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Frazzled wrote:

Joey wrote:If the debt did not increase during a fething huge recession, it'd be a miracle.

Yes, that is Keynesian. What is not Keynesian is imploding the financial with a level of debt greater than all the other naitonal debt of the rest of the world combined, especially when it was particularly for infrstructure spending, just keeping government jobs afloat.

Setting aside that's he's "impoded the financial", a 5 trillion dollar increase in debt isn't that big - 33% of GDP.

Frazzled wrote:
If you had dumped $1.0Trillion US into a 20 year fund for physical capex I'd be a much more happy camper. We didn't and it didn't do

You'd also have millions of unemployed and probably still be in recession. Go figure.

Setting aside that's he's "impoded the financial", a 5 trillion dollar increase in debt isn't that big - 33% of GDP.

This statement lacks financial sanity. You just said a 2 year increase in the debt equivalent to 1/3 of the entire GDP of the United States of America isn't big. What you think is big may stagger the mind.




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You'd also have millions of unemployed and probably still be in recession. Go figure.

Wait, so you mean, like now. OK...

My wife regularly implodes my financial.

Kilkrazy wrote:My wife regularly implodes my financial.

Ditto, and I've found out, has graduated from treating curbs as merely guidelines to sideswiping buildings.
"That bank just leaped out at me!"

Taskmaster99 wrote:Im not really worried about an economic collapse......Im a gun nut...have plenty of protection for myself and my wife and a ton of ammo to boot. Try and loot my house.......I dare ya!!!

Never say this in a public forum.


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Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:My wife regularly implodes my financial.

Ditto, and I've found out, has graduated from treating curbs as merely guidelines to sideswiping buildings.
"That bank just leaped out at me!"

Your wife hit a bank?

Yes and not in the good "John Dillinger" way but more in the "WOMAN WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO TO THE VAN!" way.

...your wife is off my list of potential get away drivers.

AustonT wrote:...your wife is off my list of potential get away drivers.

Mine too. I'm scared. The Boy Wonder is absolutely excellent (knock on wood) even if he tends to floor it. I'm leery GC will be like the Wife ditty bop ditty bop ooh shiny SCRAPE oh who cares ditty bop ditty bop...

Frazzled wrote:

This statement lacks financial sanity. You just said a 2 year increase in the debt equivalent to 1/3 of the entire GDP of the United States of America isn't big. What you think is big may stagger the mind.

It's a 4 year increase but don't bother getting your facts right, the right rarely does.
According to google, interest on US debt is on average 3.29%. How many people do you think would take out a 10/20 year loan for a third of their income at 3.29%? Especially if it meant ensuring growth in the first place so that you actually have the capacity to pay it back.
Just going "wow those numbers are big, obama must be wrong" is very childish.
Explain exactly why you think the stimulus was a bad idea. Explain how America would be in a better position with a couple of million fewer jobs, and 3-5% less GDP.

According to google, interest on US debt is on average 3.29%. How many people do you think would take out a 10/20 year loan for a third of their income at 3.29%? Especially if it meant ensuring growth in the first place so that you actually have the capacity to pay it back.
***1) Its not just interest, its principle you have to pay back. 2. 3.29% on $15T? Thats $493Bn a year. 3. That amount is not going down but up as the deficit continues to blow through a trillion a year. 4. You hit a point where there is no more money left to borrow unless you go for absurdly high rates.

Just going "wow those numbers are big, obama must be wrong" is very childish.
***You're right. Good thing its not what I did.

Explain exactly why you think the stimulus was a bad idea.
***It wasn't a stimulus. It was the greatest government/union slush fund in history.

Explain how America would be in a better position with a couple of million fewer jobs, and 3-5% less GDP.
***As soon as you prove the "stimulus" stopped that I'll believe you.

Interesting. If you used GAAP accounting the real deficit would have been $5T last year.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2012-05-18/federal-deficit-accounting/55179748/1

AustonT wrote:

Taskmaster99 wrote:Im not really worried about an economic collapse......Im a gun nut...have plenty of protection for myself and my wife and a ton of ammo to boot. Try and loot my house.......I dare ya!!!

Never say this in a public forum.

Yeah, it's basically like saying "hey look at me, I'm a TARGET!"

Melissia wrote:

AustonT wrote:

Taskmaster99 wrote:Im not really worried about an economic collapse......Im a gun nut...have plenty of protection for myself and my wife and a ton of ammo to boot. Try and loot my house.......I dare ya!!!

Never say this in a public forum.

Yeah, it's basically like saying "hey look at me, I'm a TARGET!"

Not too worried about it.

I'm sure, internet tough guy and all.

Melissia wrote:I'm sure, internet tough guy and all.

Never once said i was a tough guy. I just know what I will do to keep my wife and household safe. I dont see anything wrong with that.

Economic collapse? is it going to happen? YES get used to it

Joey wrote:Setting aside that's he's "impoded the financial", a 5 trillion dollar increase in debt isn't that big - 33% of GDP.

It actually is a really big number, and it's something that needs multiple long term solutions to address, to kick in once the poor economic times have ended.


