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Frazzled wrote:

Joey wrote:

biccat wrote:

Joey wrote:I thought immigration essentially solved this? I know in the UK it's saved us from bankrupcy (or at least delayed it 50 years or so), I'd assume that with America's far higher immigration rate it'd be much less of a problem?

Immigration hasn't solved the bubble of boomers moving into retirement age.

But aren't there tens of millions of new young people getting below minimum wage salaries paying taxes?

Corrected your typo.

Are you referring to illegal immigrants (they don't pay income taxes)? Or just the poor slobs that you pay below minimum wage to walk your fearsome wieners?

This may be something that Frazz knows more about since it is in his backyard. But I think I read a study last year or so that found that undocumented workers actually increased the Texas budget by a decent amount of money. The finding was that with the more stringent verification laws of labor status, more immigrants are having to use forged documents and SS#'s. So payroll taxes are collected (state, federal, SSI) just as if they were legal workers. But since they cannot claim these benefits when needed it is bonus money for the state. Not sure what the final chunk of money was.

d-usa wrote:This may be something that Frazz knows more about since it is in his backyard. But I think I read a study last year or so that found that undocumented workers actually increased the Texas budget by a decent amount of money. The finding was that with the more stringent verification laws of labor status, more immigrants are having to use forged documents and SS#'s. So payroll taxes are collected (state, federal, SSI) just as if they were legal workers. But since they cannot claim these benefits when needed it is bonus money for the state. Not sure what the final chunk of money was.

Hmm, I figured that the main tax benefits we would get from "undocumented workers" would be sales and (possibly) property taxes. Didn't realize we were getting income tax from them too!

IcyCool wrote:

d-usa wrote:This may be something that Frazz knows more about since it is in his backyard. But I think I read a study last year or so that found that undocumented workers actually increased the Texas budget by a decent amount of money. The finding was that with the more stringent verification laws of labor status, more immigrants are having to use forged documents and SS#'s. So payroll taxes are collected (state, federal, SSI) just as if they were legal workers. But since they cannot claim these benefits when needed it is bonus money for the state. Not sure what the final chunk of money was.

Hmm, I figured that the main tax benefits we would get from "undocumented workers" would be sales and (possibly) property taxes. Didn't realize we were getting income tax from them too!

Ones that use fake Social Security numbers to get jobs still pay taxes, they just tend not to follow up on the filing or getting refunds part.

Looks like the annual pay into Social Security by illegal immigrants nationwide is $7 Billion. So not a huge impact, but it's money they pay that they will never see again.

Here is the report from Texas. Looks like it was actually in 2006.

The Comptroller’s office estimates the absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our Gross State Product of $17.7 billion. Also, the Comptroller’s office estimates that state revenues collected from undocumented immigrants exceed what the state spent on services, with the difference being $424.7 million

biccat wrote:

Joey wrote:I thought immigration essentially solved this? I know in the UK it's saved us from bankrupcy (or at least delayed it 50 years or so), I'd assume that with America's far higher immigration rate it'd be much less of a problem?

Immigration hasn't solved the bubble of boomers moving into retirement age.

The problem is that while the Baby Boomers were working, Congress was busy spending the excess funds they contributed in a move that makes Enron look like a pack of amateurs. Had that excess been left alone, Social Security wouldn't be in the dire straits it's in now.

It doesn't help that Social Security is persona non grata, politically speaking. Anything having to do with changing it or even discussing any changes is damn near political suicide. Nothing will happen until it all falls apart.

Monster Rain wrote:My only question was "why?" A decision was made to lump some things and not others.

I would say the difference between medicare and social security* would be a significant difference for most people, whereas the 1% of costs made up VA would be seen as a trivial item at best, in a graph that's already a little hard to read.



*Especially when you look at the massive increase in health costs over the period measured. I mean, that's really the big story there, and just more evidence that for long term financial stability the US has to get its healthcare costs under control.


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Monster Rain wrote:It could be any number of things.

All I know for sure is that I'm not sure what the point of the graph is.

To see how spending changed over 50 years. ie Military spending used to be much bigger, even though its still very big it's declined significantly. Healthcare costs went from nothing to 20% odd of the budget. That kind of thing.


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dæl wrote:I know over here if someone is given a government contract it suddenly costs a lot more than if it was private. Does a similar thing happen over there?

Having worked in local government for a fairly long time, I can tell you there is a cost, but it is way overstated by the general public. Roads are a tough one to measure, because there are so few roads built by the private sector (because, you know, they're really expensive), but site works, public parks, maintenance and the like, there'd generally be about a 5 to 10% cost increase because it's being done by government. Most of that comes from

Now, local government is the level of government closest to the ground, and is always strapped for cash, so they are the cheapest means of getting stuff done. Move up to state, and then to federal government and you get cost increases again, so that from the private sector to the federal government you're maybe looking at 20 to 25% on average, but with a big possibility for variation (in some places government has consistently brought projects in well below private sector comparisons, in other places there's been blow outs in excess of double the price).

Joey wrote:China are currently building a Maglev train, thats costing a bit, and they're doing the Chinese thing and breaking the law about how close it should be to people's houses. But on the whole their infrastructure isn't the best. Hong Kong is well built though.

Yep. China, being an economy that's still very much state planned is very good at individual, high profile projects. Same way the USSR was. But when it comes to overall development, they're miles behind Europe and the US.


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d-usa wrote:Looks like the annual pay into Social Security by illegal immigrants nationwide is $7 Billion. So not a huge impact, but it's money they pay that they will never see again.

Here is the report from Texas. Looks like it was actually in 2006.

