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Anvildude wrote:

Saiisil wrote:How about this king, show me in the rules where it says that "suffers x hits = automatic hits". Everything I know of that automatically hits says so before they go on to explain what the effects are, they do not say it while explaining what the effects are.

I believe that if you check most middle or high-school grammar textbooks it should clear that up for you.

I'm thinking that English Language > Codex Specific wording > BRB rules.

King Pariah wrote:face it if he can't get "suffers a number of hits..." through his head, then nothing we say can prove otherwise until a FAQ clears it up.

I'm just going to reiterate this.

Sir_Prometheus, king, ok so lets say you guys are right, guess what Eldar players get to ignore the need to roll a to hit roll with your Vibro cannons since they have the wording of 'suffers x hits'. That is the only logical path for your guys argument to take.

Anvildude, why not check your high school and college grade textbooks, oh hey your grammar argument is thrown out the window with those.

Not that I've seena vibro cannon used, but I'm pretty sure it DOES just do X hits.

Ugh, I'm beginning to believe that it should be Annoying Blood Angel Devastator....

Order of Death Ray is as follows (Nos, if I'm wrong, please correct me).
Roll To Hit (no target required). If miss stop.
Mark point A.
Mark Point B.
Draw a straight line from point A to point B.
All units under the line are hit.
This is how it is supposed to be played, unless FAQ'd differently.

Except, like, tons of people disagree with you. But you can keep on making declarations, if you want. Doesn't make it so.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Not that I've seena vibro cannon used, but I'm pretty sure it DOES just do X hits.

I'm pretty sure you should read the Eldar rules. You don't draw the line until one of the guns hits.

And that is entirely due to the rules for vibro-cannons and is not mentioned at all in the rules for Death Ray.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Except, like, tons of people disagree with you. But you can keep on making declarations, if you want. Doesn't make it so.

agreed

King Pariah wrote:Ugh, I'm beginning to believe that it should be Annoying Blood Angel Devastator....

As it should be Sulking Heavy Destroyer right?

Unit1126PLL wrote:And that is entirely due to the rules for vibro-cannons and is not mentioned at all in the rules for Death Ray.

Yet the rules for Death Ray also do not mention bypassing the need of a to-hit roll either.

As I pointed out to Saiisil in a previous thread, all weapons/PSA fall into 1 of 4 categories:
1. state "This weapon (power) automatically hit..."
2. state "Instead of rolling to hit..."
3. blasts/templates (which coincedently fall into group 2)
4. everything else (which requires a 'To Hit' roll)
Guess which group Death Ray falls into?

"Range 12"(special) str 10 ap 1 Heavy 1

Death Ray: To fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapons range, then nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first. Then, draw a straight line between the two points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line. If the vehicles other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase, it must be fired at one of the units hit by the death ray."

Thats straight from the codex people, you can debate amongst yourselves, but to me it hits every unit under the line, as many times as THAT unit has models under the line, this still makes the Doom scythe very powerful since anything hit without an Invul is insta-vapor and Id forgotten about the twin-linked tesla destructor it had until I read the codex again to type this, it may only hit once of twice due to its 11 av but man, this scythe is truly a reaper

'cept those 4 aren't the only categories.

Death ray is "Do such and such, and after that, this unit takes this many hits." The drawing of the line and the checking of which are underneath it replace the to-hit rolls.

However, I do see your point (still think you're wrong, but I see it) and wish to say that the to-hit would not be done before the line is drawn, but after. You'd roll a number of to-hits equal to how many the rule says "Suffer a number of hits" (note this paragraph is only opinion and is in no way meant to be based on hard evidince)

Look, line weapons are basically template weapons. It's just that the template is infinitely thin, as it is one-dimensional. Meaning it can be thought of, but not actually sold as a product- other than that, it's a template.

Lol, GW comes out with a new template for $10, hey wait a minute! Its just a nylon green string!

Anvildude wrote:However, I do see your point (still think you're wrong, but I see it) and wish to say that the to-hit would not be done before the line is drawn, but after. You'd roll a number of to-hits equal to how many the rule says "Suffer a number of hits" (note this paragraph is only opinion and is in no way meant to be based on hard evidince)

As it is my opinion that we should follow the example of a line attack that goes into full details of how it works in order to set a default for all lines.

