Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:So Eldar have genetically-engineered warriors and advanced AI? I didn't know that, where odes it say?

AI? No, they can just instill the souls of their dead into organic constructs that run throughout massive Craftworlds. But besides that, they had what is functionally similar to AI, in that it allowed them to be lazy dicks. Genetically engineered warriors is a no, but the only man who had the secret to that was the Emperor himself, that is but one way the Imperium is more advanced than the Eldar, and only one.

It helped the Old Ones against Necrons, that is why they exist today. Wait...

Faster, safer, more reliable FTL travel. The Necrons had the backing of deities and possessed, once again, the most advanced technology in the setting, far and away superior to every other faction in the galaxy. Stop bringing up irrelevant points as a crutch for your bad argument.

Imperium maybe. We have no data on Human ships before the Imperium beside the fact that they used Warp Drive and Geller fields to. For all that we know pre-Imperium Mankind ships would be more powerful and faster then the ones Imperium have currently.

Stop assuming gak. Warp travel is famously unreliable, Webway travel is better, and we should not assume human ships during the Golden Age are faster than Eldar ships, which are renowned for speed, actually rivaling Necron ships in speed and actually surpassing them in maneuverability.

That belonged to the Eldar? They are even bigger idiots for letting them to drift in space for 10.000 years only to be stolen in the end by Forces of Chaos. And didn't the Old Ones build those as well?

Considering the Deceiver organised the Gothic War with the sole intention of destroying the Blackstone Fortresses and having the remaining ones put beyond the Eldar's reach. Oh, and you know, the reason they kind of had trouble retrieving them all, is because their race was obliterated by the birth of Slaanesh. And nice moving of the goalposts, the argument is that the Eldar had better tech than Man. If you can't argue this, then concede.

You know that Main Mankind tech is not STC? STC only provides necessarily scripts for basic equipment ( and there was also military one ). I can say for sure that Humans had at least technology in pair with the Eldar ( aldo Eldar didn't invent anything, they inherited that tech from the Old Ones while we invented everything so we had bigger knowledge of how our tech works ). But we cannot know that because we lost 95% of it in the Age of Strife. I would like GW to make just 1 novel at that time to see how advanced we are.

Considering it's stated to be the sum total of Mankind's technological achievements, no, it is main Mankind tech. How can you say for sure that Mankind had technology on par with the Eldar? I mean, besides your human-centric bias? Since no source points to that being the case.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And who built them again? Oh, right, the Old Ones, not the Eldar.

No actually, the "Talismans of Vaul" as they are called, were created by Vaul, the Eldar deity of the forge. In other words, they are an Eldar construct.

Brother Coa wrote:We don't know that, we only know that we were also on our technological peak. For all that we know we could have been like Federation from Star Trek with technology back then. The reason I am saying this is because we understand our tech and Eldar don't understand theirs. It would be like some alien civilization came to Earth and give us all their stuff, and we are now what? Technologicaly advanced race and we don't know how 90% of our stuff works? Sorry, but for me that is not advanced at all, pre-Imperial Humans at least knew how their stuff worked while Eldar just let their run and had

Spoiler:

orgasms

all day.

Where are you getting this "Eldar don't understand their tech" gak from? That's a rhetorical question. You made it up. The Eldar are very much aware how their tech works. And the Old Ones didn't invent everything for the Eldar, no source states such. The only thing they don't know how to really work is the Webway.

-We have no prof or and source of Mankind technological levels from pre-Imperial era. We only know that much of technology was lost from then and that's it.
-My bad arguments was that the Old Ones have tech like the Eldar and lost war to Necrons. Even if they had Webway, so in war Webways is not much of a help when you are facing horde who is stretch hundreds of light years.
-And what ship? Find me a source that say that Human ships from Golden Age are the same like imperial ones in REAL space, not Warp. I was talking about them being more advanced to act in REAL space, not Warp. We know that Human tech was higher during that time, and that logically means better ships. Unless you can prove t ome otherwise - s*** up.
-"Deceiver organised the Gothic War" were does that say? And even if the Eldar sufferer a catastrophic fail to their civilization - there were BILLIONS of the who escaped. Some of them must realized that they must go and pilot that things ( after all they are massive and can provide good protection for Craftworld ). Even if they couldn't remember then - they have more than 10.000 years to go and get them, idiots...
-There is no source for Mankind tech because there is no FLUFF for that period, same as I can't tell how many worlds the Old Ones controlled. We only know that technology was wast advanced, even more then Tau in the 41'st millennium ( and that was said here 100x ). The difference was that Eldar used materials from the Warp while Mankind use this worlds material. And only that and Webways gives Eldar the edge - nothing more. ADn because there is no source pointing that Eldar had better technology then Humans then we can assume that they were in pair, if Man didn't have better.
-And please don't use gods here ( Vaul ), because Eldar gods are real as our Gods are.
-And Eldar don't have technology at all. All their building, weapons, ships, cars, wahtever is build from Wrathbone. And only Bonesingers know how this works. Actually using Warp material them psychic powers to shape it into whatever you want is a little cheathing when comparing to other factions ( it would be like me shaping with y mind a ton of steel to make it into Eiffel Tower ). The only real tech that Eldar have is Webway, and they get that as a gift from Old Ones. And they don't know how to build that ( because you probably must actually knmow how technology works to build it ).

