Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

DK - please, just accept that the 6 people and TO who corrected you are just plain wrong on this.

Do a little research, note diversified orks and paladins and their use over the last 3 years (well, 4 months for paladins) of the game, for ork nobs since 5th edition began.

Complex units requires you to spread wounds evenly (allocation) before dividing into wound groups

Multi wounds requires you to remove wounded models FROM THAT WOUND GROUP

The two work perfectly hand in hand. There is no debate on this, you are simply, utterly and 100% incorrect.

Lobukia...u dont seem to understand what this is about...the point was you cannot just spread around wounds...and in a broad way you can...but you run into the fact that you cant among same models with multi wounds even if there complex

And yes...it was an 'ard boys terny

DK wrote:Lobukia...u dont seem to understand what this is about...the point was you cannot just spread around wounds...and in a broad way you can...but you run into the fact that you cant among same models with multi wounds even if there complex

And yes...it was an 'ard boys terny

Don't think that because it was an Ard Boyz tournament that means anything. it doesn't.

We don't know who the TO was or what his background is.

For all we know you were playing at a GW, and Redshirts know jack squat about rules interpertations most of the time. You can't trust anyone in a rules argument unless they show exact page quotes showing they are right.


In this case, you are most definitly wrong. Wrong by the very pages you have quoted.


believe me, this discussion has been around for a LONG time. The correct interpertaion has been shown to you. Now you can choose to either accept it, or continue being incorrect.

DK wrote:Lobukia...u dont seem to understand what this is about...the point was you cannot just spread around wounds...and in a broad way you can...but you run into the fact that you cant among same models with multi wounds even if there complex

And yes...it was an 'ard boys terny

Read the second half of the very image you posted back on page one. Specifically, the part that says "Multiple-wound models in the unit that are unique are rolled for separately and their unsaved wounds must be recorded separately." The material that you linked is proving you wrong.

DK wrote:Lobukia...u dont seem to understand what this is about...the point was you cannot just spread around wounds...and in a broad way you can...but you run into the fact that you cant among same models with multi wounds even if there complex

Then what is happening with the differing nob on page 26? Go away silly man... some people aren't smart enough to know they're dumb

Read third to last sentence of the third to last paragraph of page 26. Explain how that doesn't support the rest of the 40k world's point or how it supports what you are saying.

rigeld2 had it perfect on his first response to you, and you've been an ostrich ever since

canadianbigshot then gave you the color by numbers version

I actually thought you finally got it, then you jumped in with the paladin squad comment and went from confused to ignorant (the literal definition of the word)

Almighty...it still says you cannot spread out wounds...thats what it says...u cannot spread out wounds to multi wound models as much as possible...if you read the rest of that pg it gives a exp that shows the steps...how much more do you need...ur telling me im wrong and im only showing you the dam book...maybe you should ask ur mom to buy you the 5th ed so you can keep up

It even gives a multi wound complex exp...and says DO NOT SPREAD OUT MODELS...ur fighting the book not me

DK wrote:i look at it this way, i was corrected by about 6 people and a judge in a tournament, complex unit rules only explain single wound models, not multi wounds

if the rules were the other way, then my paliden squads would never die, i would spread out 10 wounds before any would die unless i was hit with a ID weapon. they are complex due to all having different weapons.

Well, they were wrong. Speaking as a former (former because GW US doesn't have GTs any more) GW US GT rules judge, nos and the others have it correct. And yes, that's the way your Paladins should work, if you can make each one unique.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:Almighty...it still says you cannot spread out wounds...thats what it says...u cannot spread out wounds to multi wound models as much as possible...if you read the rest of that pg it gives a exp that shows the steps...how much more do you need...ur telling me im wrong and im only showing you the dam book...maybe you should ask ur mom to buy you the 5th ed so you can keep up

It even gives a multi wound complex exp...and says DO NOT SPREAD OUT MODELS...ur fighting the book not me

Nope, YOU are the one that is misreading the rules. Deal with it.

Ok...ur all right then...i will use this to make it even harder to kill my palidins...sweet

DK wrote:Almighty...it still says you cannot spread out wounds...thats what it says...u cannot spread out wounds to multi wound models as much as possible...if you read the rest of that pg it gives a exp that shows the steps...how much more do you need...ur telling me im wrong and im only showing you the dam book...maybe you should ask ur mom to buy you the 5th ed so you can keep up

It even gives a multi wound complex exp...and says DO NOT SPREAD OUT MODELS...ur fighting the book not me

So you think that having a Paladin squad of 8 fresh terminators, with all having different kit, cannot possibly fail 5 saves after taking 7 hits and still have all units alive (because by the rules, its impossible in that situation for any to have died)?

