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I'm still thinking that scouting hellhound squadron should fry just about any and all sniper based teams.

cover? meh, armor? lolz. In your face quickly with extra range now? ya. I think it's over hyped if you don't bring the right counters.

Hellfury missles would also be somewhat effective vs other IG snipers like ratlings anyway. Scouts/deathmarks could still survive unfortunately.

Old lists gotta adapt.

Lothar wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Lord commissar can take a different armor from standard troops, meaning he is a different armor save thus he cannot be targetted.

As for ST, you can now kit it out with something aside from melta, now that they can do better with their weaponry. If you fear snipers so badly, give them the rerollable DS, grenade launchers or flamers, deepstrike them next to the snipers, and kill them. Or you could bunker down in terrain with nade launcher + scout, or plasma guns.

Or even make them a MC + tank killer with melta + nade, with grenade launcher now halving WS (meaning halving WS on moving vehicles to 5), you can charge, attach krak grenades, and if that fails, use the melta gun and fire away. You'd be kitted for massive monsters, and vehicles.

Lord Commissar is an IC. He can be targeted in CC, different armour will not change this.

ST killing snipers...maybe, but very luck dependend. They will probably be somewhere in cover and you would need to DS very carefully. Also you need those reserves to come VERY soon, before the snipers do their job. But still, good idea. Your other ST ideas do not seem viable to me.

Keep him out of the 3" attack range, either that or give him a power weapon as well for the 5++ and hope he survives long enough. I thought most IG players kept him away from the direct front lines for his LD 10 bubble, not in the thick of combat.

An astropath would easily get them in, and even if you deepstrike into cover, you can take flamers to void that advantage. (Probably so, since pathfinders are a otherwise to shoot)

As for the other, I've seen some successful players with the new ruleset charge a rhino, pop it with krak grenades (on an engage movement of course), and hellgun the 10 strong sternguard inside after it broke down. While I cannot say if this is the usual thing, it certainly does raise some new thoughts on transport popping with assault.

Lothar wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Lord commissar can take a different armor from standard troops, meaning he is a different armor save thus he cannot be targetted.

As for ST, you can now kit it out with something aside from melta, now that they can do better with their weaponry. If you fear snipers so badly, give them the rerollable DS, grenade launchers or flamers, deepstrike them next to the snipers, and kill them. Or you could bunker down in terrain with nade launcher + scout, or plasma guns.

Or even make them a MC + tank killer with melta + nade, with grenade launcher now halving WS (meaning halving WS on moving vehicles to 5), you can charge, attach krak grenades, and if that fails, use the melta gun and fire away. You'd be kitted for massive monsters, and vehicles.

Lord Commissar is an IC. He can be targeted in CC, different armour will not change this.

ST killing snipers...maybe, but very luck dependend. They will probably be somewhere in cover and you would need to DS very carefully. Also you need those reserves to come VERY soon, before the snipers do their job. But still, good idea. Your other ST ideas do not seem viable to me.

Rerollable DS and an Astropath should take care of most of the DS issues (ninja'd). Otherwise like has been said, stick a conscript squad in front to cancel out the directed hits (and can also be a nice "Look out, Sarge! shield) while you step up and FRFSRF the sniper squad into oblivion...or if you get a strat point, give the blob shielded.

Just a thought - but would directed hits be better if you had to have LOS to the target (when shooting) or be within 3" (in CC)?

This would mean that if your opponent is fielding snipers your squad leaders etc would have to hug cover if they didn't want to be shot at, but at the expense of not having as many tactical options (due to the number of rules in 6th that require LOS by your squad leader).

This is after all the primary role of 'real' snipers - forcing an opponent to hug dirt and react slowly or risk getting shot. If you're dumb enough to walk in front of them you will (rightly) get your head blown off.


Just my £0.02 but if that makes it into the final version I want cookies

All this talk of conscripts makes me wanna put on my commander chenkov hat lol

@ Chimera_Calvin: I think that would be a nice, fluffy way to temper it a little.