Look, line weapons are basically template weapons. It's just that the template is infinitely thin, as it is one-dimensional. Meaning it can be thought of, but not actually sold as a product- other than that, it's a template.

The issue I have with this train of thought. If we consider line to be a template weapons then we are saying that no cover saves can be made against any line attack as that is a special effect of template weapons and would actually go against one of the FAQ rulings IIRC.

Exalted Pariah wrote:Lol, GW comes out with a new template for $10, hey wait a minute! Its just a nylon green string!

I think if they released a Line Marker/Template it would be best to use the plastic ruler they release with the starter sets such as Assault of Black Reach.

EDIT: Some new information that may or may not help lean one way or the other. According to someone I know that is on the side of 'Automatic Hits" has informed me that the 'Ard Boyz tournament this year required a roll to hit before the line was placed for both JotWW and Blood Lance.

Hmm...


And I don't mean 'template' as in 'flame template'. Sorry. I just tend to call anything that has a physical representation of the damaged area a 'template' weapon, including blasts and such. One of those nasty homonyms.

EDIT: Some new information that may or may not help lean one way or the other. According to someone I know that is on the side of 'Automatic Hits" has informed me that the 'Ard Boyz tournament this year required a roll to hit before the line was placed for both JotWW and Blood Lance.


Means absolutely nothing. GW gave no instructions, FAQ's, or pretty much anything but the missions. Stores, and the TO's the stores used, made that decision.

There were no such rulings from GW. I ran local, regionals, and finals.

The Vibro Cannon and the Death Ray do not have similar wording.

The Vibro Cannon's rules say it rolls to hit, it tells you to draw a line to determine what units are hit, and it has a third mechanic to tell you how many hits each unit will suffer IF it is hit.

The Death Ray says to draw a line, count the number of models under that line, and inflict that many hits. Not take that many shots. Inflict that many hits.

You have to remember this "line of death" can be as short as 3". This makes the weapon far from a sure thing. The only thing truly at risk will be the parking lots. The average roll will be about 11", which puts the total range under 24" more often than not.

If you consider the other strength 10 weapons and the vehicles that are mounted on, this vehicle is quite a bit more expensive and MUCH less survivable. The Vindicator, Leman Russ and Hammerhead all come with at least armor 13 and two of these are going to drop a large blast every time they shoot and they are all at least 20 to 30 percent cheaper than the Doom Scythe. The IG Deathstrike Missile can drop a template that is up to 12" across at the same strength as the Death Ray and it is also cheaper that the Doom Scythe.

The Death Ray is meant to be powerful, but it is far from game breaking when taken in perspective with these other "overpowered" vehicles. This is the ultimate glass hammer.

When you take all of this in to account, the lack of survivability, range and random chance involved, the Death Ray is not overpowered if it hits all members of a squad. This is the way the rule is meant to work. It will occasionally have a chance to to do something but most of the time it will just make another nice piece of terrain for all of us to look at.

ObsidianRT wrote:When you take all of this in to account, the lack of survivability, range and random chance involved, the Death Ray is not overpowered if it hits all members of a squad. This is the way the rule is meant to work. It will occasionally have a chance to to do something but most of the time it will just make another nice piece of terrain for all of us to look at.

So because it might not work well every time, you are allowed to misread the rule and slaughter horde armies?

Tri wrote:What the rule says ...
Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line.

What the rule should say ...
Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the fine suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models underneath the line, in that unit.

or for the other reading ...
Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the fine suffers a hit for every model in that unit.

Trouble is from a purely grammatical stand point the original rule points to both options ... from a practical point it takes a lot less writing to say every one is hit. Which is why i think you only hit the models under the line ...

... but then why not just put ...
"For every model under the line, the unit they belong to suffers a hit"
... >_<

Because then people would argue that, even though you hit 10 of 20 guys in a squad, it's only one hit.

Two simple words and a little reorganization added to the original rule:

Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models underneath the line that are in that unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

ObsidianRT wrote:When you take all of this in to account, the lack of survivability, range and random chance involved, the Death Ray is not overpowered if it hits all members of a squad. This is the way the rule is meant to work. It will occasionally have a chance to to do something but most of the time it will just make another nice piece of terrain for all of us to look at.

