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Grey Templar wrote:The Inquisition knows the Astartes are the Emperor's will personified.

I really doubt the Inquisition believes this; for the most part Inquisitors seem to be either surprisingly secular, and those few who are religious nutjobs (such as former Sororitas) dislike the Marines specifically because of the perceived "heresies" against the Imperial Creed as teached by the Ecclesiarchy. Additionally, they are all well aware of the risk of sedition within the Astartes (most notably the Horus Heresy), robbing them of the myth of being "the Emperor's will personified". When you go by the intro in GW's Inquisitor RPG, some of the Inquisition's most powerful leaders don't even care at all what the Emperor may wish - given that they prevent Him from being reborn and wish to keep him interred as a figurehead on the Golden Throne.

When Inquisitors don't act on a Marine Chapter's refusal, they do so only because they believe that it isn't worth the time/resources, or because a rival Inquisitor who has a better relationship with that Chapter is able to block any plans for revenge.

In GW's Citadel Magazine #49, Andy Hoare once wrote an interesting article on this subject, and personally I think that the idea of a conclave sounds reasonable, as a successful resolution would create a political barrier hard to overrule by any single Astartes-friendly Inquisitor, unless he has more influence than the members of said conclave combined:

"Another thankfully rare task of these forces is to hold in check the power of the Space Marine Chapters. The relationship between the Adeptus Astartes and the Adeptus Ministorum is at times strained, as some Chapters adhere to their own views of the Imperial Creed. In any other organisation this would result in excommunication, but the Space Marines are of course a rather special case. However, the Ordo Hereticus still maintains a watch over those Chapters who they suspect of having diverged too far from approved dogma. In such cases a Conclave of Inquisitors will decide upon a course of action, and should an armed response be required this will often be entrusted to the Adepta Sororitas."

Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Inquisition knows the Astartes are the Emperor's will personified.

I really doubt the Inquisition believes this

Yeah, because they aren't.

The Living Saints are the Emperor's will personified. Astartes are as beneath Living Saints in authority as the common peasant is beneath a world's governor.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Inquisition knows the Astartes are the Emperor's will personified.

I really doubt the Inquisition believes this

Yeah, because they aren't.

The Living Saints are the Emperor's will personified. Astartes are as beneath Living Saints in authority as the common peasant is beneath a world's governor.

The Inquisition is the Emperor's Will, the Astartes are the Sword of the Emperor. Buuuuut, if the Emperor came back and saw the Ecclesiarchy, He would be disappoint. As for Astartes ignoring the Inquisition, they can, and they do. The 13th Black Crusade for example: as heretical cults began popping up, Inquisitors asking for help found Astartes Chapters refusing as they preferred to head for the Eye of Terror to join the battle. In other words, if they have good enough reason, an Inquisitor can't really force the Astartes to do anything. The Conclaves prefer to stay on generally the Astartes' good side, and if the Chapters' reason is acceptable, then they will generally prefer to side with the Astartes rather than any individual Inquisitor.

Tadashi wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Inquisition knows the Astartes are the Emperor's will personified.

I really doubt the Inquisition believes this

Yeah, because they aren't.

The Living Saints are the Emperor's will personified. Astartes are as beneath Living Saints in authority as the common peasant is beneath a world's governor.

The Inquisition is the Emperor's Will, the Astartes are the Sword of the Emperor. Buuuuut, if the Emperor came back and saw the Ecclesiarchy, He would be disappoint. As for Astartes ignoring the Inquisition, they can, and they do. The 13th Black Crusade for example: as heretical cults began popping up, Inquisitors asking for help found Astartes Chapters refusing as they preferred to head for the Eye of Terror to join the battle. In other words, if they have good enough reason, an Inquisitor can't really force the Astartes to do anything. The Conclaves prefer to stay on generally the Astartes' good side, and if the Chapters' reason is acceptable, then they will generally prefer to side with the Astartes rather than any individual Inquisitor.

But it can also be noted that Chapters will also often times help the Inquisition, because as far as brownie points go, the Inquisition ones are worth the most.