Another thought, with the new flyer rules, doing strafing runs and having stormtroopers drop off the back, rerolling the scatter helps prevent them from dying, troopers are nasty themselves, as are strafing runs.

Lothar wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
In close combat, blob squads will have 3-5 guys with power weapons, putting them in a different armor group than the majority, so directed attacks will not be able to take characters out in close combat. Lord Commissars offer another option yet again.

The problem is that enemy units will "direct hits" your guys at range. In CC, you will not have any special character left. In CC, Lord Commissar will die horribly (too horribly for his point cost).

So you decided to ignore my whole argument about why directed hits at range are more of an advantage than a disadvantage for Guard?

I get your reservations on stormtroopers, however. I think they're better across the board, but they were pretty overpointed already, so I'm not sure it's enough.

The only viable IG list in the "new" rules would be spamming snipervets with scout.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Biophysical wrote:

Lothar wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
In close combat, blob squads will have 3-5 guys with power weapons, putting them in a different armor group than the majority, so directed attacks will not be able to take characters out in close combat. Lord Commissars offer another option yet again.

The problem is that enemy units will "direct hits" your guys at range. In CC, you will not have any special character left. In CC, Lord Commissar will die horribly (too horribly for his point cost).

So you decided to ignore my whole argument about why directed hits at range are more of an advantage than a disadvantage for Guard?

I get your reservations on stormtroopers, however. I think they're better across the board, but they were pretty overpointed already, so I'm not sure it's enough.

No the point is that they won't make it to combat in the first place. Your enemy will kill your sargents/commissars in one turn, and make them go to ground with -3 Ld, so your blob will be taking a pinning test at Ld4, and in all liklihood a morale test at Ld6.

Are you intentionally ignoring my initial post? I presented an argument about how ranged directed hits was a net gain for the Guard. I referenced it in the line you quoted me saying.

In case it wasn't clear, here's the basics:
1.) Only Sniper Rifles and Covering Fire provide directed hits at ranges >12".
2.) Sniper Rifles are only fielded in large amounts in a few armies, and only by units with 4+ saves or worse.
3.) Covering Fire is unlikely in most armies due to the inability of squads to get >18 shots at >12" range. Orcs, Grey Knights, and Eldar can do this, but it requires large squads to be successful, and it requires the squad leader not to fire.
4.) Guard can reliably do covering fire with a 130 point, 20 man squad (2 Infantry Squads, 2 Plasma Guns). In this case, the directed attack is probably a plasma gun, which will be a more effective directed attack than any other weapon that can move and fire.
5.) Sniper Rifles are heavy weapons, so their users will be stationary, therefore easier to hit. Lightly armored snipers in 5+ base cover are dead meat against effectively BS4 Guardsmen.
6.) If you want your own Snipers squad, Ratlings are the most cost effective in the bunch.

Biophysical wrote:5.) Sniper Rifles are heavy weapons, so their users will be stationary, therefore easier to hit. Lightly armored snipers in 5+ base cover are dead meat against effectively BS4 Guardsmen.

Deathmarks...rapid fire and 3+ armor.

But yes, at this point he is either trolling/flamebaiting, or being remarkably alarmist and dense.

Good point about Deathmarks. I'm not very familiar with Necrons, and didn't consider them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Going back to the main purpose of this thread. I think that Sentinels might be a nice close combat unit. While Guard with flamers can get killed by most enemy units before getting to use their Fire Sweep, Sentinels, at least armored ones, could fare better. A unit of 3 is 180 points, is very durable in assault (perhaps, walker combat rules are somewhat thin in this document), and charges with 3d6 S5 AP4 hits. They are also (hopefully) durable enough to pin combat units for a while, allowing any number of good Guard counter assault units to Alpha Strike trapped enemies.

Biophysical wrote:1.) Only Sniper Rifles and Covering Fire provide directed hits at ranges >12".

