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Fafnir wrote:http://csulbgaming.blogspot.com/2009/10/tires-don-exits-or-controversy-of.html

loltiresdonexitslol

The above article does a decent job of outlining some issues with balance, even if it is centered around fighting games.

40k is a horribly imbalanced game. Skill and tactics can go a long way, but that alone won't carry you.

Yep. You only need to WAAC against other WAAC players. In casual games it's more fun to pick different options so it doesn't matter so much.

Draigo wrote:How can anything be overpowered when all armies dont have a set standard of measure?

As stated, by points. When a unit has twice the firepower for half the points of a similar unit in another codex, it's OP. When a unit inexplicably gets special rules and cheaper weapon options of other codex units it's OP.

It's totally up to the players what to build their armies with but when the writers include units so vastly superior to other options it is very hard to control the cheesy spam.

I can say anything I am just as guilty as spamming as the next person. Hell my sister army spams battle sisters and when I used to have necrons I was really bad about spamming necron warrior units. A lot of spam comes from lack of option in units that have to be taken. The current rule set supports bringing a lot of troops to capture all those crazy objectives. So sure I can see how someone can get angry if someone is spamming. However, never should about core troops being spammed. Yes even veteran guardsman as you have the choice between desperado's... or a giant platoon which pretty much forces you to play foot guard. If a codex has 5 to 6 core choices and they spam then yes I could see a legitimate argument for it but when it has 1-3 just sit and enjoy the friggin game.

P.S. I was guilty of spamming fire warriors in my tau army too

Lets not even start on my Vanilla marines

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Draigo wrote:How can anything be overpowered when all armies dont have a set standard of measure?

As stated, by points. When a unit has twice the firepower for half the points of a similar unit in another codex, it's OP. When a unit inexplicably gets special rules and cheaper weapon options of other codex units it's OP.

Just look at BA codex. Tactical Marines and Scouts both cost the same as vanilla SM but they have Red Thirst, a one in six chance of getting Furious Charge and Fearless.
My opponant tried to insist that it's actually a disadvantage...yeahhhh. Such a hassle having fearless snipers/campers.

Joey wrote:Just look at BA codex. Tactical Marines and Scouts both cost the same as vanilla SM but they have Red Thirst, a one in six chance of getting Furious Charge and Fearless.
My opponant tried to insist that it's actually a disadvantage...yeahhhh. Such a hassle having fearless snipers/campers.

BA is actually one of my exceptions to my belief that 40k is actually a reasonably balanced game. Not so much for being over powered for points, so much as there are a bunch of rules that BA just break carte blanche. It's like I'm playing with a 40k army against an army that was designed for a different game.

Anyways, back in the old days when SW was the choppy army and BA were the shooty army, red thirst really WAS a disadvantage. I once played a game long ago next to a person who put down two 5-man devestator squads just to have red thirst bring one of the squads down to a single missile launcher, and the other was completely wiped out. Losing that much shooting in a shooty army (though extremely rare), really hurt. Of course, this was back in the day when they were a SHOOTY army, which meant that their death company didn't have access to FNP, preferred enemy, or rending.

I'm all for making armies more internally balanced (in my mind, every 40k army, in a perfect world would be able to field a shooty or a choppy army successfully, just like they should be able to go foot or mech), but BA becoming the shootiest army in the game (before everyone else could do razorspam), the choppiest army in the game (before the new GK came out), AND the fastest army in the game did seem a little off, and that was before you put in fleeting infinite attack dreadnoughts that could be flown around in skimmers, or assaulting with crazy CC units straight out of deepstrike, or deepstriking land raiders...

Still, I think this was more of an abberation than a sign of codex creep proper.

rockerbikie wrote:A balanced codex should not need to have OP units.

HAHAHAHA Find me a new codex that doesnt have some ridiculous stuff lol Lets see eldar - eldrad and and psy defense that ranges the entire board, Blood Angel have bucket loads of cheap and power house stuff. Space Wolves fit that too. IG has tons of cheap pt costed firepower. DE do as well. I mean come on that statement is ridiculous. Vendettas, Furisos, Venoms, and all sorts of strong stuff exists. An ork boy is outstanding for his pts. I could go on about all books but I am lazy and dont wanna type anymore till someone responds with another silly statement like this.

Blackhoof wrote:Strategic common sense? More like strategic d-baggery. You think it takes skill to spam things? You think you are an awesome player for copying some power-gamey list you read on the internet? Please, my baby sister could win with one of those lists.

As is evident in tournaments around the country, this statement is false. Net listing only works if you're a decent (at least) general.

Oh, not THIS argument again."I can do whatever i like because you have no right to judge me!" What gives me the right? My sentience, that's what. We all have the ability to think about and perceive things, and if I perceive something to be an act of unpleasantness performed purely to win, then what gives you the right to prevent me from holding those responsible in less esteem?

So... you're allowed to complain and throw labels around at elitist dbags because you're an elitist dbag? Play my way or I'll judge you?

A-hole behaviour?
It's hardly a-hole behaviour to dislike someones actions and make it known. If it was, why should we lock people up? After all, what gives us the right to judge their actions?