Yes, and usually when the Inquisition calls, it means the mission isn't a walk in the park. The Astartes will only refuse if there's something more important going on, like an Imperial Crusade they're involved in, or are heading for a critical war zone like the Eye of Terror, Damocles, Medusa V, Armageddon, etc.

Tadashi wrote:Buuuuut, if the Emperor came back and saw the Ecclesiarchy, He would be disappoint.

Definitively - I was merely referring to the actual political situation right now, as that is what counts.

Also, thanks for giving me the mental image of the Emperor going "Son, I am disappoint".

I've always pictured the Emperor as sounding something like Samuel L. Jackson.

"Say Chaos, motherfether! Say Chaos one more god-d*mned time!"

"High Gothic, motherfether, do you speak it?"

"Now, hand me my power-claw. It's the one that says 'Badass Motherfether' on it!"

@ Psieneus. /samjacksonvoice "IMMA TAKE THE FIGHT TO HORUS' FLAGSHIP MOTHAF*ERS, WHO IS WITH ME?"



I do not believe Astartes concern themselves with brownie points. And I don't think they give a flying rats butt what the Inquisition thinks about their own power and what not. I certainly wouldn't. I view the Astartes, Grey Knights, and Custodes as above the stupid Inquisition. And so should they. They are the backbone of the Imperium.

If a SM Chapter helps the Inquisition then it's simply because it's a good idea and the right thing to do. If they pass on offering their help then they have a better or bigger battle to wage elsewhere.

Most SM chapters, excepting the handful of surviving First Founding Legions, and the Chapters they split into, know not to piss off the Inquisition. The Inquisition, after all, has Space Marines of their own.

While the Inquisition doesn't run rough-shod over the Astartes and their sense of semi-independence, the Astartes still answer to the Inquisition when it comes to the things the Inquisition cares about. Purity of gene-seed, purity of spirit, purity of purpose, upholding the will of the God-Emperor, that sort of thing.

A Chapter that is found wanting is exterminated.

I understand that. But it seems to me like there are people in this thread and on the forum as a whole, who think the Astartes whimper and cringe to the Inquisition. I've never seen this displayed in any of the fluff or video games.

It's in both of their interests to get along. Captain Titus in the game "Space Marine" gets right in the face of that inquisitor at the end and willingly accompanies him. He showed no fear at all. I don't think any SM Chapter 'fears' the Inquisition. They merely have a mutual respect. As it should be.

Who are these people? If anything, I see a lot of posters who think that Marines don't have to answer to anyone, because the Inquisition would do nothing but puss out once some Chapter Master tells them to STFU.

Not that people wouldn't be free to believe either option if they so wish. After all, this franchise is big on individual interpretations over comprehensive consistency.

As for the supposed backbone of the Imperium, I'd say that this role clearly falls to the Imperial Guard, sorry. The Marines are neither numerous nor reliable enough to do their job.

If it were not for the Astartes, the Imperium would collapse. But... yeah if there was no IG the Imperium would collapse as well. But when the going gets super tough, the Astartes are called upon.

And no, the Astartes do not have to "answer" to anyone. They will, however, work with the Inquisition if asked 9 times out of 10 for the betterment of the Imperium.

I'd say the Imperium would be fine without the Astartes. There doesn't seem to be a problem that cannot be solved by throwing waves upon waves of bodies at it - save the problems that seem unsolvable anyways. The Space Marines are arguably the most powerful warriors of the Imperium, but their numbers are too small to make a true difference. Their actions are like a drop of water in the desert, easily changing the course of a battle, but not changing the course of the war. To make matters worse, the Traitor Legions are also amongst mankind's greatest enemies, and every so often their ranks get bolstered by a Chapter gone rogue. It almost seems to me as if the Astartes are more trouble than they are worth. Could the Horus Heresy have happened without the Space Marines?

In short: Space Marines win battles. The Imperial Guard wins the wars.

As for who the Astartes have to answer to - I know a few Inquisitors who might be inclined to disagree.