Except that now you can move 6" and still fire out to 24, meaning any rapid fire weapon now has a 30" covering fire range (unless you're tau, holy crap). Plus, there's basically no penalty to using covering fire, so it's not like people will just use it all the time.

Biophysical wrote:2.) Sniper Rifles are only fielded in large amounts in a few armies, and only by units with 4+ saves or worse.

Few? I can only think of a couple of armies that have NO sniper weapons (demons and CSM), most armies you come across will have access to them as troops to boot.

The fact that they only have a 4+ misses the point that they're very cheap, so you can spam lots of them, so they have plenty of overall resilience.

Biophysical wrote:3.) Covering Fire is unlikely in most armies due to the inability of squads to get >18 shots at >12" range. Orcs, Grey Knights, and Eldar can do this, but it requires large squads to be successful, and it requires the squad leader not to fire.

Getting 18 shots is rare? A 10-man tac squad puts that out no sweat. More importantly, it says you can take any hit and count it as direct, so it's not going to be a bolter, but it's going to be the multimelta that always gets the honor.

Plus, you don't REQUIRE 18 shots for it to work, it's nearly as likely to work with 17 or 16, etc.

Biophysical wrote:4.) Guard can reliably do covering fire with a 130 point, 20 man squad (2 Infantry Squads, 2 Plasma Guns). In this case, the directed attack is probably a plasma gun, which will be a more effective directed attack than any other weapon that can move and fire.

Yes, it's going to be easier for guard, but it's still not a net benefit when accompanied with sniper rifles. Given how much easier it is to kill a guardsman with a sniper rifle, it's going to be much more likely that you're going to be shooting with nothing but lasguns.

But what if you keep the squad behind another squad so they can't get sniped? Well, then you can't use directed hit yourself, and you just gave your opponent a cover save...

Biophysical wrote:5.) Sniper Rifles are heavy weapons, so their users will be stationary, therefore easier to hit. Lightly armored snipers in 5+ base cover are dead meat against effectively BS4 Guardsmen.

?

They're still shooting lasguns. Which is all they'll have left in the squad once the snipers are done with it. Plus, it's not like your opponent can one-two punch with snipers and something else.

Biophysical wrote:6.) If you want your own Snipers squad, Ratlings are the most cost effective in the bunch.

Certainly this is an actual benefit to the guard. Ratlings will quickly go from like the third worst unit in the codex to the best. If only they'd get decent models (still...)

Captain Roderick wrote:power weapon in CC means different armour group, woo!

That wasn't completely obvious to me, actually. They get an invul save, but the armor save is the same.

If it is true, then power weapons on everything just became literally obligatory. Not too much of a problem for power blobs, but it basically removes the ability to take shooting blobs as not only have they become more expensive, but the guys who have the plasma guns or lascannons have no such benefit, meaning that any shooty blob can be pretty quickly reduced to a really expensive power blob.

Ailaros, you are correct, within 12" it's easy to get directed hits with Covering Fire, although it's much easier to get it with that Squad Leader's Bolter, Plasma Pistol, whatever, as he is a character. I don't consider 12" directed hits to be that dangerous, because Guard have so many ways to utterly destroy units at close range. That is my opinion.

Minor quibble with your analysis otherwise: There is a penalty to using covering fire. It's a shooting action, so the character cannot fire its own weapon if covering fire is used. This is usually minor, but it means Covering fire is probably going to only be used if it has a good chance of working.

Furthermore, the Special Training stratagem should not be quickly discounted. For one point you can give a squad Shielded. This means that your opponent can either go second, giving you a chance to damage fragile stationary sniper squads with textbook Guard firepower, or you can pick a few of the most important units in your army to make Shielded, allowing them to ignore the directed hits from all those theoretically spammed sniper squads.

I think this is the whole point of Stratagems, really. They let you respond a little easier gimmick lists.

Except that now you can move 6" and still fire out to 24, meaning any rapid fire weapon now has a 30" covering fire range (unless you're tau, holy crap). Plus, there's basically no penalty to using covering fire, so it's not like people will just use it all the time.