To summary:
-Eldar had advanced tech then Humans because they use Wrathbone that shape all their tech from Warp energy. And only some of their people know how this works ( sound fammiliar? ). They don't know anything else, not even how Wabway work because they get that as a present from Old Ones just like Wrathbone. However, Humans know how their tech work perfectly and they are more technologically able then Eldar.
-While Humans progress Eldar became more and more arrogant and self-proud that they abandon all work and start having wild parties all day. Witch in the end lead to their Fall - just like the Old Ones told them. And they are recless, they believe in every propecy that was fortold and they left the most powerful weapons of war to drift in space only to be taken by Chaos in the end ( EPIC FAIL )
-Now Humans rule the galaxy ( somewhat ) and Eldar are jealous as how "primitives" can rule and they not. When they are better in every way then Humans.

Result: Eldar are idiots.

Durza wrote:The Emperor was pretty prepared for it as well.

Though does that mean Slaanesh had no hand in the deal with the Emperor or stealing the primarchs?

The deal is pure conjecture/slander from a daemon's mouth.

As for the stealing, the Ruinous Powers would act on impulses of self-gratification and self-preservation even before they became fully self-aware. So it's conceivable he lent his strength to the warp rift that spirited them away.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote: You can say that Humanity was easily on par with Eldar on technological and military might in it's golden age.

The fluff does not support this claim (Especially in regards to technology).

The only faction with undeniably better technology than the Eldar are the Necrons.

Now, you can argue that humanity was more innovative than the Eldar, who largely just used technology the Old Ones created.

QFT

Limitless speed travel > Everyone.

Necrons can cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye, with warships that make Terra's defenses look like a child's attempt at war.

The fact that Eldar waged war with them as an ancient enemy puts them well ahead of humanity at their peak.

Durza wrote:The Age of Strife and Fall were unrelated. The Fall removed the Warp Storms preventing humanity leaving Terra.

I'm sure there's more recent fluff supporting this, but since there's so little written about the Age of Strife, I'm also sure there's nothing contradicting this:

Lost and the Damned wrote:The birth pangs of Slaanesh made it all the more necessary that humanity progress as quickly as possible. Warp travel became increasingly difficult as the horror-torn dreams of Slaanesh became more intense. Even the other Powers of Chaos were weakened as the whole fabric of the warp writhed and twisted with tempestuous warp storms.

As a result, space travel became almost impossible, and many worlds were isolated for long periods of time. Human society broke apart and Earth was cut off from the rest of the galaxy altogether. This was the Age of Strife in human history - an age of anarchy and madness which even the New Man was powerless to prevent. The Age of Strife was only ended with the birth of Slaanesh, an event which was to bring new problems and fresh dangers.

I mean, you have a long period of intensifying warpstorms culminating in a massive gakstorm and the birth of Slaanesh and these events are supposed to be unrelated? The Eldar didn't one day up and decide to go full-hedonist and birth a god, it happened over multiple generations (an Eldar generation being a pretty fething long time, too.)

Brother Coa wrote:-We have no prof or and source of Mankind technological levels from pre-Imperial era. We only know that much of technology was lost from then and that's it.

Then stop making claims about it when you have no proof.

-My bad arguments was that the Old Ones have tech like the Eldar and lost war to Necrons. Even if they had Webway, so in war Webways is not much of a help when you are facing horde who is stretch hundreds of light years.

Not to mention the fact that they had the backing of deities and wielded tech that was even more advanced than that of the Old Ones. Stop bringing up irrelevant points as a crutch for your argument.

-And what ship? Find me a source that say that Human ships from Golden Age are the same like imperial ones in REAL space, not Warp. I was talking about them being more advanced to act in REAL space, not Warp. We know that Human tech was higher during that time, and that logically means better ships. Unless you can prove t ome otherwise - s*** up.

Find me a source that says they were better than Eldar ships.

-"Deceiver organised the Gothic War" were does that say? And even if the Eldar sufferer a catastrophic fail to their civilization - there were BILLIONS of the who escaped. Some of them must realized that they must go and pilot that things ( after all they are massive and can provide good protection for Craftworld ). Even if they couldn't remember then - they have more than 10.000 years to go and get them, idiots...