Basically the US had a deficit blow out in the 1980s. To some extent this was understandable, you started that decade in recession as well. But in large part it was due to tax cuts and spending increases to areas of the economy that do not provide much stimulus, and do not encourage future economic growth (ie defence spending). This was not disastrous, and was in fact not only solveable but was straight up solved - though Clinton gets the credit much of the good work to bring the budget under control was undertaken by GHW Bush (and like anyone that solves a long term problem, you guys voted him out of office for inflicting short term pain).

That good work led to surpluses in the late 90s, and while a return to poor economic times following the .com bubble meant a drop back into deficits, long term the future looked pretty solid. Unfortunately you also had GW Bush, who'd learnt the lessons from his dad's presidency, so he was committed to delivering a tax cut no matter how little sense it made for long term financial stability. Couple in a Republican congress that just didn't apply any restrictions to spending and you had unsustainable deficit spending, even in the latter part of the decade when economic activity was strong.

So in 2008 when the country dropped back into recession, you got incredibly poor deficit results, and then you add stimulus spending on top of that.

Add a bunch of young, incredibly ignorant politicians riding the back of popular discontent, who think that a recession is the greatest time ever to cut back on spending, and you have our current situation.

Because apparently they don't see what austerity during a recession did to Greece.

loki old fart wrote:Economic collapse? is it going to happen? YES* get used to it

* Eventually.

Many pro-asian economist says that the wests will be drowned in the crisis and asians will survive and thrive.

What do you say?

How?

One says that Asian nations will trade with UAE and Africa.
Also many Asian nations will increases its tradings among each others. China will find its big clients once the AEC zone comes alive!

Lone Cat wrote:One says that Asian nations will trade with UAE and Africa.
Also many Asian nations will increases its tradings among each others. China will find its big clients once the AEC zone comes alive!

Thats an interesting and unique view.

A small part of me would enjoy utter ruin, you know how we all like TV shows because they are exciting and full of suspense?

A total breakdown in society, lawlessness and looting, maybe something nuts would be kinda cool. I mean, once A game of Thrones finishes, I paint my last 8 Space Marines and I get my barbarian to level 60, I'm going to be at odds for stuff to do.

An interesting take on debt.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6019992706449012651&hl=en

loki old fart wrote:An interesting take on debt.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6019992706449012651&hl=en

I have no idea what they're talking about but they're in Derby


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Lone Cat wrote:Many pro-asian economist says that the wests will be drowned in the crisis and asians will survive and thrive.

What do you say?

Many Asian historians also say the Great Leap Forward never happened and that Tibet has always been a part of China.
Eastern academia doesn't have a lot of respect in the West. Western free-market nations are not going to start taking lessons from a state capitalist country with a property bubble the size of the Germany economy.

Friend in Greece thinks civil war there soon

Joey wrote:Many Asian historians also say the Great Leap Forward never happened and that Tibet has always been a part of China.
Eastern academia doesn't have a lot of respect in the West. Western free-market nations are not going to start taking lessons from a state capitalist country with a property bubble the size of the Germany economy.

I'm pretty sure he wrote "pro-asian economists" (which says nothing about the nationality of said economists) and not "Chinese officials".

Don't count on the West "drowning" any time soon ; if anything, what I can envision is a more or less durable slowdown as we dabble in debt reduction (not accounting for possible euro gakstorm if/when Greece finally reverts to the drachma). I'm certainly anticipating a rebalancing toward Asia, if only because of the growing internal demand from the monster-sized Chinese market. Trade is already mainly intra-regional, but US and EU still represent a huge part of Chinese exports ; I think China is smart enough to deliver a smooth transition as the two trends cross. They've been pretty nimble at deflating or at least managing that bubble so far ; we can safely assume it would have gone completely unnoticed anywhere else if the last decades are anything to go by.

I for one am looking forward to taking a wheelbarrow full of cash down to the market to pay for a single loaf of bread.

Lone Cat wrote:Many pro-asian economist says that the wests will be drowned in the crisis and asians will survive and thrive.

What do you say?

I think as soon as you start identifying as a 'pro-asian economist' you've basically lost academic credibility and should replace the word 'economist' with 'cheerleader'.

Also, that summary is gibberish. The developing Asian economies are tied to the hip of Western economies, and if the West 'drowns in crisis' then Asia will follow. I mean, the GFC saw 40 million newly unemployed in China, and riots on the streets in which people died.

We will likely see greater shifts in power and status to China, and sometime after that to India, but that's very different thing to the Asian century that some Chinese* commentators like to fantasise about.



*And some American and European nutters like to predict as well, in order to berate the West for whatever bugbear that author happens to have.


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loki old fart wrote:An interesting take on debt.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6019992706449012651&hl=en

Economic illiteracy. They have no idea how a central bank actually operates, or who controls it.

And then it meanders into the same old utterly mistaken understanding of fractional banking you always see in this kinds of videos.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:I for one am looking forward to taking a wheelbarrow full of cash down to the market to pay for a single loaf of bread.

Don't worry about that.

I am making an app for it.