No way in hell would the Imperium be fine and dandy without the Astartes.

There is a reason the Emperor created the Space Marines. And that reason is still valid 10,000 years after his interment in the Golden Throne. Too small to make a difference? Had it not been for the Ultramarines the galaxy would be plagued by the unstoppable full force of Hive Fleet Behemoth. Also without the Grey Knights and Custodes (who are by all means, Astartes), the Imperium would have no greater defenses from Daemons and other foul Warp critters.

How could the only force capable of defending humanity against certain forces be more trouble than they are worth? The HH happening with or without SM's is neither here nor there. Games Workshop has created this fictional universe for a reason. And the Astartes are, much to the chagrin of too many people who are a fan of GW, the focal point of their fictional story.

Lynata wrote:I'd say the Imperium would be fine without the Astartes. There doesn't seem to be a problem that cannot be solved by throwing waves upon waves of bodies at it - save the problems that seem unsolvable anyways. The Space Marines are arguably the most powerful warriors of the Imperium, but their numbers are too small to make a true difference. Their actions are like a drop of water in the desert, easily changing the course of a battle, but not changing the course of the war. To make matters worse, the Traitor Legions are also amongst mankind's greatest enemies, and every so often their ranks get bolstered by a Chapter gone rogue. It almost seems to me as if the Astartes are more trouble than they are worth. Could the Horus Heresy have happened without the Space Marines?

In short: Space Marines win battles. The Imperial Guard wins the wars.

As for who the Astartes have to answer to - I know a few Inquisitors who might be inclined to disagree.

That's where your wrong, my friend. There are some enemies the Guard just can't handle. A full on daemonic incursion, as in just daemons and no mortal components, would be unstoppable by normal troops. Most of them would go mad and join Chaos. The Eldar, too, would tear Guardsmen to shreds, as would the Necrons. Heck, even Astartes have difficulty with Necrons. I'm not saying Astartes are perfect, it's just that they are still important aspects of the Imperium.

As to who the Astartes answer to, it's simple their Chapter Master, who answers to the Emperor, as stated in Index Astartes. No matter what the Inquisition thinks, the Astartes are not under their complete control. You'd raise eyebrows among the Astartes and even the Conclaves if you start saying that, maybe to the point that they'll condemn you by saying that you're unnecessarily antagonizing the Astartes/disrupting the balance of power in the Imperium.,

They aren't under their complete control but when it comes down to it if an Inquisitr is asking for an SM chapter's support he isn't doing it for the giggles so the chapter better get their ship together and go kick what needs to be kicked.
The Inquisition technically speak with the authority of the Emperor and so the SM do answer to them. Though mst Inquisitors are smart enough to know that SM get pig headed if you try to order them to do anything so asking is a better tactic...

Spetulhu wrote:The thing is, the Imperium is so massive and fragmented that even the people in command don't have a clear picture of all that is going on. The Inquisition might have the official power to order Exterminatus, but the Marines and Navy have the tools for it (and as said often carry it out as the Inquisition's ships might be nowhere near).

So while people like Marneus Calgar might not have official sanction he can do an Exterminatus - and it would be a very ballsy Inquisitor who didn't excuse Calgar as much as humanly possible in his report. It helps if the target wasn't actually very valuable compared to the sheer amount of enemies taken out. Yarrick doing Exterminatus on Armageddon just to kill Ghazgkhull would probably be executed for treason, Hero of the Empire or not.

Agreed. Pretty much anyone with the right tools can order an Exterminatus, but there will always be scrutiny and investigation after the fact. Inquisitor Darkhammer ordered an exterminatus on Cavlock, and was declared excommunicate traitorus for his efforts, after all.

Any ships captain that happens to have virus bombs on board, or can otherwise carry out an exterminatus, can do so. But if the Inquisition decides he messed up, he'll probably have his mind slowly flayed over a decade, and his crew tortured to death. Gotta make an example and keep the status quo, after all.

purplefood wrote:They aren't under their complete control but when it comes down to it if an Inquisitr is asking for an SM chapter's support he isn't doing it for the giggles so the chapter better get their sheep together and go kick what needs to be kicked.
The Inquisition technically speak with the authority of the Emperor and so the SM do answer to them. Though mst Inquisitors are smart enough to know that SM get pig headed if you try to order them to do anything so asking is a better tactic...