Page 31 of the Necron codex. It mentions the Deceiver provoked the war and that it would have destroyed the Gothic Sector thousands of times over to ahieve its goals. Also, billions? A very small amount of billions, and you throw around that number like it's a lot or something. In galactic terms, that's a paltry number. The Eldar were kind of busy surviving, and once more, the reason they no longer have them is because a god put them beyond their reach.

-There is no source for Mankind tech because there is no FLUFF for that period, same as I can't tell how many worlds the Old Ones controlled. We only know that technology was wast advanced, even more then Tau in the 41'st millennium ( and that was said here 100x ). The difference was that Eldar used materials from the Warp while Mankind use this worlds material. And only that and Webways gives Eldar the edge - nothing more. ADn because there is no source pointing that Eldar had better technology then Humans then we can assume that they were in pair, if Man didn't have better.

The Tau's technology is bs compared to the Eldar, hell, Tau technology isn't even above Imperial technology in many ways. Their ability to combine technology with the Warp is a big advantage, stop pretending it isn't. And the fluff directly states no race in the galaxy could compare to the Eldar's technological prowess before the Fall (The Necrons weren't around back then). And no, that's not how logic works. We know that Eldar technology is advanced, much more so than Mankind's, assuming that Man had on par or better technology is faulty logic.

-And please don't use gods here ( Vaul ), because Eldar gods are real as our Gods are.

Is still their technology. And interestingly enough the Necron codex says the Talismen of Vaul were created by the Eldar, so boo you.

-And Eldar don't have technology at all. All their building, weapons, ships, cars, wahtever is build from Wrathbone. And only Bonesingers know how this works. Actually using Warp material them psychic powers to shape it into whatever you want is a little cheathing when comparing to other factions ( it would be like me shaping with y mind a ton of steel to make it into Eiffel Tower ). The only real tech that Eldar have is Webway, and they get that as a gift from Old Ones. And they don't know how to build that ( because you probably must actually knmow how technology works to build it ).

That's a cop-out. And wrong, regardless. Technology is just the practical application of knowledge. They practically applied their knowledge of the Warp to create Wraithbone constructs. "Cheating"? So basically you think Eldar technology shouldn't count because it's unfairly superior to the other factions (Sans Necrons)? Good to hear we agree. Also, only Bonesingers know how it works? Are you under the impression every human during the Golden Age knew how to build a starship or something? Lol@u.

To summary:
-Eldar had advanced tech then Humans because they use Wrathbone that shape all their tech from Warp energy. And only some of their people know how this works ( sound fammiliar? ). They don't know anything else, not even how Wabway work because they get that as a present from Old Ones just like Wrathbone. However, Humans know how their tech work perfectly and they are more technologically able then Eldar.

Please show me where it says the Old Ones created Wraithbone. Eldar are capable of creating weaponry and constructs utlising their knowledge of the Warp that are superior to what we have seen from Man. Therefore they are better.

-While Humans progress Eldar became more and more arrogant and self-proud that they abandon all work and start having wild parties all day. Witch in the end lead to their Fall - just like the Old Ones told them. And they are recless, they believe in every propecy that was fortold and they left the most powerful weapons of war to drift in space only to be taken by Chaos in the end ( EPIC FAIL )

They because lazy feths because they had the technological ability to afford it. The Old Ones also told them nothing of the sort. Oh, and they don't believe in every prophecy, they manipulate events to ensure some come to pass, and others do not. Once more, the Blackstone Fortresses were taken beyond their reach by the Fall and the Deceiver.

-Now Humans rule the galaxy ( somewhat ) and Eldar are jealous as how "primitives" can rule and they not. When they are better in every way then Humans.

Result: Eldar are idiots.

Stop being butthurt.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:-We have no prof or and source of Mankind technological levels from pre-Imperial era. We only know that much of technology was lost from then and that's it.

Then stop making claims about it when you have no proof.

-My bad arguments was that the Old Ones have tech like the Eldar and lost war to Necrons. Even if they had Webway, so in war Webways is not much of a help when you are facing horde who is stretch hundreds of light years.

Not to mention the fact that they had the backing of deities and wielded tech that was even more advanced than that of the Old Ones. Stop bringing up irrelevant points as a crutch for your argument.

-And what ship? Find me a source that say that Human ships from Golden Age are the same like imperial ones in REAL space, not Warp. I was talking about them being more advanced to act in REAL space, not Warp. We know that Human tech was higher during that time, and that logically means better ships. Unless you can prove t ome otherwise - s*** up.

Find me a source that says they were better than Eldar ships.

-"Deceiver organised the Gothic War" were does that say? And even if the Eldar sufferer a catastrophic fail to their civilization - there were BILLIONS of the who escaped. Some of them must realized that they must go and pilot that things ( after all they are massive and can provide good protection for Craftworld ). Even if they couldn't remember then - they have more than 10.000 years to go and get them, idiots...

