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And yet, if a Grey Knight is tortured into insanity, he would have equal chance of corruption as everyone else, as his conditioning would be broken by the insanity. So there is a possibility that this would cause a Grey Knight to be corrupted. Of course, he wouldn't exactly be a Grey Knight any more.

Durza wrote:And yet, if a Grey Knight is tortured into insanity, he would have equal chance of corruption as everyone else, as his conditioning would be broken by the insanity. So there is a possibility that this would cause a Grey Knight to be corrupted. Of course, he wouldn't exactly be a Grey Knight any more.

Not really, there are plenty of subliminal and subconscious barriers and triggers. You'd have to do a whole lot better than "torture" to break a Grey Knight.


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Void__Dragon wrote:Purifiers are described as more incorruptible than normal Grey Knights, their secrets unable to be entrusted to normal Grey Knights.

That means that Grey Knights are more corruptible than Purifiers.

That means that Grey Knights can be corrupted, not easily, but the possibility is plainly admitted.

You may think this is really stupid, but it's also canon.

Has it happened yet? No. But the possibility exists, as per current fluff.

The codex contradicts itself. If you download the digital version and search through it, the word "incorruptible" is probably the most common adjective in the whole text.

Grey Templar wrote:
The "Taint" referred to in the Bloodtide is the effects of the Bloodtide. it isn't a Taint in the definition of a Chaos taint.

It attacks your flesh and causes massive bleeding. Its a sapient bio-weapon from the Dark Age of Technology.

Covering yourself in blood can prevent the weapon from working.

That's the old Bloodtide machine, it was destroyed by Raven Guard and without STC there was no coming back.
This Bloodtide machine spawn Daemons and makes people crazy, it doesn't explode body at all but it makes people killing one another and then spilling blood.
Totally different things.


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Kanluwen wrote:
Spiritual and physical corruption are not the same thing. Stop thinking it is, and you'll come off a lot less ridiculous in these threads with your bolding of the entirely wrong concepts.

M.W. said that Grey Knight are incorruptible in EVERY way, meaning both physical and mentally. Unless you present me a sentence from the codex that states different..oh wait, yeah - the Bloodtide incident where SOB are more faithful and resistant to Chaos then Grey Knights...


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Durza wrote:And yet, if a Grey Knight is tortured into insanity, he would have equal chance of corruption as everyone else, as his conditioning would be broken by the insanity. So there is a possibility that this would cause a Grey Knight to be corrupted. Of course, he wouldn't exactly be a Grey Knight any more.

When was the last time you saw a Grey Knight imprisoned? ( beside Draigo )

I'm not saying that there is a Grey Knight trapped somewhere in the Eye being tortured, just that if such a thing was to happen, it might be possible for Fabius Bile to break one.

Then again, it would be easier for the Alpha Legion to convince the Inquisition that a chapter was treatying with daemons so the Grey Knights would destroy the chapter. Hence, Grey Knights would be serving Chaos, but loyal to the Emperor.

What I really don't understand is why everyone is so fixated on trying to rationalize Chaos Grey Knights. I mean, it's not really clever or inventive. It's actually pretty hackneyed. It's basically Bizarro Superman.

Also, every time I see this thread pop up, that's another $5 I toss in the jar to start up my Daemonette Imperial Guard chapter because in spite of anyone saying anything otherwise, if I put my fingers in my ears I can still convince myself there's no reason why Daemonettes wouldn't just join up with the Imperium, declare fealty to the Emperor, and pick up flak armor and lasguns. Why not? If Grey Knights can become spiky in spite of the word incorruptible being used in every context it can, surely Daemonettes can become "uncorrupted" too, in spite of them being literally of the stuff of Chaos.

Hey, look at me, I've broken stereotypical background borders in a way that's never been done before. God, I'm so edgy and clever.

