Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So in a simple example:

Unit of 5 with 2 plasma guns (all members have a single Wound).
One Plasma gun rolls double one (armour saves are taken and both failed)

The current debate is that:

a). One plasma gunner is removed
b). Two plasma gunners are removed
c). Members of the squad without plasma guns are removed

That about right? Personaly I've been playing with b). as my interpretation.

Yep, that is the debate.

And, as per the requirement in GH!, the FAQ ruling for DT, the answer is a)

c). is not the debate

GH and Dangerous Terrain requirements forbid that.

If I have to put the wound on the firing model/the model failing the test, I cannot remove a model different in gaming terms.

and b.) is the correct answer, due to no alternative concerning saving throws.

@Kirsanth

Units get a wound when a model in it fails a save, in most cases, via Remove Casualties.

In these cases, the model suffers the wound

And how do you get to the conclusion, that you remove a casualty at all?
Because when you remove casualties, you do it as the rules say. Everything else is invented.
And the correct wording is: For every MODEL that failed ITS save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound... Not the units save, but the models own save. How do you interpret a unit based rule there?

You can draw a beautiful reference from the Gets Hot rule to that line in the book.

1. The firing model suffers a wound.
2. The firing model makes its save (although the rules dont cover that step)
3. The firing model fails its save (Attention: go to page 24 for every model that fails its save...)
4. The unit suffers an unsaved wound and as described in the whole section, casualties can be (and must be) taken freely amongst those identical.

So far I've been using b).

Otherwise every roll to hit with a plasma gun would have to be done separately. A royal pain if you have many in a unit.

The example of ten Ork Flashgitz with blasta upgrade, rolling to hit for each individual Ork would really slow the game down.

-Nazdreg- wrote:And the correct wording is: For every MODEL that failed ITS save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound...

How do you interpret a unit based rule there?

The bold part of your quote is my answer.

The rules in question say the model suffers the wound if it fails.

rigeld2 wrote:

-Nazdreg- wrote:If this rule is model based, then please refer to a rule for saves based on models.

There isn't one. That's my point.
The rule is model based - read the rule. The model suffers a wound.

Also - the Dangerous Terrain FAQ clarifies Wound, not wound. Interesting, aint it?

In case it got missed.

There are no rules covering this. Therefore we look at the next closest thing - a rule with the exact same wording, except it denies saves.
Oh look - you are forbidden from using the shooting rules to allocate wounds.

Therefore a) above is the right answer. Yes, if you have a ton of plasma guns it can slow the game down.
That doesn't mean it's the wrong answer.

Oh look - you are forbidden from using the shooting rules to allocate wounds.

Yes I am and I always was. I never denied that.

Also - the Dangerous Terrain FAQ clarifies Wound, not wound. Interesting, aint it?

The Wounds part indeed is interesting, because Wounds are never allocated, I admit, I didnt read it originally (our german translation is a bit imprecise), it was always written with a "w" if quoted.
That makes me change my opinion about dangerous terrain. It is clear, that "wound" isnt meant there. So it is indeed answered correctly. Although there is no reference to invulnerable saves. Do I have to conclude that you cant take any saves against Dangerous Terrain failure? Because I have never taken a save after taking a Wound. This is against everything...

But gets hot still refers to "wounds". And the reference to saving throws is also clear. That makes the wording different.

It's Model by Model.

And I quote:

pg 31 of the Mini Rulebook:

"For each result of a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound (normal saves apply)."


Nothing about units, nothing about allocation. If a model rolls a 1, it suffers a wound that it can take an armour save against.

So sorry, Guard players (and other Flash Git users). You're gonna have to start rolling each model seperately.

Anvildude wrote:It's Model by Model.

And I quote:

pg 31 of the Mini Rulebook:

"For each result of a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound (normal saves apply)."


Nothing about units, nothing about allocation. If a model rolls a 1, it suffers a wound that it can take an armour save against.

So sorry, Guard players (and other Flash Git users). You're gonna have to start rolling each model seperately.

Its the section on Normal Saves that indicates you may decide which model to remove. That is how failed saves are normally done. In the order of events described in the BRB, you put the wound on the model, take its saves, and then according to the "normal saves" rule you choose which model you want to remove. This is where the confusion lies and it appears you may remove any of the "indentical models" in the unit.

Not quite sure how this isn't clearly shown in the BRB.

Roll separately or with a different color of dice. Any ones will result in Gets Hot! being triggered...

Pretty simple...

rigeld2 wrote:There are no rules covering this. Therefore we look at the next closest thing - a rule with the exact same wording, except it denies saves.
Oh look - you are forbidden from using the shooting rules to allocate wounds.