Deathmarks are the Only sniper with rapid fire, rest are heavy. As for covering fire, you get one shot if three six's happen, and that wound still can't always go through.

Few? I can only think of a couple of armies that have NO sniper weapons (demons and CSM), most armies you come across will have access to them as troops to boot.

The fact that they only have a 4+ misses the point that they're very cheap, so you can spam lots of them, so they have plenty of overall resilience.

Tanks, artillery, deepstriking stormtroopers with flamethrowers.. The cheapest troop choice would be scouts, and they hit on a BS3, or hell, just ignore them, rush the objectives, and laugh at their heavy 1 for being unable to move and shoot. (deathmarks are the exception). IG has so many options for dealing with ranged things that I'm shocked your obviously missing most of them.

Getting 18 shots is rare? A 10-man tac squad puts that out no sweat. More importantly, it says you can take any hit and count it as direct, so it's not going to be a bolter, but it's going to be the multimelta that always gets the honor.

So a multimelta can fire on the move now? You can only fire two shots out of a vehicle on the hatch with its relentless 18" bubble, and if your in range for the multimelta to hit you and you stand there, you deserve that directed hit (Pssst, the book even says heavy weapons are good for this)

But what if you keep the squad behind another squad so they can't get sniped? Well, then you can't use directed hit yourself, and you just gave your opponent a cover save..

Are..you reading the book at all? Are you just being intentionally dense now? Your own troops can only give a cover save to your OWN troops when you declare a LOOK OUT SARGE action, you are not suddenly going to give the enemy cover saves, you are not suddenly going to allow him to suddenly "I choose your troop to take the critical hits." What are you reading?

They're still shooting lasguns. Which is all they'll have left in the squad once the snipers are done with it. Plus, it's not like your opponent can one-two punch with snipers and something else.

You know how people killed snipers? Artillery, you're IG, you have so many options to provide bombardment, cover is now only 5+, go nuts and blow them away, you have grenade launchers, mortars, and other things on your infantry alone.

Certainly this is an actual benefit to the guard. Ratlings will quickly go from like the third worst unit in the codex to the best. If only they'd get decent models (still...)

Tanks.

Not too much of a problem for power blobs, but it basically removes the ability to take shooting blobs as not only have they become more expensive, but the guys who have the plasma guns or lascannons have no such benefit, meaning that any shooty blob can be pretty quickly reduced to a really expensive power blob.

You're basically ignoring all the ways to protect things from directed hits at this point, aren't you? Orks have learned for years how to use grots to give cover saves in 5th and you can't figure this out now?

Ailaros wrote:Except that now you can move 6" and still fire out to 24, meaning any rapid fire weapon now has a 30" covering fire range (unless you're tau, holy crap). Plus, there's basically no penalty to using covering fire, so it's not like people will just use it all the time.

Again, screen the units you want to protect from it, and they can't use it.

Few? I can only think of a couple of armies that have NO sniper weapons (demons and CSM), most armies you come across will have access to them as troops to boot.

The fact that they only have a 4+ misses the point that they're very cheap, so you can spam lots of them, so they have plenty of overall resilience.

Demons, CSM, DE can only get them in the few hex rifles they can field, GK, Orcs, SoB, Tau, Nids. And while good for Directed Hits, they still aren't great for much else, so spaming them is probably a bad idea when you opponent can easily protect against the DH and brings a much more balanced list to the table.

Getting 18 shots is rare? A 10-man tac squad puts that out no sweat. More importantly, it says you can take any hit and count it as direct, so it's not going to be a bolter, but it's going to be the multimelta that always gets the honor.

Plus, you don't REQUIRE 18 shots for it to work, it's nearly as likely to work with 17 or 16, etc.

Screen, blow them out of their transports before they get there, shoot em up before they can close to rapidfire range, and they will never get those three 6s.

