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The problem is when you start being nitpicky about this 50% barrel thing then you should not get cover from being behind the Rhino/Chimera.

The area of the walker legs are less than half of the total area of the front arc. This is because most of the area of the front arc is on the torso of the walker. Thus, you don't get cover save.

I believe the most fair situation for TLAC like this (especially since GW doesn't have an official model) is to give either cover save for both or cover save for none.

Having fun with this one.

The gap illustrated.

Top view


Ground eye view from dreadnaught's level. I pulled off the magnetized AC and positioned the camera where the AC was pulled off from.



note the dead probably doesn't have cover from return fire from the manticore due to already being dangerously close to the 50% mark, and it's a fraking manticore WTF were we thinking clustering? Clustering vehicles like that make manticores angry, and when manticores get angry they roll a 3 on their D3 for numbers of shots.

Another view of a dread between 2 vehicles. Easy no cover shots at targets between 18-48 inches and solid cover from return fire. Note however other potential targets to the left or to the right would be obscured by the friendly Chimera's turrets.



Unfortunately I don't have any new Rhinos to post pictures with, all of the Rhinos I own are tiny little old school runts.

That isn't a dread, it's a sentinel with ac arms.

I concur, Definitely a sentinel. Also the last picture doesn't match up with the others, as one tank is clearly in front of the other, where their side-by-side in the first ones.

OverwatchCNC wrote:That isn't a dread, it's a sentinel with ac arms.

Same height and basic body proportions. My only dread is very old school, smaller than the current line, metal, and the magnets broke off.

The sentinel's magnetizing point for the ac is about 1/8th of an inch higher than where it would be on a dreadnaught. The same amount of height can be gained through basing. The principles are all the same and would work with a standard psyfleman.

The rulebook doesn't tell us how to handle it if one barrel of a two-barreled weapon is obscured but the other isn't. The rules are written as if there's only one barrel.

IMO the better approach is to play that if either of the barrels is obscured, cover is granted. That would be consistent with how it works with two different weapons. And it's consistent with the general principle of "when in doubt, go with the less powerful interpretation".

Apologies for some of the blurriness as blame the auto focus on this camera. I think I can see over the rhino with these guys but just barely. The chimera's guns are somewhat in the way of even the lowest one but still technically viable if I was outside by a bit.















Also, if you had half the arms behind the tank, and half to the side of the tank, do you get cover from 2 shots or all 4?

Also, for the rules quoted by folks on target along the barrle, how does the Exorcist tank work? You target along the pipe organs? They all point straight up. We're assuming the missles come down right? If you look at trajectory, then bullets technically curve. So does an exorcist get cover but essentially never give it despite it being just a heavy weapon but doesn't that violate the origional theme of LOS along the barrel?



Do you give cover if some of the pipes are covered?

Good first pic. From those pics it would seem that for those dreads, it would be difficult or impossible to get LOS to an infantry-sized model across a Rhino or Chimera, and when shooting at another model of Dreadnought or Rhino height, the target would be hull down.

The Exorcist is a wacky model, and you're absolulely right that that particular model doesn't permit the pipes/barrels to point forward. IME people generally play it as hull mounted, so having a fixed forward 45 degree arc, and drawing LOS from the pipes as if they were a turret.

Mannahnin wrote:Good first pic. From those pics it would seem that for those dreads, it would be difficult or impossible to get LOS to an infantry-sized model across a Rhino or Chimera, and when shooting at another model of Dreadnought or Rhino height, the target would be hull down.

The Exorcist is a wacky model, and you're absolulely right that that particular model doesn't permit the pipes/barrels to point forward. IME people generally play it as hull mounted, so having a fixed forward 45 degree arc, and drawing LOS from the pipes as if they were a turret.