All true. But, even if an Inquisitor has good reason, when a Chapter refuses, they also have good reason. Look at the 13th Black Crusade, even as heretical cults began popping up and the Inquisition starts asking for help, the Astartes refused, saying their strength is more important at the Eye of Terror.

And some Chapters are untouchable, like the Second Founding ones and the Grey Knights. The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are very distrustful of the Iron Hands (because of their Mechanicum connections), the Space Wolves (they're too independent), and the Dark Angels (too secretive) but can't do anything about it. Grey Knights Purifiers are empowered to execute anyone they see unclean, barring the Emperor, so even Inquisitors have to be wary around the Grey Knights (still hate their new Codex though). And the Blood Ravens; the Ordo Hereticus suspects (correctly) that the Blood Ravens are conducting potentially heretical research in the Librarium Sanctorum, but someone high up, probably the Ordo Malleus and the Mechanicus, are blocking their inquiries. In short, if you have history or connections (or both) on your side, the Inquisition has difficulty asserting authority over you.

Tadashi wrote:

purplefood wrote:They aren't under their complete control but when it comes down to it if an Inquisitr is asking for an SM chapter's support he isn't doing it for the giggles so the chapter better get their sheep together and go kick what needs to be kicked.
The Inquisition technically speak with the authority of the Emperor and so the SM do answer to them. Though mst Inquisitors are smart enough to know that SM get pig headed if you try to order them to do anything so asking is a better tactic...

All true. But, even if an Inquisitor has good reason, when a Chapter refuses, they also have good reason. Look at the 13th Black Crusade, even as heretical cults began popping up and the Inquisition starts asking for help, the Astartes refused, saying their strength is more important at the Eye of Terror.

And some Chapters are untouchable, like the Second Founding ones and the Grey Knights. The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are very distrustful of the Iron Hands (because of their Mechanicum connections), the Space Wolves (they're too independent), and the Dark Angels (too secretive) but can't do anything about it. Grey Knights Purifiers are empowered to execute anyone they see unclean, barring the Emperor, so even Inquisitors have to be wary around the Grey Knight (still hate their new Codex though). And the Blood Ravens; the Ordo Hereticus suspects (correctly) that the Blood Ravens are conducting potentially heretical research in the Librarium Sanctorum, but someone high up, probably the Ordo Malleus and the Mechanicus, are blocking their inquiries. In short, if you have history or connections (or both) on your side, the Inquisition has difficulty to assert it's authority on you.

Most of those chapters have political connections...
The SW, for example, have friends in every organisation. AdMech, Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition. They owe and are owed favours from almost every arm of the Imperium.
The 13th Black Crusade was an exception rather than a rule. There will be times when a chapter cannot assist an Inquisitor but those times tend to be all out invasions or when the chapter is severely understrength.
GK have always had purview to execute Inquisitors they find heretical. It's just that few are dumb enough to be heretical in front of a GK...
Blood Ravens just haven't let the Inquisition find any proof...

purplefood wrote:
Blood Ravens just haven't let the Inquisition find any proof...

And the inquiries concerning gene-seed (Thousand Sons/Sons of Horus?) are blocked by someone high up in the Mechanicus. And the Ordo Malleus probably knows something, since they were the one who could have sealed pre-M37 Blood Raven histories, and that Grey Knights were involved in the Dark Crusade (with no mention of post-campaign mindwipe) indicates the Blood Ravens are also well-connected.

Tadashi wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Blood Ravens just haven't let the Inquisition find any proof...

And the inquiries concerning gene-seed (Thousand Sons/Sons of Horus?) are blocked by someone high up in the Mechanicus. And the Ordo Malleus probably knows something, since they were the one who could have sealed pre-M37 Blood Raven histories, and that Grey Knights were involved in the Dark Crusade (with no mention of post-campaign mindwipe) indicates the Blood Ravens are also well-connected.

