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It's Chicken and the Egg

Are Space Marines popular because they are well represented in rules and models?
or
Are they popular and therefore well represented in rules and models?

I have my own personal opinion but the most obvious example comes with Grey Knights. Before this update they were out of date and struggling, a few followers but seeing them was a novelty. Now you can't swing a cat without slapping 2 Draigo's in the face.
Now some of these people will have started the army because their favourite guys just got loads of new models and were brought up to date. A whole bunch more, cynically I would argue the majority, bought them because of the power level and it was GW who dictated the popularity by amping them to top of the pile.

Now to the original point "GW hates Xenos" that isn't true, they want people to buy them, but do they have a Space Marine bias? Of course they do. Is this because they are the best sellers? yes it is. Is that because more players want to be Space Marines for fluff reasons? I personally think no.

Oh and as a aside on the too many Marines chapters front, 1/3 to 1/2 of the codex update schedule each year is dedicated to different flavours of marines, the vast majority of which aren't even different enough to warrant a WD dex let alone a full book. Blood Angels, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Space Wolves are they not space marines? A codex Craftworld style pamphlet used in conjunction with the Marine dex would cover it with room to spare. As it is they are just excuses to give marines updates faster than the other races. Ah yes, when I think Blood Angels I always wondered where their Dreadnought Librarians were, they exemplify the chapter, bet those will never end up in the standard dex next update...

Now if GW stopped playing favourites, trimmed down their bloated army list and got a codex cycle where everyone got a new codex early each edition with model released spread over the years and thus were at least in the same power level and range support would marines still be the majority. Once again there is no way to measure but my personal opinion says no.

Dunklezahn wrote:It's Chicken and the Egg

Are Space Marines popular because they are well represented in rules and models?
or
Are they well represented in rules and models and therefore popular?

Those two have the same meaning, just sayin'.

Kanluwen wrote:"Who cares if it's a minidex or not?"
I care, because when you claim it is a "full Codex of their own" you're presenting a false argument to back your point of Imperial bias.

Fine.

How many minidexes have non-Imperial lines received?

Personally, I'm still waiting for my Thousand Sons minidex that can be used with Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Let me know when that's going to be available.

biccat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"Who cares if it's a minidex or not?"
I care, because when you claim it is a "full Codex of their own" you're presenting a false argument to back your point of Imperial bias.

Fine.

How many minidexes have non-Imperial lines received?

Codex: Craftworld Eldar, Codex: Armageddon, Codex: Eye of Terror, Kroot Mercenaries. If you remove C:A and C:EoT as there's Imperials in there as well, that's 2 to the Imperium's 3 (Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels) since 3rd edition. Whoop dee doo.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

biccat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"Who cares if it's a minidex or not?"
I care, because when you claim it is a "full Codex of their own" you're presenting a false argument to back your point of Imperial bias.

Fine.

How many minidexes have non-Imperial lines received?

Codex: Craftworld Eldar, Codex: Armageddon, Codex: Eye of Terror, Kroot Mercenaries. If you remove C:A and C:EoT as there's Imperials in there as well, that's 2 to the Imperium's 3 (Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels) since 3rd edition. Whoop dee doo.

Was the Catachan a minidex or a full codex?
Gotta include the Imperial Guard in that Imperium number.

It seems pritty clear to me that the space marines are favored but from the sounds in this thread, it seems everyone hates them.. Basic economics guys. If Space marines are so bad, don't buy them. Don't support somthing that you feel is of subpar quality and go buy codex space marines instead.

rigeld2 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

biccat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"Who cares if it's a minidex or not?"
I care, because when you claim it is a "full Codex of their own" you're presenting a false argument to back your point of Imperial bias.

Fine.

How many minidexes have non-Imperial lines received?

Codex: Craftworld Eldar, Codex: Armageddon, Codex: Eye of Terror, Kroot Mercenaries. If you remove C:A and C:EoT as there's Imperials in there as well, that's 2 to the Imperium's 3 (Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels) since 3rd edition. Whoop dee doo.

Was the Catachan a minidex or a full codex?
Gotta include the Imperial Guard in that Imperium number.

Minidex.

Dunklezahn wrote:It's Chicken and the Egg

Are Space Marines popular because they are well represented in rules and models?
or
Are they popular and therefore well represented in rules and models?

More like "does Space Marines sell because they are the ones being promoted or are they promoted because they are the ones who sell sell?"

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

biccat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"Who cares if it's a minidex or not?"
I care, because when you claim it is a "full Codex of their own" you're presenting a false argument to back your point of Imperial bias.

Fine.

How many minidexes have non-Imperial lines received?

Codex: Craftworld Eldar, Codex: Armageddon, Codex: Eye of Terror, Kroot Mercenaries. If you remove C:A and C:EoT as there's Imperials in there as well, that's 2 to the Imperium's 3 (Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels) since 3rd edition. Whoop dee doo.