So because it might not work well every time, you are allowed to misread the rule and slaughter horde armies?

I have not misread the rule. This is one possible way to read the rule, which makes sense based on the point cost and the other stats. It is not just a single gun that is just floating a round the field, there are distinct weaknesses and limitations to the Doom Scythe. Otherwise, why is everyone not screaming about SM Vindicators which are 2/3 the cost and are much more survivable. Hit the Doom Scythe with anything more powerful than a bolter and it will be a smoking wreck.

The rule was left intentionally vague by GW so we will focus on it. Every codex seem to have a couple rules written this way. They are all vague and can easily be interpreted either way. The amount of detail and conditions that are put into a lot of these rules makes it apparent that these rules are left this way so we spend all of our time arguing about these rules which will have little effect on real world game play.

We should be looking at units which GW is trying to push off on us that are over priced and going to do nothing but sit in our cases collecting dust (Praetorians and Lychguard).

Yes, You've misread the rule.

Yes, your veiw is one interpretation. It's also wrong.

GW does not intentionally leave rules vague. They are masters of doing that unintentionally.

Okay, just one thing.

I'm rather tired of folks saying that the rule can only be read one way. That's blatantly not true, or else there wouldn't be these arguments. I honestly don't care which way the rule goes, but at least don't insult others by saying they're too stupid to read English properly.

There's two valid interpretations of this rule. There's facts for and against it being finally interpreted either way. This is a discussion/argument about which is the better and/or which is the intended, not a critique of people's reading and comprehension ability. I know I'm as guilty of this as anyone, but let's stop now, and focus on the rule itself.

Anvildude wrote:Okay, just one thing.

I'm rather tired of folks saying that the rule can only be read one way. That's blatantly not true, or else there wouldn't be these arguments. I honestly don't care which way the rule goes, but at least don't insult others by saying they're too stupid to read English properly.

There's two valid interpretations of this rule. There's facts for and against it being finally interpreted either way. This is a discussion/argument about which is the better and/or which is the intended, not a critique of people's reading and comprehension ability. I know I'm as guilty of this as anyone, but let's stop now, and focus on the rule itself.

+1, I'll admit I too am guilty of it, I try to save such remarks as returns to people using them on myself but I too am guilty.

As with almost every rule that exists in this system there are at least 2 ways to read it. We can not outright say someone is wrong or question their capability to understand literature without solid airtight proof of it. I believe that the fair assessment is the number of hits in a unit are equal to the number of models under the line in that unit, but I have been able to take and provide solid proof for it to mean that the number of hits are equal to the number of models that are in the unit under the line. Personally I believe they could have ended this discussion before releasing the codex by adding just 2 commas or swapping the words around a little bit. Just like with the subsequent argument about rolling to hit, there are two ways to look at it but I feel with the wording or rather lack of wording 1 way is more correct then the other, doesn't make the opposite wrong just opposite. There is but 1 thing I ask, solid evidence that says that you do not roll to hit with the weapon, without that, a hardline rules basis which is what we must think with in terms of tournaments (as in friendly/causal games we can choose to ignore or change the rules as the game environment calls for) says roll to hit.

@Saiisil:
You do not need to roll to hit, as there is no target. As you chose to ignore the last time I mentioned this, I will quote the rule for you:

"To determine if the firing models have hit their target, roll a d6 for each shot that is in range."

Does the death ray target? No. Does it need to roll to hit? No.

@Kitzz, There also is no target for Blood Lance, Vibro Cannon, etc. In fact with every "line" weapon (except JOTWW, which was FAQ'd) there is no "target". However, all those require an initail to hit roll. You do not however have to roll to hit each model with any of these attacks. You just make a 'To Hit' roll and if successful draw the line.

Death ray is not a psychic attack, so it just hits?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Death ray is not a psychic attack, so it just hits?

When I first read it I thought the entire squad would be hit since most troops based squads like termagaunts cannot do wound allocation.

The way I perceived it was that Every Unit (group of models) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models (individual) in the Unit (group of models) underneath the line. Which to me does sound like The Unit as a whole takes a number of hits based on the number of how many individual models in the units in base contact with the death ray line.