Yes, it's going to be easier for guard, but it's still not a net benefit when accompanied with sniper rifles. Given how much easier it is to kill a guardsman with a sniper rifle, it's going to be much more likely that you're going to be shooting with nothing but lasguns.

But what if you keep the squad behind another squad so they can't get sniped? Well, then you can't use directed hit yourself, and you just gave your opponent a cover save...

Intervening squads don't give a cover save in the PDF ruleset, and you have ratlings if you want to do Directed Fire yourself, so screen away.

?

They're still shooting lasguns. Which is all they'll have left in the squad once the snipers are done with it. Plus, it's not like your opponent can one-two punch with snipers and something else.

...and 20-30 lasguns with FRFSRF can be perfectly effective at cutting down a sniper squad. Or if you are really that worried about them, bring a colossus or two, or drop a ST squad on them, or use a hellhound, etc.

Out of curiosity, is there any codex out right now that uses coaxial weapons? That twin-linked rule will be amazing for any army that can take advantage of it.

creeping-deth87 wrote:Out of curiosity, is there any codex out right now that uses coaxial weapons? That twin-linked rule will be amazing for any army that can take advantage of it.

razorbacks

Grundz wrote:

creeping-deth87 wrote:Out of curiosity, is there any codex out right now that uses coaxial weapons? That twin-linked rule will be amazing for any army that can take advantage of it.

razorbacks

Oh well that's just frickin' dandy. If there's one thing Razorbacks needed, it was twin-linked weapons. Wonderful.

Grundz wrote:

creeping-deth87 wrote:Out of curiosity, is there any codex out right now that uses coaxial weapons? That twin-linked rule will be amazing for any army that can take advantage of it.

razorbacks

There is nothing in the Razorback's description, the new ruleset, or the accompanying updates that specifies the Razorback's armament as coaxial. As of right now, the only vehicles with coaxial weapons are Forge World or superheavies. The new ruleset includes rules for super-heavy vehicles, so it makes sense that they would include the coaxial rule despite the lack of units with it.

Thinking more about non-sniper related issues, Ogryn got some advantages and disadvantages in the rule set. Not getting to shoot with their Ripper Guns is a problem, and since they don't have a CCW, they don't get the +1 attack bonus for having an assault weapon as secondary. Wound allocation helps them out a little, though. They will be pretty much guaranteed to swing with every model, since whole models won't be taken off until "Patch Up" in the Consolidation phase. The Bone'ead is a pretty serious dude, so his attacks (both in close combat and with the Ripper) being Directed is pretty nice. Five swings at S6 on the charge at anyone in the majority armor group is cool. Against tanks they're a bit better, Since tanks count as WS 10 when moving, it means Ogryns will hit even fast vehicles on 5's with their S6 attacks. AP- doesn't seem to reduce damage table results, so Ripper Guns are a little better at hitting light armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it will be much harder to insta-kill them, since the basic Instant Death only does two wounds. At least that means they can fight Grey Knights, take a bunch of 2 wound force weapon hits, swing with everyone, then only lose the models in Consolidation.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Biophysical wrote:5.) Sniper Rifles are heavy weapons, so their users will be stationary, therefore easier to hit. Lightly armored snipers in 5+ base cover are dead meat against effectively BS4 Guardsmen.

Deathmarks...rapid fire and 3+ armor.

But yes, at this point he is either trolling/flamebaiting, or being remarkably alarmist and dense.

Eldar rangers
3+ cover save
hit on 2+
How is that alarmist? Say goodbye to your sargents and special weapons because they're gone.

Joey wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Biophysical wrote:5.) Sniper Rifles are heavy weapons, so their users will be stationary, therefore easier to hit. Lightly armored snipers in 5+ base cover are dead meat against effectively BS4 Guardsmen.

Deathmarks...rapid fire and 3+ armor.

But yes, at this point he is either trolling/flamebaiting, or being remarkably alarmist and dense.

Eldar rangers
3+ cover save
hit on 2+
How is that alarmist? Say goodbye to your sargents and special weapons because they're gone.