What about Assassins, Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters? Where do they figure in? I have no clue what the Index Astartes series actually contained and if it even is relevant to the above quote, but it is a pretty big one for the thread.

Looking through the codexes, it seems Space Marines and Tyranids are the only ones that've had releases throughout all editions since 2nd. The latter did surprise me a bit.

As someone who pretty much always plays strictly xenos, I get why 50% of the current codices are imperium. From what I gather about the 40k world, IT IS portrayed as the imperium vs everyone else. There's this entire back story of the Horus Heresy and all the Primarchs, it would actually be kind of a let down if there was ALL THIS FLUFF, yet one vanilla codex to represent this? This could even make a case for there being multiple chaos books seeing as 50% of the primarchs split to join chaos.

Even from a practical standpoint, as has been said in this thread, the man power required to create a new astartes codex is much much smaller than a xeno codex. Not only can they copy/paste models with slight designs, they can do the same with the general army structure, adding in the random unit here or there to customize the force some. I imagine if they didn't do this with the newer SM codices, their release schedule wouldn't be much faster than it already is with xeno dex's, I see them as "semi freebies." Yes, they do require man power, but at a far greater amount.

Another thing, and kind of a theory of mine, is GW could be trying to find a "sweet spot" of codex releases. All the people demanding an equal representation of codex releases between SM/xenos could go two ways, either there's more xeno +1's around, or all the marine +1s get removed. I wouldn't want either to happen, really (as much as I would LOVE a one off ork dex). If you saturate with more unique codices, that is a LOT more rules people need to remember when playing against all the different offshoots, and not to mention, you think waiting 5-7 years is bad? Waiting 12+ years like DE would be common when there's 30 codex updates that would need to be done.

The opposite would be just as bad, reducing the amount of SM codices to just the main book would lessen the army counts, the advantage is it would be far easier to keep all of the codices up to date (hmmm, maybe not a bad idea!) but if you think it's bad now playing "too many space marines" it would be even more redundant when they're all playing out of the same book. Yes, SW and BA are pretty similar to C:SM, but they have plenty to make them unique (imo).

And yes, they could have done a WD for them, but WE aren't their target customers. Sure, we spend a lot on the game, but they want to grab new people. It's hard to advertise SW/BA when someone shows interest in them and follow it with "buy this magazine, their rules are inside!" comes off as kind of wonky. Not to mention with the codices, it gives a nice snapshot on the fluff of the books.

Anyway, to sum up, I'll agree there's a preference for marines, but I don't see it as such a large issue to throw fits over.

Mahtamori wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

biccat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"Who cares if it's a minidex or not?"
I care, because when you claim it is a "full Codex of their own" you're presenting a false argument to back your point of Imperial bias.

Fine.

How many minidexes have non-Imperial lines received?

Codex: Craftworld Eldar, Codex: Armageddon, Codex: Eye of Terror, Kroot Mercenaries. If you remove C:A and C:EoT as there's Imperials in there as well, that's 2 to the Imperium's 3 (Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels) since 3rd edition. Whoop dee doo.

What about Assassins, Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters? Where do they figure in? I have no clue what the Index Astartes series actually contained and if it even is relevant to the above quote, but it is a pretty big one for the thread.

Looking through the codexes, it seems Space Marines and Tyranids are the only ones that've had releases throughout all editions since 2nd. The latter did surprise me a bit.

Assassins was a minidex but was usable across all the Imperial books it was released alongside of(if I remember right at least).

Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters were books of their own, which could take options from Guard/Marines.

Waiting 12+ years like DE would be common when there's 30 codex updates that would need to be done.

Maybe if they had a better collection of rules writers rather than a crapshoot few that writes out codexs based on a period between WHFB, LOTR, and 40k instead of updating things for the next edition.

GW obviously doesn't hate Xenos, but lets face it they haven't received the best treatment since 5th edition came out, whether intentional or unintentional. 5th edition gave huge power boosts to most armies lucky enough to receive a codex, while any army that hasn't received one has languished and struggled in any kind of competitive environment.

When 5th edition came out, we have three imperial released right in a row, with IG and SW becoming competitive powerhouses that dominated the competitive scene until GK were released. The first 5th edition xenos codex to be released was Tyranids, which flopped and just couldn't compete. Then we had Blood Angels released very shortly afterward, which while not quite up to IG and SW standard, was another powerhouse. It wasn't until Dark Eldar were released that a single "Tier 1" xenos army became available for 5th edition play, and even afterward its release your looking at a 3 to 1 ratio of top tier Imperial to Xenos armies. Then you had GK, another Imperial army, that was surprise, surprise, stupidly powerful, released shortly afterward. With the release of Necrons we finally have a whopping count of 2 competitive Xenos armies for 5th edition, and it is likely that 6th edition will be released less than a year from the Necron release date. So that vast majority of 5th Edition's run, you had 25% or less of the top tier armies being represented by Xenos. So it shouldn't be surprising that people don't think Xenos are being treated properly.