Yeah but even connections don't help if you have the kind of wide scale heresy that the BR did.
As it is their... inconsistancies are ebign covered by either friends they know they have or friends they don't know they have...

Apparently, those friends don't want the Blood Ravens to disappear, since their research could be potentially useful to the Imperium, or would seriously piss the Knights off.

Tadashi wrote:The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are very distrustful of the Iron Hands (because of their Mechanicum connections), the Space Wolves (they're too independent), and the Dark Angels (too secretive) but can't do anything about it.

Technically, they can always simply attack. The only question is whether the individual who organizes a strike has the pull to request a force large enough to deal with the situation.

For what its worth, "skirmishes" between the Astartes and various Imperial forces closer to Terra happen all the time.

purplefood wrote:The SW, for example, have friends in every organisation. AdMech, Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition. They owe and are owed favours from almost every arm of the Imperium.

Huh? Granted, I haven't heard anything about the Mechanicus, but at least concerning the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition I have heard nothing but enmity. In their history, the Space Wolves have quarreled with pretty much every Imperial organization in existence (with the exception of the AdMech, though that is just to my knowledge) and suffered several full-scale assaults on their homeworld from said factions. The only reason they're still around is because they are protected by their popularity amongst the playerbase; GW cannot afford to simply "squat" them.

Though it begs the question as to why they keep writing up these conflicts if they know full well that there cannot be any consequences to them. Sometimes, this eternal stalemate is really annoying. Anyhow, what friends do they have, exactly?

Tadashi wrote:All true. But, even if an Inquisitor has good reason, when a Chapter refuses, they also have good reason

Incorrect. Unless privy to breaking news, an Astartes chapter will never have all the information. For example:

The 13th Black Crusade. Inquisitor discovers a dimensional forge that if recovered and deployed to Cadia could prevent any and all Daemonic incursions, and could concievably 'shut down' part of the Eye of Terror itself, ending the 13th Black Crusade early.

He requests the aid of the Astartes, who refuse because they have 'a good reason' of going to fight at the Eye.

This is obviously a hypothetical, but it's an example of what could happen. An Inquisitor asks what he asks because he KNOWS what the best use of the Astartes is, while the Astartes themselves do not.

Tadashi wrote:And some Chapters are untouchable, like the Second Founding ones and the Grey Knights. The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are very distrustful of the Iron Hands (because of their Mechanicum connections), the Space Wolves (they're too independent), and the Dark Angels (too secretive) but can't do anything about it. Grey Knights Purifiers are empowered to execute anyone they see unclean, barring the Emperor, so even Inquisitors have to be wary around the Grey Knights (still hate their new Codex though). And the Blood Ravens; the Ordo Hereticus suspects (correctly) that the Blood Ravens are conducting potentially heretical research in the Librarium Sanctorum, but someone high up, probably the Ordo Malleus and the Mechanicus, are blocking their inquiries. In short, if you have history or connections (or both) on your side, the Inquisition has difficulty asserting authority over you.

Firstly, no. Purifiers DO NOT have a blanket authority to execute anyone who isn't entirely pure of spirit. Secondly, ANY chapter that crosses the line will be declared Excommunicate Traitorus. Even the Ultramarines or Black Templars. The Inquisition may not like the Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Iron Hands, but none of those chapters have actively crossed the line.

I mean, just look at the Badab war! Authority ultimately rests with the Inquisition, not the Marines.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are very distrustful of the Iron Hands (because of their Mechanicum connections), the Space Wolves (they're too independent), and the Dark Angels (too secretive) but can't do anything about it.

Technically, they can always simply attack. The only question is whether the individual who organizes a strike has the pull to request a force large enough to deal with the situation.