The Comptroller’s office estimates the absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our Gross State Product of $17.7 billion. Also, the Comptroller’s office estimates that state revenues collected from undocumented immigrants exceed what the state spent on services, with the difference being $424.7 million

Hmm, Fraz likes to post all these news stores lately, and this one is from Texas so you think it'd be right up his alley. And yet he did not post it. That is so weird. What would cause him to just completely ignore this story?

Vulcan wrote:The problem is that while the Baby Boomers were working, Congress was busy spending the excess funds they contributed in a move that makes Enron look like a pack of amateurs. Had that excess been left alone, Social Security wouldn't be in the dire straits it's in now.

Had the excess been left alone, Social Security wouldn't be as bad as it is now. But it still would be on a downward trajectory.

Putting the Social Security funds in a "trust account" that didn't earn any interest wouldn't have helped much.

is defense so small because it isn't budgeted?

it is all borrowed, and some is clandestine?

DIDM wrote:is defense so small because it isn't budgeted?

it is all borrowed, and some is clandestine?

not sure if serious

Hmm, Fraz likes to post all these news stores lately, and this one is from Texas so you think it'd be right up his alley. And yet he did not post it. That is so weird. What would cause him to just completely ignore this story?

Its almost like its some obscure government report FROM 2006 not published anywhere but on a government website. I know its just crazy but I don't spend my time randomly looking at government websites. Unless Sebster's hanging out checking every government website back a good ten years and every news article like, on the planet, maybe instead of criticizing others he should just shut the feth up.

Regardless asuming its additional income..so? its at bets minimize wage, putting pressure on keeping jobs minimum wage. All those jobs were either higher paying before, or were paid to slothlike mouthbreathing teenagers. Thats not going to help baby boomer retirement.


Thats the dirty legal secret neither party wants to talk about. When you have open borders effectively keeping wage pressures down for un skilled and light trade skills, you end up with a permanent underclass of unemployed or barely employed people. Know any groups in the US that seem to have a permanent underclass now? mmm....

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/07/06/world/americas/immigration.html

I'm curious what exactly some of my local politicians will run on when there's no more illegal immigrant problem (or rather when it's tiny enough to ignore).

Melissia wrote:I'm curious what exactly some of my local politicians will run on when there's no more illegal immigrant problem (or rather when it's tiny enough to ignore).

America will always create a boogie man.

Real or not.

At home or abroad.

Big or small.

Bestow fear and you can control the people.

biccat wrote:

Vulcan wrote:The problem is that while the Baby Boomers were working, Congress was busy spending the excess funds they contributed in a move that makes Enron look like a pack of amateurs. Had that excess been left alone, Social Security wouldn't be in the dire straits it's in now.

Had the excess been left alone, Social Security wouldn't be as bad as it is now. But it still would be on a downward trajectory.

Putting the Social Security funds in a "trust account" that didn't earn any interest wouldn't have helped much.

Who said it had to sit in a 'trust account'? Why couldn't it have been put to work in a responsable manner? I'm sure a wide variety of safe investment opportunites could have been found.

They could loan it to themselves, and charge the same interest China is charging us!

Infinite Moneys!

biccat wrote:Had the excess been left alone, Social Security wouldn't be as bad as it is now. But it still would be on a downward trajectory.

Putting the Social Security funds in a "trust account" that didn't earn any interest wouldn't have helped much.

You can return to SS having a positive cashflow with a fairly modest increase in the rate, and a bigger but still not huge increase would see SS growing at a big enough rate to cover for when the baby boomers start dropping out of the system. Politically, though, that just isn't going to happen.

People like to moan and complain that this is because government is bad and what-not, but ultimately defined benefit funds like SS crap out sooner or later, no matter what. SS is actually one of the longest lasting funds.

The only long term solution, and this is where I agree with the Republicans, is to move towards individual savings accounts. Instead of shipping money into SS, people have their money put into their own investment portfolio, where they can choose where its invested, and access it once they retire. It also starts driving domestic savings up, allowing you to fund investment domestically (meaning companies will have to borrow less off of China).


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DIDM wrote:is defense so small because it isn't budgeted?

it is all borrowed, and some is clandestine?

1) Defence is very big, as you can see by the budget in the opening post.

2) It isn't clandestine, it is in the budget, as you can see by the budget in the opening post.


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Frazzled wrote:Its almost like its some obscure government report FROM 2006 not published anywhere but on a government website. I know its just crazy but I don't spend my time randomly looking at government websites. Unless Sebster's hanging out checking every government website back a good ten years and every news article like, on the planet, maybe instead of criticizing others he should just shut the feth up.

Wow, that's a lot more hostile than I was expecting. I kind of figured you had embraced your roll as official dakka mouthpiece for the republican noise machine. Didn't know you were so sensitive about it.

Thats the dirty legal secret neither party wants to talk about. When you have open borders effectively keeping wage pressures down for un skilled and light trade skills, you end up with a permanent underclass of unemployed or barely employed people. Know any groups in the US that seem to have a permanent underclass now? mmm....

Absolutely. Hence my argument to start properly punishing the companies hiring illegals.

Vulcan wrote:Who said it had to sit in a 'trust account'? Why couldn't it have been put to work in a responsable manner? I'm sure a wide variety of safe investment opportunites could have been found.

Like what? US treasury bonds?

biccat wrote:

Vulcan wrote:Who said it had to sit in a 'trust account'? Why couldn't it have been put to work in a responsable manner? I'm sure a wide variety of safe investment opportunites could have been found.

Like what? US treasury bonds?

FB shares. Morgan Stanley swears they're going up, but we have to get in now or we'll miss out.