In regard to the resources needed to be spent to update Xenos codices, although the both Necrons and Dark Eldar saw a huge influx of models, additional models really aren't needed to upgrade most Xenos codices. Eldar, Tau and Choas already have a large range of fantastic looking models. A few more wouldn't hurt, but what every out of date army needs is new rules, not new models. The old codices can't compete with 5th edition power creep, which is why Xenos players are complaining, and the situation can be fixed with a simple codex update, no additional model releases required. The existing models just need to be made playable, and that shouldn't require any more investment than making another space Marine dex.

Besides, doesn't repeated Space Marine releases get boring after a while?

Fetterkey wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Pacific wrote:I think you've gone through great pains to spell out the obvious. If anyone really thinks that GW 'hates' the alien races, they need to look up the meaning of the word in a dictionary. If they still think that, then no doubt they will stop doing so when they hit 16.

Unfortunately a lot of people still don't get it. I've been preaching this for years, but never made a good, lengthy post like the OP about it. Space Marines pay the bills. Also, to anyone who didn't get to play against Orks in early 4th/3rd ed: you should have seen the sorry state of their model line. The only plastic kits were Boyz and the Gorkamorka trukks, buggies, and bikers. Those Gorkamorka kits were grossly out of scale and did not age well at all, while much of the range was made up of metal nightmare models like the old killa kans. The fact that Orks have almost a completely plastic range with some of the best plastics in GW history is wonderful.

Definitely. Orks went from essentially having only one good kit (Boyz) to having an entire line of awesome models. All that's left of the old stuff is the Buggies/Wartrakks (I think).

I envy the Ork variety. I don't like the aesthetic, but the kits look great and have a ton of options.

Wow, I can't believe anyone would downplay the blatant space marine fanboyism by treating 40k as "Imperium vs Xenos".

Space Marines are one army. It has nine chapters. Chaos Space marines are one army. It has nine chapters. Do they get equal representation?

For all intents and purposes Imperial Guard and Sisters of battle are Xenos armies. In that they aren't a bunch of PA guys with 4s across the board in little square boxes. It is really sad that Space Marines take actual update schedules away from other armies when 90 percent of their makeup is the same as any other space marine army, just a different color, and a stolen special rule from one of the xenos armies.

Kevlar wrote:

Space Marines are one army. It has nine chapters. Chaos Space marines are one army. It has nine chapters. Do they get equal representation?

Space marines are part of the IoM. The IoM gathers forces from each of its parts if neccessary. The space marines however are independent and may show up or not. Plus space marines are 1000 chapters, they were 20 Legions before. The traitorous scumbags you seem to consider less represented are the remnants of 9 Legions and the turncoats of 10 millenia. So basically one army that isn't unified generally after the only one all astartes swore fealty too isn't available right now and the other army that isn't an army but warbands, who may or may not consist of CSM, mutants, cultists and demons. Comparing apples to oranges. SM ( one force of many ) vs CSM ( pure CSM or mixed force ).

Kevlar wrote:
For all intents and purposes Imperial Guard and Sisters of battle are Xenos armies. In that they aren't a bunch of PA guys with 4s across the board in little square boxes. It is really sad that Space Marines take actual update schedules away from other armies when 90 percent of their makeup is the same as any other space marine army, just a different color, and a stolen special rule from one of the xenos armies.

What?
IG and sisters aren't "xenos armies".
No one takes those mythical update schedules away as its GW's decision and only GW's if they release anything for any of their systems.
So if they liked to have just 1 codex for 40k and fill the year with LoTR and WHFB, this wouldn't mean they hate the xenos armies of 40k.

Fetterkey wrote:

Da Boss wrote:This thread is full of hilariously bad arguments. GW give more attention to the imperium than any other faction. The only reason that there can even be an argument to the contrary is through the dishonest and sophistic categorisation of all the other non chaos factions as "Xenos" as if they were some monolith entity.

And yet you categorize all the Imperial factions as "Imperium" as if they were some monolithic entity.

Because the Imperium... is... one?

All I have to say on the matter is:

Widely regarded as "Strong" or "Overpowered" codices:

Grey Knights
Dark Eldar
Space Wolves
Necrons
Blood Angels
Imperial Guard

Despite many acknowledging that it's too soon to tell on Necrons really, and many who believe that DE and BA are far more balanced than cheesy (more so for DE than BA, but I've heard this for both) this list still represents the most grumbled about armies. Notice a pattern? Now you may argue that Mechdar and Nidzilla was slaughtering its way through tournies in 4th (and laughably people even include Tau "Fish of Fury" in there,) but that is to forget about BA Drop pod armies late 4th, Iron Warriors during late 3rd and nearly all of 4th, and the constant strength of marines at all times*. I would say the issue is ameliorated by the strength of 5th ed that other armies can still compete against most of those, but regardless some army books are just too strong for other armies to compete against period.