Oh I agree if it was close, you'd definately be giving cover. But something far away without terrain is the origional question.



the infantry right next to the rhino is completely LOS, can't see it at all

The chimera is probably going to be obscured.
The bloodcrusher might be in the open,
The far away dread is probably going to be in the open



If I didn't have the search light there, you could probably see the dread uncovered. The bloodcrusher is the blob in the middle between the smoke and light. The chimera I'd claim would get a cover.

Now if I move it back...



and if the smoke launcher was placed elsewhere... (i.e. at a range of some 32' on the ruler)


I'd say the chimera was mostly in the open.

or if I move it slightly...


Same thing for the other dread (assuming no smoke launcher)





Also, I can turn the rhino on its side to avoid the smoke launchers/lights in the way

I still see the guns angled up a little bit, I don't see both barrels having unobstructed view, and since all you need is .00000001% cover for infantrymen, I would say it would be almost impossible to hide behind a rhino and shoot an infantry at any distance without him getting cover.

But you can light up the chimera all day long it appears.

When conversions come into play, especially where an 1/8th of an inch makes or breaks the situation, the least personal advantageous result is the correct one. Which is cover for infantrymen in almost all situations. No picture here has shown me of a valid dread who can shoot over a rhino unobstructed without breaking the rules or modeling for advantage.

nkelsch wrote:I still see the guns angled up a little bit, I don't see both barrels having unobstructed view, and since all you need is .00000001% cover for infantrymen, I would say it would be almost impossible to hide behind a rhino and shoot an infantry at any distance without him getting cover.

But you can light up the chimera all day long it appears.

When conversions come into play, especially where an 1/8th of an inch makes or breaks the situation, the least personal advantageous result is the correct one. Which is cover for infantrymen in almost all situations. No picture here has shown me of a valid dread who can shoot over a rhino unobstructed without breaking the rules or modeling for advantage.

I actually completely agree with you. The infantry definately will get cover. The tanks are what I was mostly asking about as they require 50% to be obstructed as far as I am aware. That's all that I really wanted to clarify.

I'd probably say the bloodcrusher had cover since it was somewhat obstructed. The black dread in the back and chimera I'd say had no cover in the later pics

sudojoe wrote:

nkelsch wrote:I still see the guns angled up a little bit, I don't see both barrels having unobstructed view, and since all you need is .00000001% cover for infantrymen, I would say it would be almost impossible to hide behind a rhino and shoot an infantry at any distance without him getting cover.

But you can light up the chimera all day long it appears.

When conversions come into play, especially where an 1/8th of an inch makes or breaks the situation, the least personal advantageous result is the correct one. Which is cover for infantrymen in almost all situations. No picture here has shown me of a valid dread who can shoot over a rhino unobstructed without breaking the rules or modeling for advantage.

I actually completely agree with you. The infantry definately will get cover. The tanks are what I was mostly asking about as they require 50% to be obstructed as far as I am aware. That's all that I really wanted to clarify.

As long as people don't consider blocking one of the two barrels 50% cover, then you could be ok. But of course the rules don't tell us how to draw LOS for multi-barrel models when it comes to determining cover or LOS.

How about the demolisher? That thing is always aimed up but you can fire direct. We make another example of let's just assume it's 45 degrees again?



or how about missle launcher arm? Some missles are blocked but several are clear. that thing get cover too or you assume we just launch the clear ones?




Could it be argued that the dread can raise his left arm to shoot the storm bolter in the case of the left hand weapon?



or even in the GW product line figure, the autocannon is aimed slightly up. Couldn't you also say that the dread can shift his weight and raise one arm over to get a bit more of a 1/8' inch if we assume main guns can go up and down and sift and what not for other vehicles?

It'd be another wierd situation for the exorcist again too. You might block some of the pipes even if you used them like a periscope.

Honestly though I'm not sure we can ever agree on this without additional FAQ on multi-barrel partial blocking in things that we can assume are actually supposed to be mobile and pivot around.