Grey Templar wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Zalmout wrote:A friend and I often argue over whether or not GK can be corrupted by Chaos, I take the modest approach that it could in theory happen, but most likely never will due to all their training and psycho indoctrinating. How do my fellow dakkites feels about the matter? Do you think GK are incorruptible or do you think even they can feel the taint of Chaos?

Keep the purifiers out of this, they are special.

40k fluff: Not in a million years.

Matt Ward: "To this end, each Grey Knight is an accomplished psyker, trained to channel his mental energies into the halo of protective wards known as the Aegis, and an array of formidable battle-sorceries. A Grey Knight's psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the Warp, utterly unpalatable to a Daemon's dark appetites and thus entirely immune from corruption." - begining of the codex.

"Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption". - the biggest fail yet.

Two statement's, entirely different and both entirely true. And even so they contadict one another, and before you say anything guys - being "entirely immune from corruption" count both spirit and flesh.

The "Taint" referred to in the Bloodtide is the effects of the Bloodtide. it isn't a Taint in the definition of a Chaos taint.

It attacks your flesh and causes massive bleeding. Its a sapient bio-weapon from the Dark Age of Technology.

Covering yourself in blood can prevent the weapon from working.

Is this in the fluff or is it simply some fan made conjecture? I really want to know, since there's no mention of any 'sapient bio-weapon' in the passage.

iproxtaco wrote:
Is this in the fluff or is it simply some fan made conjecture? I really want to know, since there's no mention of any 'sapient bio-weapon' in the passage.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bloodtide

And this was long before GK Bloodtide.

Is this in the fluff or is it simply some fan made conjecture? I really want to know, since there's no mention of any 'sapient bio-weapon' in the passage*.

*The passage referring to the Bloodtide story in the Grey Knights book.

There isn't because M.W. turned that machine into a Daemon spawn weapon. I bet he didn't even read the original story...
And Bloodtide machine is in fluff, there is nothing new to overrule it, beside Ward's abomination anyway...

I would say grey knights were corruptable but it's like 1% meaning it's very unlikely but i feel no one is uncorruptable. With all the indoctrination and psychic training the Grey Knights are like Daleks in the end but like Daleks sometimes emotions long thought gone could turn up. The special character with the ghosts is affected by guilt for being the last of his squad to survive.

iproxtaco wrote:Is this in the fluff or is it simply some fan made conjecture? I really want to know, since there's no mention of any 'sapient bio-weapon' in the passage*.

*The passage referring to the Bloodtide story in the Grey Knights book.

The bloodtide brother coa linked to, is from "Hunt for Voldorius" / Andy Hoare ( a space marine battles novel ).
It is a different bloodtide, a bio-weapon pre dating the imperium. If this would hit in the GK story, smearing blood on you won't help.

just be aware, the lexi article has its pages wrong.
So what is 177 should be 377.....
but its incomplete and english only. So it may improve.

Still, the bloodtide ( WMD ) was interred in a vessel. This vessel could be destroyed. With something common, the cleansing flame
Shares just the name.

daedalus wrote:What I really don't understand is why everyone is so fixated on trying to rationalize Chaos Grey Knights. I mean, it's not really clever or inventive. It's actually pretty hackneyed. It's basically Bizarro Superman.

Is it more or less clever and inventive than painting your Grey Marines grey and playing them exactly as intended by the codex?

Personally, I don't have a problem with people making Chaos Grey Knights. They own the models, let them model them however they want. They might even be really cool.

As a background issue: the Imperium is pretty clear that no Grey Knight has ever turned evil. Nor do they need the blood of innocent Sisters of Battle to become Ultra Pure.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Is this in the fluff or is it simply some fan made conjecture? I really want to know, since there's no mention of any 'sapient bio-weapon' in the passage*.

*The passage referring to the Bloodtide story in the Grey Knights book.

The bloodtide brother coa linked to, is from "Hunt for Voldorius" / Andy Hoare ( a space marine battles novel ).
It is a different bloodtide, a bio-weapon pre dating the imperium. If this would hit in the GK story, smearing blood on you won't help.

just be aware, the lexi article has its pages wrong.
So what is 177 should be 377.....
but its incomplete and english only. So it may improve.

