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Jidmah wrote:A) 18" shooting pretty much means that if you are shooting at transports, JI, beasts or fleeting units, they might catch you next turn. Not easy to catch, but neither impossible.

You're not usually going to be shooting S5 guns at transports (aside from AV10 ones, which are a small minority of them). Sure, JI or Beasts are the big exceptions. But again, very few armies use a lot of them. Blood Angels, Thundercav, Scarabs (who need 6s to wound you). Dark Eldar beast builds are pretty rare.

Jidmah wrote:B) Heavy flamers .

Not a weapon which has an easy time catching up with bikes, as the vast majority of vehicles can only move 6" and fire one. Blood Angels Razors are really the exception, but in either case the threat range of one is not huge, it's not going to cover a lot of bikers unless the ork player foolishly bunches up, and their T5 makes wounding 50/50 (well, 75% for TL BA Razors; but those things are a legitimate target for Big Shootas.)

Jidmah wrote:But agree, with fearless they might be fine. Something to promote huge mobs would be better though, fearless does more for small units.

Either/or. The players I've known who use them tend to go big, for massive shooting volume + some morale protection.

Wazdakka does have a Slugga because in 4th edition, it added an attack wih the PK. Orks were the very last 4 th edition codex, or first 5th edition depending on POV.

In the previous Ork Codex, Wazz could fire all his guns!

To the OP, Relentless is useless in the current Ork codex since there isn't a single instance of being able to field a Heavy weapon on a bike. The closest thing would be the Big Mek entry but the SAG and Bike options are mutually exclusive:(

Bikes aren't really that good unless you have just one squad of them or they are nob bikers.

Mannahnin wrote:

Jidmah wrote:A) 18" shooting pretty much means that if you are shooting at transports, JI, beasts or fleeting units, they might catch you next turn. Not easy to catch, but neither impossible.

You're not usually going to be shooting S5 guns at transports (aside from AV10 ones, which are a small minority of them). Sure, JI or Beasts are the big exceptions. But again, very few armies use a lot of them. Blood Angels, Thundercav, Scarabs (who need 6s to wound you). Dark Eldar beast builds are pretty rare.

I was especially thinking of DE boats here, which I would shoot with bikers all day. However, catching a chimera on its side or any vehicle from behind would put you in that spot, too. Either way, units charging from transports can catch bikers surprising fast, no matter whether you are talking about orks, dark eldar, or marines utilizing one of their assault vehicles. In addition there are a lot of big things moving as JI, like Mephiston, shunting Dreadknights, winged Daemon Princes and Hive Tyrants, as well as the odd libby dread. You also have to account for other bikes, like ravenwing, white scars, nob bikers or seer councils. If you add all those up with the ones you already mentioned - yeah, that's hit and/or miss.

Jidmah wrote:B) Heavy flamers .

Not a weapon which has an easy time catching up with bikes, as the vast majority of vehicles can only move 6" and fire one. Blood Angels Razors are really the exception, but in either case the threat range of one is not huge, it's not going to cover a lot of bikers unless the ork player foolishly bunches up, and their T5 makes wounding 50/50 (well, 75% for TL BA Razors; but those things are a legitimate target for Big Shootas.)

All vehicles can move 12" and disembark someone holding a heavy flamer though. Due to the nature of shooting units with large bases, he is also guaranteed to get a couble of hits out of it, even when shooting from 12" away. Eldar Warlocks, nobz with combi-skorchas, "those-meltas-are-flamers-against-orks"-marines, and the template psychic power every psyker seems to have nowadays all do the job. Then there are fast vehicles sporting flamers, not only the razors you mentioned, but also the IG fast attack tanks or baal predators. Not to mention the opponent drop podding dreads on your head, some daemon puking/warp firing on you after deep strike, termicide or obliterators. And those are just flamers, other armies have things like impaler cannons or marker lights which really have a field day killing those bikers. The problem is, their price even makes it worth the effort.

To conclude: Warbikers are boned if they face any blood angels at all.

Jidmah wrote:But agree, with fearless they might be fine. Something to promote huge mobs would be better though, fearless does more for small units.

Either/or. The players I've known who use them tend to go big, for massive shooting volume + some morale protection.

Yeah, but with fearless, I can see trios replacing the role of suicide koptaz and buggies in many lists. For just 110 points you'd get a fearless S9 PK with four T5 wounds and almost 4++ against shooting. Looks pretty good on paper.

Maybe all bikes will be Fearless or Stubborn in 6th edition. One can hope

DeathReaper wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Actually, they are great at shooting (Space marines don't get three shots and S5), as long as you can keept them from getting charged or flamed = Hit.

As soon as they get charged by a mediocre close combat unit, MC, walker or a close combat character, or get shot by any AP4 or less weaponry ignoring cover they die like boyz, for four times the cost = Miss.

Thank you for the great breakdown Jidmah, I was trying to put this in words, but as I do not play orks yet I was having a tough time coming up with the language.

So when you realize you have a tough time explaining yourself, you resorted to random childish remarks to stay in the argument?

Lots of discussion and debating effectiveness of this particular mob. Thanks for everyone relating their thoughts and tactics!
I do have another question regarding tactics when engaging vehicles with bikerz. Good idea or bad idea?

Good idea if you have a Power Klaw or two. Bad idea if they're toting Flame Templates.

If the Bikes have a Power Klaw or two,, and the vehicle has moved combat speed, or is stationary, then Good Idea, otherwise, not so good idea, unless you have multiple Power Klaws.

Thanks. I'm running one squad of 7 nob bikers each equipped with pks. also 2 squads of bikers each with a nob and pk.