In those pictures the barrels were pointing up - so your camera angle should also be pointing up. Chances are the chimera would be out of LOS, or at least partially blocked

There are no rules covering multi-barrelled weapons and cover, so i would assume east advantageous - allow opponents with them one barrel = no cover, and if you use them yourselves then one barrel covered = cover save.

Cover Saves are not reciprocal. Its True Line of Sight. So, if the Dreadnought behind the Rhino has clear Line of Sight from its guns to over half of the enemy unit, they don't get a cover save. Meanwhile, if from that enemy unit, they only see a portion of the Dreadnought, it would have a Cover Save.


Somewhat On Topic: How was that Dreadnought positioned. I have a Dreadnought with Forge World Twin-Linked Autocannons, and the guns do not reach over the top of the modern Rhino. Vehicles measure Line of Sight from the Weapon, not from their cockpit. Potentially, you could peak over the front of the Rhino since it slopes down, but in order to be covered enough for a cover save only one of the weapons is going to be able to fire.

Recently had someone try to cheese a friend of mine like this in a tournament and the TO had to step in and tell the guy his Dreadnought couldn't shoot. I guess my advice would be, if trying this, to be damned careful with how you position your Dreadnought.

cowmonaut wrote:Cover Saves are not reciprocal. Its True Line of Sight. So, if the Dreadnought behind the Rhino has clear Line of Sight from its guns to over half of the enemy unit, they don't get a cover save. Meanwhile, if from that enemy unit, they only see a portion of the Dreadnought, it would have a Cover Save.

With the caveat being the Dread needs to be 50% or more obscured to claim a cover save, because a Dread is a vehicle.

nosferatu1001 wrote:In those pictures the barrels were pointing up - so your camera angle should also be pointing up. Chances are the chimera would be out of LOS, or at least partially blocked.

Good point. If the barrels are angled upward rather than pointed at the target, you can't legimately draw LOS from the tip.

Mannahnin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:In those pictures the barrels were pointing up - so your camera angle should also be pointing up. Chances are the chimera would be out of LOS, or at least partially blocked.

Good point. If the barrels are angled upward rather than pointed at the target, you can't legimately draw LOS from the tip.

I can have them perfectly straight and at most 1 barrel can be obstructed. Also, we have quite a few exceptions to the angle along the barrel rule which I was pointing out so this thing seems to be pretty arbitary and it's just going to be individual decision what counts as what it seems. If we are assuming that dreads have a hip, it most certainly can shift and raise or lower arms just like we assume turrets can aim in a particular direction which I was pointing out that even the offical GW site has dreads that are aiming weapons up/down/tilting /shifting to look cool etc so I am assuming that it is entirely possible to have modeled thus so copying the officals but not qualify as modeling for advantage but indeed ended up giving an advantage weather you knew about it before or not until the scenario comes up.

It is not an "exception", just pointing out that you cannot just "periscope" your angle from the end of the barrel - you ALWAYS determine LOS along the barrel, its just when you have something glued in position you are allowed to imagnie the barrel if it were allowed its "true" degrees of freedom. For example the demolisher, not glued, can rotate and up and through a fairly obvious arc, and it is this arc you are allowed to use.

The only genuine exception I can think of is the Exorcist.

Red line (O)
yellow line (X)

Mannahnin wrote:The only genuine exception I can think of is the Exorcist.

I'd imagine other artillery for IG would also fall into this as my earthshakers are aimed up but we'll be assuming they can lower the barrel to fire direct as well. Will it be able to see over a russ parked in front of it? hard to tell. Missles also are somewhat confusing as well since technically missle can curve so do they get treated differently as well? Half my missles are blocked, I still get to shoot?

Technically if I have no LOS from my weapon, then I shouldn't be able to shoot at all right? So if I used the GW dreadnaught pose where it was slanted to the side and I can't get my missle arm over the hull at all, it'd never fire?