You've ignored every single post on how to stop directed hits in this entire thread haven't you? Kinda futile continuing this when you so blatantly ignore everything.

Anyways, hellhounds, flamers, anything that denies cover, saturate the area in lots of blasts.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Joey wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Biophysical wrote:5.) Sniper Rifles are heavy weapons, so their users will be stationary, therefore easier to hit. Lightly armored snipers in 5+ base cover are dead meat against effectively BS4 Guardsmen.

Deathmarks...rapid fire and 3+ armor.

But yes, at this point he is either trolling/flamebaiting, or being remarkably alarmist and dense.

Eldar rangers
3+ cover save
hit on 2+
How is that alarmist? Say goodbye to your sargents and special weapons because they're gone.

You've ignored every single post on how to stop directed hits in this entire thread haven't you? Kinda futile continuing this when you so blatantly ignore everything.

Anyways, hellhounds, flamers, anything that denies cover, saturate the area in lots of blasts.

Oh your hellhounds can deploy right next to enemy units? That's pretty sweet but mine have to actually move up first. That's "only" two or three turns of two units each wiping out a sarge/special weapon. So that's 4-6 squads rendered useless.
I hadn't thought of blast templates! They ignore cover with YOUR ruleset apparently, but in the version I read they don't.
Also it's a good job those enemy snipers will be the ONLY thing they're using. I can ignore all their other anti-tank/anti-personel stuff in persuit of 3++ infantry.

Joey wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Joey wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Biophysical wrote:5.) Sniper Rifles are heavy weapons, so their users will be stationary, therefore easier to hit. Lightly armored snipers in 5+ base cover are dead meat against effectively BS4 Guardsmen.

Deathmarks...rapid fire and 3+ armor.

But yes, at this point he is either trolling/flamebaiting, or being remarkably alarmist and dense.

Eldar rangers
3+ cover save
hit on 2+
How is that alarmist? Say goodbye to your sargents and special weapons because they're gone.

You've ignored every single post on how to stop directed hits in this entire thread haven't you? Kinda futile continuing this when you so blatantly ignore everything.

Anyways, hellhounds, flamers, anything that denies cover, saturate the area in lots of blasts.

Oh your hellhounds can deploy right next to enemy units? That's pretty sweet but mine have to actually move up first. That's "only" two or three turns of two units each wiping out a sarge/special weapon. So that's 4-6 squads rendered useless.
I hadn't thought of blast templates! They ignore cover with YOUR ruleset apparently, but in the version I read they don't.
Also it's a good job those enemy snipers will be the ONLY thing they're using. I can ignore all their other anti-tank/anti-personel stuff in persuit of 3++ infantry.

We've suggested several tactics to protect your sarge/special weapons, you can make a screen with units because directed fire cannot work through covering units, either that or protect them with your own vehicles for the cover save.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Joey wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Joey wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Biophysical wrote:5.) Sniper Rifles are heavy weapons, so their users will be stationary, therefore easier to hit. Lightly armored snipers in 5+ base cover are dead meat against effectively BS4 Guardsmen.

Deathmarks...rapid fire and 3+ armor.

But yes, at this point he is either trolling/flamebaiting, or being remarkably alarmist and dense.

Eldar rangers
3+ cover save
hit on 2+
How is that alarmist? Say goodbye to your sargents and special weapons because they're gone.

You've ignored every single post on how to stop directed hits in this entire thread haven't you? Kinda futile continuing this when you so blatantly ignore everything.

Anyways, hellhounds, flamers, anything that denies cover, saturate the area in lots of blasts.

Oh your hellhounds can deploy right next to enemy units? That's pretty sweet but mine have to actually move up first. That's "only" two or three turns of two units each wiping out a sarge/special weapon. So that's 4-6 squads rendered useless.
I hadn't thought of blast templates! They ignore cover with YOUR ruleset apparently, but in the version I read they don't.
Also it's a good job those enemy snipers will be the ONLY thing they're using. I can ignore all their other anti-tank/anti-personel stuff in persuit of 3++ infantry.