Ur right and im wrong...i will play that way...5 wounds get spread out and do what i can to make them live as long as possible

DK wrote:Ur right and im wrong...i will play that way...5 wounds get spread out and do what i can to make them live as long as possible

Now, if they're kitted the same, you've been perfectly correct... 5 wounds would kill 2 and leave 1 halfway there... and any further wounds would have to kill the already hurt one

By the same token, its a real mess when you get 4 of one kit, 5 of another, and an apothecary (3 wound groups)

Then follow the rules on 25 for allocation, and then apply wounds to each group (killing whole models as possible, in each group


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...so in my example

22 wounding hits on that squad of 10

the group of 5 is allocated 10 wounds, the group of 4 10, and the apothecary 2 (perfectly legal)

so the group of 5 fails 3 (so one dies and one is -1)
the group of 4 fails 3 (so one dies and one is -1)
and the apothecary fails one, and is also -1

just as the rules allow it

DK wrote:Almighty...it still says you cannot spread out wounds...thats what it says...u cannot spread out wounds to multi wound models as much as possible...if you read the rest of that pg it gives a exp that shows the steps...how much more do you need...ur telling me im wrong and im only showing you the dam book...maybe you should ask ur mom to buy you the 5th ed so you can keep up

It even gives a multi wound complex exp...and says DO NOT SPREAD OUT MODELS...ur fighting the book not me

That was entirely uncalled for; if you actually bothered to read what the book said about multi-wound characters and how they're an exception to the rule you're quoting, you wouldn't have had to make yourself seem extremely rude by resorting to ad hominem attacks. Congratulations, you're the first person to make it onto my ignore list, have fun with that.

Guys - leave it, the rules are perfectly clear on this, and if DK wants to believe otherwise there comes a point when you jusdt have to let people be wrong, and move on.

Especially when theyre having to resort to petty insults

So what about a unit of scarabs or razorwings that are not complex

How is nfw complicated? Wound allocation.. if wound you roll a psy test per wound unless you have a banner or a character like Justicar with Brotherhood of psykers. Keep seeing people say all nfw just roll one test but that's incorrect.

Draigo wrote:How is nfw complicated? Wound allocation.. if wound you roll a psy test per wound unless you have a banner or a character like Justicar with Brotherhood of psykers. Keep seeing people say all nfw just roll one test but that's incorrect.

Brotherhood states that after an unsaved wound roll a psychic test and if passed ALL wounds caused by NFW that turn cause ID.

Nungunz wrote:

Draigo wrote:How is nfw complicated? Wound allocation.. if wound you roll a psy test per wound unless you have a banner or a character like Justicar with Brotherhood of psykers. Keep seeing people say all nfw just roll one test but that's incorrect.

Brotherhood states that after an unsaved wound roll a psychic test and if passed ALL wounds caused by NFW that turn cause ID.

I said unless you have a banner or a character with brotherhood you have to make a roll for each character using the force weapon. Not a difficult concept and only justicars, Knight of Flame, Paladin, Purifier etc have brotherhood of psyker. Not IC, not librarian, etc Banner auto pass.. Brotherhood one test. thats it..

Sorry, my bad, didn't get the whole thing there.

Draigo wrote:

Nungunz wrote:

Draigo wrote:How is nfw complicated? Wound allocation.. if wound you roll a psy test per wound unless you have a banner or a character like Justicar with Brotherhood of psykers. Keep seeing people say all nfw just roll one test but that's incorrect.

Brotherhood states that after an unsaved wound roll a psychic test and if passed ALL wounds caused by NFW that turn cause ID.

I said unless you have a banner or a character with brotherhood you have to make a roll for each character using the force weapon. Not a difficult concept and only justicars, Knight of Flame, Paladin, Purifier etc have brotherhood of psyker. Not IC, not librarian, etc Banner auto pass.. Brotherhood one test. thats it..

Just sayin', it's not just the Justicar/KotF etc. that has the BoP rule, the entire unit does. Otherwise they'd be pretty hosed once the Justicar-equivalent died (or, in the case of Paladins, immediately, as there's no Justicar-equivalent).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Nungunz wrote:

Draigo wrote:How is nfw complicated? Wound allocation.. if wound you roll a psy test per wound unless you have a banner or a character like Justicar with Brotherhood of psykers. Keep seeing people say all nfw just roll one test but that's incorrect.

Brotherhood states that after an unsaved wound roll a psychic test and if passed ALL wounds caused by NFW that turn cause ID.

I said unless you have a banner or a character with brotherhood you have to make a roll for each character using the force weapon. Not a difficult concept and only justicars, Knight of Flame, Paladin, Purifier etc have brotherhood of psyker. Not IC, not librarian, etc Banner auto pass.. Brotherhood one test. thats it..