I have to think you're not serious - society has laws. Breaking those laws means you get locked up.
Yes - calling someone out and accusing them of being a WAAC player, ahole, whatever labels you want to throw... that breaks the societal norm - especially since that's just, like, your opinion man.

I introduced a friend to 40k and without reading a single list on the net, his first ever army he built after reading the rules and his codex was MSU spam. It's tactically sound, and he likes vehicles. Are you going to accuse him of netlisting? Being a WAAC ahole player? Or will you realize that maybe - just maybe - there is more than one way to play a friendly game.

@Rigeld: i apologise for the tone and wording in my last post. i went a bit too far. there is no need to demonize people here. i have not changed my opinion, but i will stop this argument now.

Blackhoof wrote:
Strategic common sense? More like strategic d-baggery. You think it takes skill to spam things? You think you are an awesome player for copying some power-gamey list you read on the internet? Please, my baby sister could win with one of those lists.

Let me counter: You think it takes skill to pick loads of different units? Actually, come to think of it, I agree with you: "Spamming" certain units if you want to win doesn't take skill, it's just common sense. Have you considered the possibility that many players play with what you call "spam" because it's actually good from a strategical point of view, rather than because "the interwebz sais so!!!"?

There are units that are just, unplayable, it seems as well. Such as the poor Chaos Spawn.

Redundancy can be obtained through different means. If I'm worried by my lootas getting shot up and leaving me low on an anti-tank unit, i could give my boy squads or vehicles some rokkits, and this is actually better than spamming in most cases because spamming a certain unit is done as a crutch for the list and if they face something that they can't handle (like say, long fangs finding themselves on the wrong end of genestealers or kommandos) then you've basicly have been stomped, where as spreading your anti-tank or whatever along different unit types provide threat saturation which forces the other player to decide which is more dangerous.

Either way, I more respect someone who won with a diverse list than someone who made their list via copypaste

it would help if GW actually play tested their rules and didnt just make up/throw in all kinds of random crap without thinking about the consequences of it. after reading over the grey knights codex, the game seems to have absolutely no balance what so ever. GW obvs doesnt really give a crap either, they love all the power jumpers because something new/over powered comes out, everyone switchs to it=more money for them, rinse and repeate.

if they were series about making a better game, they would write ALL OF THE DEXS AT THE SAME TIME. for example, they should finish writing ALL 6th edition codexes. each book should be developed by a whole team of people. After ALL dexs have been written the rules should be play tested for atleast 6 months and adjustments made constantly. All books should be released at the same time.

another idea. synergy between different units/ like some kind of combo attacks or special rules. for example, tactical marines supporting assault marines creates some sort of synergy/bonuses/combo attack. this would encourage more deversity/less spam and more interesting/complex gameplay.

As it is now the game should be left to the 12 year olds IMO. or play chess. or even world of warcraft if you want decent PvP. blizzard actually tries to make a balanced game.

kb305 wrote:it would help if GW actually play tested their rules and didnt just make up/throw in all kinds of random crap without thinking about the consequences of it. after reading over the grey knights codex, the game seems to have absolutely no balance what so ever. GW obvs doesnt really give a crap either, they love all the power jumpers because something new/over powered comes out, everyone switchs to it=more money for them, rinse and repeate.

if they were series about making a better game, they would write ALL OF THE DEXS AT THE SAME TIME. for example, they should finish writing ALL 6th edition codexes. each book should be developed by a whole team of people. After ALL dexs have been written the rules should be play tested for atleast 6 months and adjustments made constantly. All books should be released at the same time.

another idea. synergy between different units/ like some kind of combo attacks or special rules. for example, tactical marines supporting assault marines creates some sort of synergy/bonuses/combo attack. this would encourage more deversity/less spam and more interesting/complex gameplay.

As it is now the game should be left to the 12 year olds IMO. or play chess. or even world of warcraft if you want decent PvP. blizzard actually tries to make a balanced game.

Quoted for truth.

However power creep is what help treat the old players as new players, it makes them want to buy new armies

=I= White-Wolf wrote:Heyoo everyone!
It's never going to happen, but if people stopped spamming (It's not good for you ) the game would get a lot better (IMHO), and discussions could be a lot more productive.

ABSOLUTELY! I have just started visiting DakkaD. recently and have struggled with a lot of the "spam" references. It seems like a lot of the posters simply assume if you are going to run a certain army, you can only "effectively" do it one or two ways. They then throw spam on the back half of the name and call it done. It seems like they simply do what everyone calls "mathhammer" and creates a by-the-numbers list and expect the rest of us to nod our heads and agree the math works. WHERE'S THE LOVE! It's like they have been subverted by programs that have no feeling.

Sorry, I didn't want this to be a rant post, but I, like many of us, read the books and love the universe. The game is our way of participating with others in a great enviroment where we can test each other's tactical skills and daring, not their math skills! That's not to say their isn't any place for some calculations, but when you build your army around them I feel you lose the flavor of the game.