The only "balance" between Imperial books and Xenos books right now is that Sisters of Battle and Tau are both regarded as the weakest ones. While some may view the equal share of Imperials and Xenos at the bottom of the heap to be a balance, I feel that to do so is in total disregard to the obvious majority standing at the top.

Now, I can set aside the notion that GW just prefers Imperials because what all of this REALLY shows is that GW has no consistency in its writers or power levels from army to army regardless of race or political affiliation. It seems that GW diferentiates Xenos by having them look and play differently which often lends to a nice, sometimes elegant internal balance. They differentiat Marines by giving them different OMGWTFBBQSUPERPOWERS with ____claws and ____hammers and ____ ____s for their ____backs.

Personally I suspect new Marine releases are motivated solely by which color of paint they have gathering dust in their warehouses and need to offload.

*obviously my argument here is really MEq vs Other as opposed to strictly Imp vs Xeno

Imperial Forces are the "good guys" of the galaxy. Their models sell much better because they are human, and we are humans, and you have much easier identification for players between themselves, and Imperial armies.

This is basic human psychology. It's used in marketing or all sorts of things. Try to make the product identifiable to the target market.

Because the human models sell better than the non-human ones, they get more attention. It is more profitable to design a new Space Marine vehicle than it is to design a new Tau vehicle or Eldar vehicle. It isn't that Games Workshop "hates" the Xenos races. You'd have to be a simpleton to believe that. Many of the GW staff are players of the various alien races, and helped design them. But as a business, GW has to concentrate on its most profitable sectors. Creating different colors of Space Marines to try and appeal to different demographics of people who'd want to play superhuman warriors is just good business. So you have your furry Viking Marines, and your emo bathrobe Marines, and your crazy vampire Marines, and your suicidal crusader Marines, and your Mariney Marines. You can see the process at work inside the Space Marines themselves though. The Blood Angels and Space Wolves have gotten an update in every edition since 2nd, and usually relatively early on in the product cycle. The Dark Angels and Black Templars have not. Guess why? Probably because Emo Bathrobe Marines and Suicidal Crusader Marines don't sell as well.

This stuff isn't complicated guys. If you play a less well selling army, you have to endure a longer turn around in the development cycle for new models and rulebooks. Until that army sells more models, you'll never see an improvement. And really, part of the problem is the player base. Newbies come onto the forum and ask "What should I play?" The answers are invariably "Spess Wulfs! Blud Aynjulz!" and "Not Tearnidz, suxxors!"

Guess which model range just sold a ton more models?

Nagashek wrote:Notice a pattern? Now you may argue that Mechdar and Nidzilla was slaughtering its way through tournies in 4th (and laughably people even include Tau "Fish of Fury" in there,) but that is to forget about BA Drop pod armies late 4th, Iron Warriors during late 3rd and nearly all of 4th, and the constant strength of marines at all times*. I would say the issue is ameliorated by the strength of 5th ed that other armies can still compete against most of those, but regardless some army books are just too strong for other armies to compete against period.

Did you just call the Blood Angels PDF Codex overpowered?

I also love how you just spout a lot of stuff without providing any evidence to back it up. As they say, "citation needed".

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nagashek wrote:Notice a pattern? Now you may argue that Mechdar and Nidzilla was slaughtering its way through tournies in 4th (and laughably people even include Tau "Fish of Fury" in there,) but that is to forget about BA Drop pod armies late 4th, Iron Warriors during late 3rd and nearly all of 4th, and the constant strength of marines at all times*. I would say the issue is ameliorated by the strength of 5th ed that other armies can still compete against most of those, but regardless some army books are just too strong for other armies to compete against period.

Did you just call the Blood Angels PDF Codex overpowered?

I also love how you just spout a lot of stuff without providing any evidence to back it up. As they say, "citation needed".

Tau Fish of Fury was a powerful thing in 4th edition, as it's tactics combined with the fact that fire warriors glancing was actually good meant that Tau was actually a strong army in 4th, even with its laughable tactics now, and the BA PDF was pretty close to the list given to SoB, as in it was at best, okay, and at worst a liability to itself, it was something BA want to forget ever existed.

Iron warriors had a small heyday, but it wasn't as bad as skimmerspam 4th, which is still above 5th gray knights. So if I had to rate it.

Skimmerspam was above Codex Chaos, which now equals Grey Knights options.

At least you still see other things winning in 5th, 4th edition skimmerspam was the third worst of the balance issues throughout the editions (With First and Second being exclusive to 2nd edition cards Virus Bomb and the Tyranid special cards)