Just sayin', it's not just the Justicar/KotF etc. that has the BoP rule, the entire unit does. Otherwise they'd be pretty hosed once the Justicar-equivalent died (or, in the case of Paladins, immediately, as there's no Justicar-equivalent).

Well since I repeated kotf and purifier I was saying squads and the paladin squad is different considering it say unit size is 1 to start and its in their profile but thanx. The only difference is without the justicar or kotf type character peril is taken at random.

Units of Grey Kn1ghts are psykers and use their mental might
to enhance their abilities or unleash psychic attacks.
A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn. The
unit counts as a single psyker and follows all the normal rules
for psykers, with the following clarifications:
• A Grey Knight unit uses the Leadership of its Justicar or
Knight of the Flame (if he is alive). or the unit (if he is
dead) for Psychic tests. A Grey Knight unit can never use
the Leadership value of an independent character for
Psychic tests.
• If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or
any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved
against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive)
or aga1nst a random non-character model in the squad if
the Just1car or Knight of the Flame IS dead.

I don't think I understand Draigo's stance here. First it's roll per wound, then it's comments about Justicars and banners and such. none of which matters. It's this simple. if a unit of GK wielding NFW causes a wound (or multiple wounds), they make ONE psychic test. If passed, all NFW wounds dealt by that unit for the rest of that combat phase cause Instant Death. So yes, it is simple.

I just have a quick question about this:

If I have a unit of 10 scarabs (30 wounds) and they take 10 wounds from a unit of grey knights all 10 bases removed as casualties? Or would I lose 4 bases because the wounds are taken before the force weapons are activated?

I'm under the impression of the latter as the way the force weapons read, they activate after the unit takes a wound and as all wounds are done at the same time, 3 bases would die from the wounds and 1 base would take a wound. The force weapons activate and the remaining based then suffers instant death as it suffered a wound. Now if the unit had halberds and struck at a different initiative, the force weapons would already be activated when the next models in the unit strike which would allow all of their wounds to cause ID and would make the unit remove whole bases of scarabs for each hit.

Please let me know if I'm wrong on this.

the wounds are ID causing BEFORE you remove Casualties, meaning you lose all 10 bases

Hmm so interesting idea here, vs GK it would seem non diversified nobs would be better amirite?

Example 1 vs Diversified nobs
5 NFW Wounds

PK Waaagh 1
PK Scorcha 1
PK 1
Choppa 1
Choppa Scorcha 1
Derp

Test-5 dead nobs


Example 2 vs Non-Diversified nobs

5 NFW Wounds

PK Waaggh 1
PK 2
PK 2
PK
PK
PK

Test-3 dead nobs

Right?

No, you have entirely missed the point of the thread

NFW turn EVERy wound into an ID wound. This is BEFORE you remove casualties - so either way for every wound you take you lose a nob.

Grots R OP wrote:Hmm so interesting idea here, vs GK it would seem non diversified nobs would be better amirite?

Example 1 vs Diversified nobs
5 NFW Wounds

PK Waaagh 1
PK Scorcha 1
PK 1
Choppa 1
Choppa Scorcha 1
Derp

Test-5 dead nobs


Example 2 vs Non-Diversified nobs

5 NFW Wounds

PK Waaggh 1
PK 2
PK 2
PK
PK
PK

Test-3 dead nobs

Right?

Nope. Page 26, right-hand column, "Units of Multiple-Wound Models". You have to remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound causing ID BEFORE you proceed with taking any other wounds; ID wounds break the normal sequence of wound allocation. In your example above, all five Nobz die either way.

Diversified or undiversified, Nobs die to NFWs just as badly.

OK got it, so the test is done after invul saves not after allocation. Regardless, the unsaved wounds follow ID and will trickle down the stack.

Yep, that's it. WAC shenanigans are very helpful in many circumstances, but sadly fighting Paladins is not one of them.

I was under the impression that the force weapons had to cause an unsaved wound in order to activate as all wounds had to be done simultaneously. I take 10 wounds I remove 10 wounds from the 30 wound unit of scarabs then the knights test to activate their weapons and at that point they cause instant death. Its almost like the chicken before the egg. The force weapons don't cause instant death until they do a wound and they don't do a wound until the wounds are given to the models and when they are all similar models you don't put 1 wound on each base.

p22 of the Grey Knights codex:
Force Weapons: All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death. If a unit is striking at different Initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused. Any further wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of that Psychic test.

The last sentence was what tripped me up. Models striking in different initiative order. That led me to believe what I stated above.

I don't have a dog in the fight because I only play 1 wound trooper armies so it makes no difference to me either way - a wound with a force weapon will still kill my marine/guardsman without a psychic test. They are just using hammer hand or some other [explative deleted] psychic power.