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Well, I for one am glad I stumbled in here. I'd totally forgotten about OotF and his enemy outflank reroll, I'm definitely going to have to build one now. Finally looking at these threads has paid off.

OP: From where I'm sitting, astro is definitely the weakest link in your new list. It's hard to see anything else you could drop for the obligatory second hydra. Even if you don't want it, there's not a lot of other things to get in a list like yours aside from the PBS suggested by barber. Like, it's either marbo or some autocannons in those vetsquads. Pretty sure either would do more good than astro anyway. People throw down on veterans with heavies a lot, but the truth is everything doesn't always have to move, and autocannons are nice to have around and mesh a bit with the ML.

If you're open to wackier stuff, and I think you can afford to be with a list like yours, bastonne, harker or a primaris can fit if you cut the astropath. But yeah PBS is probably your best bet. It's not everyone's first thought but weaken resolve is great for pinning, especially with manticores when they're not busy on vehicles. Personally I like the squads pretty big so you can take a miscast and still rock house, but you'll have to cut something more for that kind of points.

Also welcome to the site barber. I can tell I'm going to enjoy your stay.

Yep, I took a couple days off. Real life you know.

I then gave a perfectly valid illustrative example of one of these "rare circumstances".

But you didn't. You gave an example where using Shotguns is worse and entirely unnecessary, which I demonstrated quite clearly. All this talk about competitive gaming and I assumed that your opponent would be playing on the same level; you know, thinking ahead and deploying their units in a smart way with proper positioning. Hey! I can beat bad players with bad tactics too! Smart opponents will eye-ball the assault range of your Vets and position their combat squad in a way that reduces the number of casualties you can inflict before assaulting, which in turn gives them a greater chance of drawing combat. This isn't complicated stuff.

My mistake though. All this talk about 'competitive gaming' and 'lack of game comprehension' gave the impression that you were a cut above the usual rabble and actually considered these things.

I never said Shotguns were bad; in fact I explicitly stated that I didn't give a feth either way, only that your 'tactic' was terrible and encourage people to play like idiots. See how I am differentiating between the two? See how, this entire conversation, I have been focusing on tactics and not wargear? It's a real fething shame that you can't tell the difference.

2 hydras agreed.

I would fit some plasmas in place of those meltas. Meltas have a way of not giving back their points IMO. I prefer plasmas just to get 2 shots on MEQ at 12". Yeah yeah, the guy might die gloriously for the emperor. Guess what? That's his job man

With IG you either take it to them with insurmountable firepower, or you get bowled. Also always think in terms of BA right now. That is the measure of tournament play. Those guys break more rules than and intern with a cigar, so always play to BAE as the standard foe.