Page 31 of the Necron codex. It mentions the Deceiver provoked the war and that it would have destroyed the Gothic Sector thousands of times over to ahieve its goals. Also, billions? A very small amount of billions, and you throw around that number like it's a lot or something. In galactic terms, that's a paltry number. The Eldar were kind of busy surviving, and once more, the reason they no longer have them is because a god put them beyond their reach.

-There is no source for Mankind tech because there is no FLUFF for that period, same as I can't tell how many worlds the Old Ones controlled. We only know that technology was wast advanced, even more then Tau in the 41'st millennium ( and that was said here 100x ). The difference was that Eldar used materials from the Warp while Mankind use this worlds material. And only that and Webways gives Eldar the edge - nothing more. ADn because there is no source pointing that Eldar had better technology then Humans then we can assume that they were in pair, if Man didn't have better.

The Tau's technology is bs compared to the Eldar, hell, Tau technology isn't even above Imperial technology in many ways. Their ability to combine technology with the Warp is a big advantage, stop pretending it isn't. And the fluff directly states no race in the galaxy could compare to the Eldar's technological prowess before the Fall (The Necrons weren't around back then). And no, that's not how logic works. We know that Eldar technology is advanced, much more so than Mankind's, assuming that Man had on par or better technology is faulty logic.

-And please don't use gods here ( Vaul ), because Eldar gods are real as our Gods are.

Is still their technology. And interestingly enough the Necron codex says the Talismen of Vaul were created by the Eldar, so boo you.

-And Eldar don't have technology at all. All their building, weapons, ships, cars, wahtever is build from Wrathbone. And only Bonesingers know how this works. Actually using Warp material them psychic powers to shape it into whatever you want is a little cheathing when comparing to other factions ( it would be like me shaping with y mind a ton of steel to make it into Eiffel Tower ). The only real tech that Eldar have is Webway, and they get that as a gift from Old Ones. And they don't know how to build that ( because you probably must actually knmow how technology works to build it ).

That's a cop-out. And wrong, regardless. Technology is just the practical application of knowledge. They practically applied their knowledge of the Warp to create Wraithbone constructs. "Cheating"? So basically you think Eldar technology shouldn't count because it's unfairly superior to the other factions (Sans Necrons)? Good to hear we agree. Also, only Bonesingers know how it works? Are you under the impression every human during the Golden Age knew how to build a starship or something? Lol@u.

To summary:
-Eldar had advanced tech then Humans because they use Wrathbone that shape all their tech from Warp energy. And only some of their people know how this works ( sound fammiliar? ). They don't know anything else, not even how Wabway work because they get that as a present from Old Ones just like Wrathbone. However, Humans know how their tech work perfectly and they are more technologically able then Eldar.

Please show me where it says the Old Ones created Wraithbone. Eldar are capable of creating weaponry and constructs utlising their knowledge of the Warp that are superior to what we have seen from Man. Therefore they are better.

-While Humans progress Eldar became more and more arrogant and self-proud that they abandon all work and start having wild parties all day. Witch in the end lead to their Fall - just like the Old Ones told them. And they are recless, they believe in every propecy that was fortold and they left the most powerful weapons of war to drift in space only to be taken by Chaos in the end ( EPIC FAIL )

They because lazy feths because they had the technological ability to afford it. The Old Ones also told them nothing of the sort. Oh, and they don't believe in every prophecy, they manipulate events to ensure some come to pass, and others do not. Once more, the Blackstone Fortresses were taken beyond their reach by the Fall and the Deceiver.

-Now Humans rule the galaxy ( somewhat ) and Eldar are jealous as how "primitives" can rule and they not. When they are better in every way then Humans.

Result: Eldar are idiots.

Stop being butthurt.

You are asking for prof that do not exist, even when claiming something opposite for what prof don't exist either?
You said that gods created something, I said that they learned how to make that from Old Ones, you say that Eldar created it?
And you didn't even look from the logical side of things but still eager to put your own opinion?
You know what - ignore list.

Brother Coa wrote:You are asking for prof that do not exist, even when claiming something opposite for what prof don't exist either?
You said that gods created something, I said that they learned how to make that from Old Ones, you say that Eldar created it?
And you didn't even look from the logical side of things but still eager to put your own opinion?
You know what - ignore list.

There is evidence that Eldar tech was superior to Golden Age Mankind tech. Like, you know, the direct statement that this was the case.

I was incorrect before, the Eldar apparently created them.

I am very much looking from the logical side of things.

I accept your concession.

Ah, the wonders of "ignore" List....

Your location is listed as "Holly Terra".

You two do realise that you're discussing a fictional backstory for a game of toy soldiers, right?

All the gnashing of teeth is completely unnecessary.