Still, the bloodtide ( WMD ) was interred in a vessel. This vessel could be destroyed. With something common, the cleansing flame
Shares just the name.

Exactly. It's not the same thing. The Bloodtide in the Grey Knights Codex is a Daemon weapon emanating from a Greater Daemon of Khorne. It is noted to make people turn against their allies in a blood rage or make them explode in showers of gore. There's a reason the Grey Knights were there in the first place, there's a reason why they needed sorcerous wards to protect themselves, its why some of the Sisters of Battle were able to 'resist the taint' and its why Librarians had to clear the way. It's a Daemonic force, and not the same as in the Hunt for Voldorius.

Also, didn't the bloodtide in the Hunt for Voldorius not appreciate being manipulated by chaos and ALLOW the protagonist to kill it?

Or at least told him how?

I suspect the GK codex Bloodtide was a Daemonic Forgery of the original Bloodtide. a cheap mock up of the original. So they needed to improvise a way to counter it, part daemon part machine.

Omegus wrote:The codex contradicts itself. If you download the digital version and search through it, the word "incorruptible" is probably the most common adjective in the whole text.

I have the codex on this hard drive actually.

I am well aware the codex contradicts itself, and that's why the fluff behind Purifiers is so stupid, because it allows room for the possibility of something that the codex constantly claims isn't be possible.

daedalus wrote:What I really don't understand is why everyone is so fixated on trying to rationalize Chaos Grey Knights. I mean, it's not really clever or inventive. It's actually pretty hackneyed. It's basically Bizarro Superman.

Also, every time I see this thread pop up, that's another $5 I toss in the jar to start up my Daemonette Imperial Guard chapter because in spite of anyone saying anything otherwise, if I put my fingers in my ears I can still convince myself there's no reason why Daemonettes wouldn't just join up with the Imperium, declare fealty to the Emperor, and pick up flak armor and lasguns. Why not? If Grey Knights can become spiky in spite of the word incorruptible being used in every context it can, surely Daemonettes can become "uncorrupted" too, in spite of them being literally of the stuff of Chaos.

Hey, look at me, I've broken stereotypical background borders in a way that's never been done before. God, I'm so edgy and clever.

QFT. Bonus points for using Bizarro Superman as an example.

Dont forget about who is the Author of the said codex.

Grey Knights must be corruptible, or else, all their efforts to dont be corrupeted just go to ground. If they are incorruptible, why they botter about corruption?

Incorruptible here is just an exageration of their real outstanding abilities to dont being corrupted. As someone else said, they know so much how they CAN be corrupted, that the real hard to be corrupted work together sealing the most corruptive things for the chapter.

If GKs where not corruptible, them they will not need the purifiers.

The problem here is some codex author over there, who pick up a order of silver knights, and transformed them in a super hyper duper chapter of golden white holy knights. They stoped to be great mortals, and reached the "too good to be true" state of purity.

I mean, what is heroic about resisting corruption when you are incorruptible?

Sorry, Alessio didn't write the book. The fluff's fine, people just need to actually freaking read it.

Chaos got 1/2 of the primarch's they can get anyone give time and the right influences.

CageUF wrote:Chaos got 1/2 of the primarch's they can get anyone give time and the right influences.

No, they can't.

The whole point of the Grey Knights is that they are made to be incorruptible. There is no way for Chaos to worm its way in like how we see the Primarchs fall.

Due to their psychic training and harsh training regimens is one of the first defenses against corruption. Second, Grey Knights have a psychic shield around their souls,
making them anathema, or essentially immune, to the effects of the Warp, which is probably why none of them have turned since the Great Crusade.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Omegus wrote:The codex contradicts itself. If you download the digital version and search through it, the word "incorruptible" is probably the most common adjective in the whole text.

I have the codex on this hard drive actually.