Yeah, and risk incurring the wrath of all Chapters descended from those Chapters. The Conclaves aren't gonna be pleased either, seeing as this would be extremely disturbing to the Imperium's balance of power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:And some Chapters are untouchable, like the Second Founding ones and the Grey Knights. The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are very distrustful of the Iron Hands (because of their Mechanicum connections), the Space Wolves (they're too independent), and the Dark Angels (too secretive) but can't do anything about it. Grey Knights Purifiers are empowered to execute anyone they see unclean, barring the Emperor, so even Inquisitors have to be wary around the Grey Knights (still hate their new Codex though). And the Blood Ravens; the Ordo Hereticus suspects (correctly) that the Blood Ravens are conducting potentially heretical research in the Librarium Sanctorum, but someone high up, probably the Ordo Malleus and the Mechanicus, are blocking their inquiries. In short, if you have history or connections (or both) on your side, the Inquisition has difficulty asserting authority over you.

Firstly, no. Purifiers DO NOT have a blanket authority to execute anyone who isn't entirely pure of spirit. Secondly, ANY chapter that crosses the line will be declared Excommunicate Traitorus. Even the Ultramarines or Black Templars. The Inquisition may not like the Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Iron Hands, but none of those chapters have actively crossed the line.

I mean, just look at the Badab war! Authority ultimately rests with the Inquisition, not the Marines.

You can't touch the Ultramarines! All Ultramarines-descended Chapters would go up in flames, and that means 3/5ths of the Astartes. You'd have the entire Ultramarines Legion marching towards Terra if you do that, and there's no telling how many other Chapters/Legions would side with them, or for that matter Mechanicum, Guard , Naval elements.

And yes, Purifiers do have blanket authority. It says so in Codex: Grey Knights, courtesy of Matt Ward.

Tadashi wrote:You can't touch the Ultramarines! All Ultramarines-descended Chapters would go up in flames, and that means 3/5ths of the Astartes. You'd have the entire Ultramarines Legion marching towards Terra if you do that, and there's no telling how many other Chapters/Legions would side with them, or for that matter Mechanicum, Guard , Naval elements.

Anyone, under the right circumstances, can and will be touched. Ultramarines or not, they can and will be destroyed if necessary. Why would ANY of their successor chapters join their side if they are declared heretics and traitors? Who says their successor chapters would join their side ANYWAY? Maybe a lot of them resent the Ultramarines for their elevated status and glory? Maybe a lot of the would jump at the opportunity to prove that they are superior to the Ultras?

And yes, Purifiers do have blanket authority. It says so in Codex: Grey Knights, courtesy of Matt Ward.

I've got the Grey Knight codex right in front of me. It doesn't say that anywhere.

What does it say exactly? As for the Ultramarines, it's gonna set a bad precedent, and could set off a massive civil war that could mark the beginning of the end...and even if they do have bad blood with their parent Chapter, they'll still come to their aid; look at the Baal Crisis - when Lord Dante called, even renegade Blood Angel descendants and those who don't get along well with the parent Chapter came. Blood is thicker than water still holds true in 40k.

Tadashi wrote:Yeah, and risk incurring the wrath of all Chapters descended from those Chapters. The Conclaves aren't gonna be pleased either, seeing as this would be extremely disturbing to the Imperium's balance of power.

Well, last time Fenris was attacked by Imperial forces, the Space Wolves were on their own. The time before that, they were on their own also. They seem to be pretty much the - wait for it - lone wolves in the Imperium.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Yeah, and risk incurring the wrath of all Chapters descended from those Chapters. The Conclaves aren't gonna be pleased either, seeing as this would be extremely disturbing to the Imperium's balance of power.

Well, last time Fenris was attacked by Imperial forces, the Space Wolves were on their own. The time before that, they were on their own also. They seem to be pretty much the - wait for it - lone wolves in the Imperium.

The Dark Angels and the other Unforgiven count for 1/5th of all Astartes. Attacking would not be wise.

Tadashi wrote:The Dark Angels and the other Unforgiven count for 1/5th of all Astartes. Attacking would not be wise.

It's not a case of whether or not it would be wise. Only the inquisitor in question would know if it were wise or not.

But if it was deemed necessary, then the Inquisition would do so.