Do any of you guys own a demolisher tank? I do. The barrel is quite moveable and it can aim straight ahead. So why is it on here?

sudojoe wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The only genuine exception I can think of is the Exorcist.

I'd imagine other artillery for IG would also fall into this as my earthshakers are aimed up but we'll be assuming they can lower the barrel to fire direct as well. Will it be able to see over a russ parked in front of it? hard to tell. Missles also are somewhat confusing as well since technically missle can curve so do they get treated differently as well? Half my missles are blocked, I still get to shoot?

Technically if I have no LOS from my weapon, then I shouldn't be able to shoot at all right? So if I used the GW dreadnaught pose where it was slanted to the side and I can't get my missle arm over the hull at all, it'd never fire?

Check my picture, their barrels are moveable,

Red line (O)
Yellow line (X)

Sentinel could be seen as modeling for advantage. Not everyone will agree only measuring from the top barrel as the rules are unclear so some may complain that you need the redline from both barrels to not have cover.

Mannahnin wrote:The only genuine exception I can think of is the Exorcist.

I finally broke down and traded for the real exorcists last year. Mannahnin might remember that I used a weird typhoon ML conversion for my old one that worked with LOS properly (along with two pred turret + Whirlwind launcher ones that saw less use). Anyways...

I have specifically not glued the organs onto my Exorcists for several reasons.
One, they are heavy and it makes storage easier.
Two, although I discuss LOS with my opponent and ask to use the organist's eyes during the game, I can always lay the organ flat on the turret if someone gets uppity about tracing down the barrel.
Three, they are heavy (I may have mentioned this previously) and if someone ever pisses me off I can knock them the feth out with a huge chunk of pewter.

Three, they are heavy (I may have mentioned this previously) and if someone ever pisses me off I can knock them the feth out with a huge chunk of pewter

lol. I suddenly had a mental image of the hospital visit:

Dr.: "So son, what happened?"

*between broken pieces of teeth* I got attacked by an exorcist missle launcher!

Dr: "hrm... so I see..." *turns around to nurse* "pssst, please page mental health, I think I got another one for the loony bin"

sudojoe wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Good first pic. From those pics it would seem that for those dreads, it would be difficult or impossible to get LOS to an infantry-sized model across a Rhino or Chimera, and when shooting at another model of Dreadnought or Rhino height, the target would be hull down.

The Exorcist is a wacky model, and you're absolulely right that that particular model doesn't permit the pipes/barrels to point forward. IME people generally play it as hull mounted, so having a fixed forward 45 degree arc, and drawing LOS from the pipes as if they were a turret.

Oh I agree if it was close, you'd definately be giving cover. But something far away without terrain is the origional question.

Spoiler:

the infantry right next to the rhino is completely LOS, can't see it at all

The chimera is probably going to be obscured.
The bloodcrusher might be in the open,
The far away dread is probably going to be in the open



If I didn't have the search light there, you could probably see the dread uncovered. The bloodcrusher is the blob in the middle between the smoke and light. The chimera I'd claim would get a cover.

Now if I move it back...



and if the smoke launcher was placed elsewhere... (i.e. at a range of some 32' on the ruler)


I'd say the chimera was mostly in the open.

or if I move it slightly...


Same thing for the other dread (assuming no smoke launcher)





Also, I can turn the rhino on its side to avoid the smoke launchers/lights in the way

In those pics the camera is above the barrel and probably above the dread which is a pretty big difference. I think to get a better view you'd want to remove the dread arm and put the lens where the barrels are. I have a hunch if you did that then there'd be much more obscurement involved.

By looking at those pics, the tip of the barrel can see the targets, but along the barrel the rhino completely blocks LOS.

Also looks like the Dread is making sweet sweet love to the rear of the Rhino.

Great thread, I havn't bothered to contest GK players shooting over rhinos, but "aim along the barrel" and the fact that there are no rules for twin-barreled weapons mean that I will fight them on it every step now.