My confession is I haven't played in tournaments, so I can understand some wanting to fight fire with fire. I just get the feel that a lot of people forget or supress a huge part of the game that for me makes it fun, that we are playing out one part of a larger story. For ex., why are the GK intervening and attacking those tyranids instead of another chapter? Is an inquistor's forward operating base under attack? Just a bit extra that makes the game worth while to this humble contributor...

Barathoern wrote:

=I= White-Wolf wrote:Heyoo everyone!
It's never going to happen, but if people stopped spamming (It's not good for you ) the game would get a lot better (IMHO), and discussions could be a lot more productive.

ABSOLUTELY! I have just started visiting DakkaD. recently and have struggled with a lot of the "spam" references. It seems like a lot of the posters simply assume if you are going to run a certain army, you can only "effectively" do it one or two ways. They then throw spam on the back half of the name and call it done. It seems like they simply do what everyone calls "mathhammer" and creates a by-the-numbers list and expect the rest of us to nod our heads and agree the math works. WHERE'S THE LOVE! It's like they have been subverted by programs that have no feeling.

Sorry, I didn't want this to be a rant post, but I, like many of us, read the books and love the universe. The game is our way of participating with others in a great enviroment where we can test each other's tactical skills and daring, not their math skills! That's not to say their isn't any place for some calculations, but when you build your army around them I feel you lose the flavor of the game.

My confession is I haven't played in tournaments, so I can understand some wanting to fight fire with fire. I just get the feel that a lot of people forget or supress a huge part of the game that for me makes it fun, that we are playing out one part of a larger story. For ex., why are the GK intervening and attacking those tyranids instead of another chapter? Is an inquistor's forward operating base under attack? Just a bit extra that makes the game worth while to this humble contributor...

"Love" for the universe starts to run dry the first time you realise that your 10 man squad can be shot at because someone can draw line of sight on a single one of them.
Or you play against someone and every unit they run is basically a more powerful version of another unit.
Ever had a furioso dreadnaught charge a powerblob? That thing has an infinite number of attacks.
Yeah, screw that.

Barathoern wrote:

=I= White-Wolf wrote:Heyoo everyone!
It's never going to happen, but if people stopped spamming (It's not good for you ) the game would get a lot better (IMHO), and discussions could be a lot more productive.

ABSOLUTELY! I have just started visiting DakkaD. recently and have struggled with a lot of the "spam" references. It seems like a lot of the posters simply assume if you are going to run a certain army, you can only "effectively" do it one or two ways. They then throw spam on the back half of the name and call it done. It seems like they simply do what everyone calls "mathhammer" and creates a by-the-numbers list and expect the rest of us to nod our heads and agree the math works. WHERE'S THE LOVE! It's like they have been subverted by programs that have no feeling.

Sorry, I didn't want this to be a rant post, but I, like many of us, read the books and love the universe. The game is our way of participating with others in a great enviroment where we can test each other's tactical skills and daring, not their math skills! That's not to say their isn't any place for some calculations, but when you build your army around them I feel you lose the flavor of the game.

My confession is I haven't played in tournaments, so I can understand some wanting to fight fire with fire. I just get the feel that a lot of people forget or supress a huge part of the game that for me makes it fun, that we are playing out one part of a larger story. For ex., why are the GK intervening and attacking those tyranids instead of another chapter? Is an inquistor's forward operating base under attack? Just a bit extra that makes the game worth while to this humble contributor...

Creepy.. Sorry I don't share your love and acting vicariously through my plastic men. I treat it more like a chess game and test of tactics not an rpg.

Draigo wrote:

Barathoern wrote:

=I= White-Wolf wrote:Heyoo everyone!
It's never going to happen, but if people stopped spamming (It's not good for you ) the game would get a lot better (IMHO), and discussions could be a lot more productive.

ABSOLUTELY! I have just started visiting DakkaD. recently and have struggled with a lot of the "spam" references. It seems like a lot of the posters simply assume if you are going to run a certain army, you can only "effectively" do it one or two ways. They then throw spam on the back half of the name and call it done. It seems like they simply do what everyone calls "mathhammer" and creates a by-the-numbers list and expect the rest of us to nod our heads and agree the math works. WHERE'S THE LOVE! It's like they have been subverted by programs that have no feeling.

Sorry, I didn't want this to be a rant post, but I, like many of us, read the books and love the universe. The game is our way of participating with others in a great enviroment where we can test each other's tactical skills and daring, not their math skills! That's not to say their isn't any place for some calculations, but when you build your army around them I feel you lose the flavor of the game.

My confession is I haven't played in tournaments, so I can understand some wanting to fight fire with fire. I just get the feel that a lot of people forget or supress a huge part of the game that for me makes it fun, that we are playing out one part of a larger story. For ex., why are the GK intervening and attacking those tyranids instead of another chapter? Is an inquistor's forward operating base under attack? Just a bit extra that makes the game worth while to this humble contributor...

Creepy.. Sorry I don't share your love and acting vicariously through my plastic men. I treat it more like a chess game and test of tactics not an rpg.

Same here. If you aint playin to win, you playin to lose.

Yes, but the journey is more important than the destination.

That's what lost people say.