I am well aware the codex contradicts itself, and that's why the fluff behind Purifiers is so stupid, because it allows room for the possibility of something that the codex constantly claims isn't be possible.

I won't argue with that.

However, I like to rationalize the existence of Purifiers not as "more incorruptible" (which, as stated, is slowed), but as "more zealous/fanatical". After you can be 100% a believer in a particular faith without being a fanatic/extremist. For example, there are plenty of people in the Imperium that are utterly loyal to the Emperor and would gladly die in his service, but occasionally a few are so fervent that they manifest saint-like powers. With the Purifiers, their zeal and faith is so strong, that their normal psychic aura does not only keep themselves inviolate and pure, but radiates outward to cleanse corruption even outside themselves. Hence, cleansing flames.

As is typical, Ward has some good ideas, but he is terrible at putting them down on paper in a coherent manner that doesn't read like fanboy fanfiction fappism (the triple F).


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Beastmaster wrote:Due to their psychic training and harsh training regimens is one of the first defenses against corruption. Second, Grey Knights have a psychic shield around their souls,
making them anathema, or essentially immune, to the effects of the Warp, which is probably why none of them have turned since the Great Crusade.

That statement is misleading, since it implies during the Great Crusade, some did turn, when in fact they didn't even exist back then.

Omegus wrote:I won't argue with that.

However, I like to rationalize the existence of Purifiers not as "more incorruptible" (which, as stated, is slowed), but as "more zealous/fanatical". After you can be 100% a believer in a particular faith without being a fanatic/extremist. For example, there are plenty of people in the Imperium that are utterly loyal to the Emperor and would gladly die in his service, but occasionally a few are so fervent that they manifest saint-like powers. With the Purifiers, their zeal and faith is so strong, that their normal psychic aura does not only keep themselves inviolate and pure, but radiates outward to cleanse corruption even outside themselves. Hence, cleansing flames.

As is typical, Ward has some good ideas, but he is terrible at putting them down on paper in a coherent manner that doesn't read like fanboy fanfiction fappism (the triple F).

That's actually a pretty cool concept on Purifiers, much better than them being 20% more incorruptible, hope you don't mind if I steal it if I ever make a GK army?

Yeah, I saw someone on this board saying Ward is a pretty decent idea man, he just has trouble implementing them effectively. I think that's probably true.

biccat wrote:

daedalus wrote:What I really don't understand is why everyone is so fixated on trying to rationalize Chaos Grey Knights. I mean, it's not really clever or inventive. It's actually pretty hackneyed. It's basically Bizarro Superman.

Is it more or less clever and inventive than painting your Grey Marines grey and playing them exactly as intended by the codex?

No, but I'm not trying to be. I'm trying to adhere to a well established theme with admittedly very little room for deviation. It's like if I was trying to play FoW or some other historical and I painted my Shermans bright yellow because of whatever. That's great, but at the end of the day, it's not a Allied Sherman, it's a bight yellow tank you painted with the leftover paints from your Imperial Fists. It doesn't fit in place. It's an outlier, an anomaly. I'm fine with custom chapters and stuff like that, because there are allowances in the fluff for it. Even successor chapters to Blud Angles and the other specialists. GK have no successors though. They're as they are.

Even then, that's a minor point, because it's not even the color scheme difference I REALLY have a problem with here. It's the fact that "this thing, but EEEEEEVIIILLLL!" is simply trite, and has been overdone and beaten to death more than any other

Personally, I don't have a problem with people making Chaos Grey Knights. They own the models, let them model them however they want. They might even be really cool.

Oh, well, if they own the models, they can do whatever they want with them. Paint them boltgun, paint them yellow, put spikes on them, stick them up their nose, whatever. That's their right, and I lose no sleep whatsoever over that. Just don't come here and ask if you think it's okay and then get surprised/butthurt when everyone says otherwise. Just because I accept you CAN do whatever you want doesn't mean that I have to accept the idea.