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sfshilo wrote:spending 5 points on something (from an IG perspective here) or 20 points for the heavy varient, when I can spend 5 points on a grenade launcher (5 points) or a las/auto/missile/plasma/melta (20 points) really has never worked for me.

Grenade launchers can essentially do the same job as the flamer at a longer range, or higher strength (you can choose!) minus the whole ignore cover thing. S4 AP 5 isn't killin much anyway with the flamer....

Now from a space marine perspective, there is nothing more fun then a heavy flamer hitting a bunch of annoying guard/orks/whatever sitting in cover thinking they are hot gak. (Drop pod dreads always come to mind)

You and Daedalus do have valued points, howevever, the capacity and use of the flamer in Imperial Guard Vet squads (and in General) can be just as effective on Hordes as Melta Guns are to vehicles. One of the main advantages of the flamer is that it automatically hits, doesn't scatter, and ignores cover. Other basic infantry assault weapons usually require a form of Ballistic Skill (Melta, Grenade, Shotgun, Plasma etc.) and can miss its intended target.

Secondly, Imperial Guard Vet squads have the unique ability to fire three seperate flamers from one squad, thus hitting the target unit simultaneously so your opponent cannot remove models until the entire unit is finished firing. So if each flamer hits a maxim of three models, you score nine hits plus lasguns/shotguns or pistol (if you don't want to assault), with a strength 4 weapon.

That is why I like Tau Crisis Suits with Flamers + Burst Cannons. All three fire their flamers simultaneously ontop of nine strength 5 shots, which usually kills 1/3 of a brood of Hormagaunts or Genestealers just from one unit.

A full squad of Grey Hunters +2 flamers (or WGPL w/ Combi-Flamer) rapid firing a unit that wants to assault them is an absolutely brutal combination, considering the following counter-attack.

Yeah but there is a chance that you'll either scatter completely or miss altogether

sfshilo wrote: S4 AP 5 isn't killin much anyway with the flamer....

Now from a space marine perspective, there is nothing more fun then a heavy flamer hitting a bunch of annoying guard/orks/whatever sitting in cover thinking they are hot gak. (Drop pod dreads always come to mind)

I see your point for IG, but... o_O those guardsmen and orks you mentioned are being killed very much by a flamer. You don't stand in front of marines out of cover with the boyz/guardsmen, because they will bolter you to death, quite happily. Its a good thing that cover is so easy to claim! Except then the flamer comes out. S4 AP5 is a boltguns profile- however it auto hits and denies cover saves. All of a sudden, 50% of your wounds don't vanish into the tiny pile of rubble that obscures the boyz feet

Ailaros wrote:
As for people who still like flamers, I'm curious, how effective do you think they would be if your opponents deployed and move like I do with my guardsmen?

You have a point but if I brought units only with flamers I get what I deserve IMO. But the board you ahve there has plenty of place to be outside of line of sight in order to protect my units from your long range fire power.

Seems to me like if I made a spear head of leman russ eridacators armed with heavy flamers that I put my flamer vets/special weapon team squads behind that you would be be hard pressed to kill them all/ make them run away before i got them in range, especially if I came in from a flank instead of right up the middle. not to mention that if I brought basliks or griffons your massed up units hiding behind those buildings would be in for a lot of hurt.

Don't forget that if you have your troops spread out like that and I fire mortar like things that if stuff get hits under the blast template it has to be that unit that dies, this can force your units out of cohesion making you spend part of the next turn putting them back in to cohesion.

I know your point was an anti-flamer point but if you went that far out of your way to be ideally positioned against flamers you are going to get your ass handed to you by everything else if the person brought an army that was flexable at all.

Majsharan wrote:
Seems to me like if I made a spear head of leman russ eridacators armed with heavy flamers that I put my flamer vets/special weapon team squads behind that you would be be hard pressed to kill them all/ make them run away before i got them in range, especially if I came in from a flank instead of right up the middle. not to mention that if I brought basliks or griffons your massed up units hiding behind those buildings would be in for a lot of hurt.

I know your point was an anti-flamer point but if you went that far out of your way to be ideally positioned against flamers you are going to get your ass handed to you by everything else if the person brought an army that was flexable at all.

You may want to read his battle report blog before throwing about such accusations.

And really, everyone interested in writing battle reports should as well, because they're the best on the web.