Therefore a) above is the right answer. Yes, if you have a ton of plasma guns it can slow the game down.
That doesn't mean it's the wrong answer.

Yes, you are forbidden from using the shooting rules to allocate wounds. That means you can't put a Get's Hot wound on a different model.

But, the rulebook and the FAQ does nothing to override the Remove Casualties instructions that have you take Casualties from anyone in the wound group.



I think we're going around in circles here. Can someone clearly explain why Dangerous Terrain or Get's Hot requires you to have the model in question be the Casualty and not just the model that is Wounded?

Grakmar wrote:But, the rulebook and the FAQ does nothing to override the Remove Casualties instructions that have you take Casualties from anyone in the wound group.

You're still putting the wound on the unit. The rule is model based.

Grakmar wrote: But, the rulebook and the FAQ does nothing to override the Remove Casualties instructions that have you take Casualties from anyone in the wound group.

Using those rules it would have to be an identical model removed (same profile, same equipment), so if a plasma gunner suffers the result, a plasma gunner must be removed (and not someone in the unit without a plasma gun).

Because it's by model. Not by unit. When firing Gets Hot! weapons, they're basically little Units of 1.

Look, are people arguing this to be clever, or because they think it'll give some sort of advantage? Because the advantage lies in rolling for individual models. That way, if a single model rolls 2 s, only one of them dies.

The rule states "The Model" takes a wound. Then you can take Normal Saves. I doubt Normal Saves have anything to do with Casualties. In fact, there is no "Normal Saves" section. That pair of words simply means that you can take Armour or Invulnerable saves against the wound/s.

Anvildude wrote:Because it's by model. Not by unit. When firing Gets Hot! weapons, they're basically little Units of 1.

Look, are people arguing this to be clever, or because they think it'll give some sort of advantage? Because the advantage lies in rolling for individual models. That way, if a single model rolls 2 s, only one of them dies.

The rule states "The Model" takes a wound. Then you can take Normal Saves. I doubt Normal Saves have anything to do with Casualties. In fact, there is no "Normal Saves" section. That pair of words simply means that you can take Armour or Invulnerable saves against the wound/s.

The tenets of this forum are to argue what is written in the rules.

In this case, the section on Saves tells you how to roll on them. It also tells you how to remove casualties.

If you can find a different section that tells you how to remove casualties from failed saves I for one would like to see it. As it stands, the section on saves lets you pick from identical models.

Grakmar wrote:I think we're going around in circles here. Can someone clearly explain why Dangerous Terrain or Get's Hot requires you to have the model in question be the Casualty and not just the model that is Wounded?

Because on page 27, the rules for weapons show their characteristics; range, strength, AP, type and "Additional Characteristics" (qv.) which says, "...a weapon may have some additional characteristics that define the way they work."

Characteristics like; shooting with rapid fire weapons means you can't assault, template weapons ignore cover saves, a unit can't move and fire heavey weapons, and this one from gets hot!, "For each result ot a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound (normal saves apply)."

It doesn't say that the wound can be allocated, placed or suffered by an identical model, or one armed the same, or even that the wound is allocated to the unit like a shooting attack. The additional characteristic of the weapon includes the sentence that defines how the weapon works.

And in the case of gets hot! weapons, the way it works is that if the firing model rolls a 1, it suffers a wound. If it rolls two 1s, the firing model suffers 2 wounds. If the firing model only has 1 Wound on its profile, it suffers the wounds and is removed. This of course is providing the model fails any applicable saving throw it might be able to make.

Nemesor Dave wrote:In this case, the section on Saves tells you how to roll on them. It also tells you how to remove casualties.

If you can find a different section that tells you how to remove casualties from failed saves I for one would like to see it. As it stands, the section on saves lets you pick from identical models.

There isn't one. The section on saves deals with wounds caused to a unit. Gets Hot! causes wounds to a model.

There are no rules governing this.

grendel083 wrote:So far I've been using b).

Otherwise every roll to hit with a plasma gun would have to be done separately. A royal pain if you have many in a unit.

The example of ten Ork Flashgitz with blasta upgrade, rolling to hit for each individual Ork would really slow the game down.

Unfortunately, the slower way is exactly how you're supposed to do it.

Gets Hot, by rule, is resolved by model.

This debate has gotten silly, IMHO.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:In this case, the section on Saves tells you how to roll on them. It also tells you how to remove casualties.

If you can find a different section that tells you how to remove casualties from failed saves I for one would like to see it. As it stands, the section on saves lets you pick from identical models.

