do anything to avoid offending anyone based on sex or race, which puts me well clear of the definition of political correctness.

I was being sarcastic.

You don't need to put effort into being politicfally correct because it comes naturally to you. If you understand social cues, and respond to them, there is a 100% chance you are doing things that are politcally correct.

If you have a social circle where others enjoy jokes that might be considered offensive, than telilng those jokes, in that context, is PC.

Political correctness is the avoidance of saying or doing things that are offensive to a person's political sensibilities in regards to race and or sex. Again, if you want to use politics in reference to social life then its about the second half of the 5th definition for 'politics'.

In the context of the Nazi-druid spiel, that was in public and it happened to offend a jewish kid. At that point I called him a Nazi-druid supporter mainly because I didn't care about his religious affiliation while I was making a jestful rant. It was also around the time that somebody was being made fun of for saying that they were the Rosa Parks of some sort of movement and when he told me to take my soap box elsewhere I declared that I was the Rosa Parks of anti-Nazi-druidism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:

halonachos wrote:Never really said it for some reason, I guess I never had reason to. Never had a lot of 'ghetto' friends who used it, never really saw any films with the word in it until I saw Pulp Fiction actually. Can't say really, but like I said I guess I never had cause to.

Yeah, I don't mean to sound horribly dismissive, but it sounds like part of the disconnect here is that you might not have the widest exposure yet. The advantages of not offending people go up the more diverse your experiences are.

It also doesn't exactly sound like you behave in a way that isnt' PC, so while you may not be making any effort to do so, you're accomplished the same thing.

I grew up in a multicultural neighborhood actually; Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Blacks, Italians, people from Alabama... so I have seen diversity but I missed out on racism 101 apparantly.

halonachos wrote:Political correctness is the avoidance of saying or doing things that are offensive to a person's political sensibilities in regards to race and or sex. Again, if you want to use politics in reference to social life then its about the second half of the 5th definition for 'politics'.

Unless you are always offending everybody (unlikely), than you are being politically correct.

In the context of the Nazi-druid spiel, that was in public and it happened to offend a jewish kid. At that point I called him a Nazi-druid supporter mainly because I didn't care about his religious affiliation while I was making a jestful rant. It was also around the time that somebody was being made fun of for saying that they were the Rosa Parks of some sort of movement and when he told me to take my soap box elsewhere I declared that I was the Rosa Parks of anti-Nazi-druidism.

Good for you, you're a smart-ass kid with enough education to be clever.

I'm not sure what the point of the story was.

Polonius wrote:I grew up in a multicultural neighborhood actually; Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Blacks, Italians, people from Alabama... so I have seen diversity but I missed out on racism 101 apparantly.

Yes, because racism is poliltically incorrect.

See where I"m going with this?

Just because being PC is something you think about doesn't mean you're not doing it.

I grew up in a middle eastern neighborhood. My reactions to offensive things about Arabs isn't based on conscious thought, I just know from experience what is, in many circles, PC.