We've suggested several tactics to protect your sarge/special weapons, you can make a screen with units because directed fire cannot work through covering units, either that or protect them with your own vehicles for the cover save.

Oh that's okay then.
Hey you never know, might pass all those Ld4 pinning tests.
Guess I'm just whinging.

Joey wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Biophysical wrote:5.) Sniper Rifles are heavy weapons, so their users will be stationary, therefore easier to hit. Lightly armored snipers in 5+ base cover are dead meat against effectively BS4 Guardsmen.

Deathmarks...rapid fire and 3+ armor.

But yes, at this point he is either trolling/flamebaiting, or being remarkably alarmist and dense.

Eldar rangers
3+ cover save
hit on 2+
How is that alarmist? Say goodbye to your sargents and special weapons because they're gone.

Maybe yours are. Mine are doing just peachy behind their infantry screens that deny directed hits.

Oh your hellhounds can deploy right next to enemy units? That's pretty sweet but mine have to actually move up first. That's "only" two or three turns of two units each wiping out a sarge/special weapon. So that's 4-6 squads rendered useless.
I hadn't thought of blast templates! They ignore cover with YOUR ruleset apparently, but in the version I read they don't.
Also it's a good job those enemy snipers will be the ONLY thing they're using. I can ignore all their other anti-tank/anti-personel stuff in persuit of 3++ infantry.

It's a good thing those enemy snipers are ignoring all my anti-tank/anti-personel stuff in pursuit of my sgts and special weapons that they can't use their directed fire against. See, considering things in a vaccum fails on both sides of the argument. I stand by my orignal statement.

Joey wrote:

Spoiler:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Joey wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Joey wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Biophysical wrote:5.) Sniper Rifles are heavy weapons, so their users will be stationary, therefore easier to hit. Lightly armored snipers in 5+ base cover are dead meat against effectively BS4 Guardsmen.

Deathmarks...rapid fire and 3+ armor.

But yes, at this point he is either trolling/flamebaiting, or being remarkably alarmist and dense.

Eldar rangers
3+ cover save
hit on 2+
How is that alarmist? Say goodbye to your sargents and special weapons because they're gone.

You've ignored every single post on how to stop directed hits in this entire thread haven't you? Kinda futile continuing this when you so blatantly ignore everything.

Anyways, hellhounds, flamers, anything that denies cover, saturate the area in lots of blasts.

Oh your hellhounds can deploy right next to enemy units? That's pretty sweet but mine have to actually move up first. That's "only" two or three turns of two units each wiping out a sarge/special weapon. So that's 4-6 squads rendered useless.
I hadn't thought of blast templates! They ignore cover with YOUR ruleset apparently, but in the version I read they don't.
Also it's a good job those enemy snipers will be the ONLY thing they're using. I can ignore all their other anti-tank/anti-personel stuff in persuit of 3++ infantry.

We've suggested several tactics to protect your sarge/special weapons, you can make a screen with units because directed fire cannot work through covering units, either that or protect them with your own vehicles for the cover save.

Oh that's okay then.
Hey you never know, might pass all those Ld4 pinning tests.

Guess I'm just whinging.

Actually, it's whining. But don't feel alone, i'm in the same whining boat.......

If my Eldar opponents decide to stock up on 24 point, T3 models that my lasguns can hit on 3+, I won't protest. They could critically hit and wound automatically and I would feel like Guard come out ahead on this matchup.

Wow, what's with this frothing at the mouth about screening?

Last I checked, conscripts don't get cover (including from intervening enemy units), and when you can finagle it so that your screener unit does, it's now -1. Plus, we're now in a world where you can twist flame templates for actual carnage. And it's not like it's not possible to pin them, holding your entire army up.

Just how many points are you willing to spend for a brief window of no direct hits? Guardsmen still die like guardsmen. Dealing with screening units isn't exactly difficult.

... and no amount of screening will stop direct hits in close combat.