There isn't one. The section on saves deals with wounds caused to a unit. Gets Hot! causes wounds to a model.

There are no rules governing this.

Once you allocate wounds as the first step, you are applying wounds to models. This is no different.

I'm not saying you allocate the wound. The wound HAS to go on the firing model.

But, re-read the section on Remove Casualties (p24) and Taking Saves in the Complex Unit section (p25).

BGB wrote:Having allocated the wounds, meaning putting them all on the guy that had Gets Hot all of the models in the unit that are identical in gaming terms meaning ALL of the plasma gunners, take their saving throws at the same time, in one batch. Casualties can then be chosen by the owning player from amongst these identical models. meaning you can remove any of the plasma gunners, not just the one that had Gets Hot

(My comments in red)

As much as I would like to say it is applied to the model that rolled the 1, I cannot find any reason the owning player doesn't get to choose from 'identical models'.

Grakmar wrote:Taking Saves in the Complex Unit section (p25).

Gets Hot! is a wound on the model. It is not a wound on the unit that gets auto-allocated to the model.
Therefore you can't use unit based rules for this.

Why does no one care about the Dangerous Terrain ruling - or are you all asserting that you remove whole models there as well?

rigeld2 wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Taking Saves in the Complex Unit section (p25).

Gets Hot! is a wound on the model. It is not a wound on the unit that gets auto-allocated to the model.
Therefore you can't use unit based rules for this.

Why does no one care about the Dangerous Terrain ruling - or are you all asserting that you remove whole models there as well?

I am asserting that Dangerous Terrain works in the same way as Gets Hot. The individual model that rolled poorly takes the Wound, but he is not necessarily the Casualty. Any model in the unit that is identical in gaming terms can be the Casualty.

I think I understand Grakmar's argument. He's saying that (for single wound models) A and B are identical models in all respects. They both fire their plasma guns. "A" rolls two 1's (and fails 1 save). B rolls two 6's. One of the models suffer a wound, however, since they are identical, either A or B can be removed.

rigeld2 wrote:Why does no one care about the Dangerous Terrain ruling - or are you all asserting that you remove whole models there as well?

Because the dangerous terrain rule doesn't say to remove models, it says that models who fail their test are wounded, but take saves as normally.

Nobody disputes this.

The dispute lies in what happens after you fail an armor save. The rules are clear: for each model that failed its armor save, the unit suffers 1 wound. For each wound in a unit of single-wound models, you remove 1 identical model.

There is no other way to deal with failed armor saves.

time wizard wrote:And in the case of gets hot! weapons, the way it works is that if the firing model rolls a 1, it suffers a wound. If it rolls two 1s, the firing model suffers 2 wounds. If the firing model only has 1 Wound on its profile, it suffers the wounds and is removed. This of course is providing the model fails any applicable saving throw it might be able to make.

What rule are you using to remove models who fail their saving throw?

I would like to point out page 25, BRB, under "Taking Saving Throws", second paragraph,
"Finally, the player rolls separately for each model that
stands out in gaming terms. If one of these different
models suffers an unsaved wound, then that specific
model must be removed..."

Isn't a model that rolls a 'one' to hit with a Gets Hot weapon or fails it's Dangerous Terrain test now stand out in gaming terms? I think it does. It is subject to a special rule that the rest of the unit is not.

Isn't a model that rolls a 'one' to hit with a Gets Hot weapon or fails it's Dangerous Terrain test now stand out in gaming terms? I think it does. It is subject to a special rule that the rest of the unit is not.

Nope, because the model's special rules are taken into account, not the SR of the weapon. So the model has still the same weapon, SR, profile and wargear.

-Nazdreg- wrote:Nope, because the model's special rules are taken into account, not the SR of the weapon. So the model has still the same weapon, SR, profile and wargear.

Of course they are different in gaming terms. Only the models that rolled a 'one' can be subject to the rule (Dangerous Terrain or Gets Hot). That makes them different.

Of course they are different in gaming terms.

No they are not according to the rules. The rules have a clear definition what "identical in gaming terms" means. p25 complex units first paragraph. Unfortunately being subject to the gets hot rule is not part of the definition.

-Nazdreg- wrote:No they are not according to the rules. The rules have a clear definition what "identical in gaming terms" means. p25 complex units first paragraph. Unfortunately being subject to the gets hot rule is not part of the definition.

Gets Hot is an additional characteristic of a weapon (as defined on page 29), and weapons are part of the definition of "identical in gaming terms" (which is like you said, defined on page 25). So, Gets Hot must be taken into account when determining if models are "identical in gaming terms".