Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

"Necron firepower units are expensive, weak and short ranged"

I'm sorry, but what? They have a good 24" radius, cheaper than standard space marines, reanimation protocols, and gauss rule. Not counting the immortals with their Tau power weaponry, alongside the telsa and still with reanimation protocols, and space marine armor.

24" is a pitiful threat radius, and infantry in general aren't firepower units. Psyflemen are firepower units, longfangs are firepower units, and so on. Necrons don't have any - they are exactly that - expensive, weak, and short-ranged.

Randall Turner wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

"Necron firepower units are expensive, weak and short ranged"

I'm sorry, but what? They have a good 24" radius, cheaper than standard space marines, reanimation protocols, and gauss rule. Not counting the immortals with their Tau power weaponry, alongside the telsa and still with reanimation protocols, and space marine armor.

24" is a pitiful threat radius, and infantry in general aren't firepower units. Psyflemen are firepower units, longfangs are firepower units, and so on. Necrons don't have any - they are exactly that - expensive, weak, and short-ranged.

Annihilation barge's make for some good firepower units, alongside the royal court, like cheap obliterate units with weaker lascannon settings. Though the lack of AP1 is rather an annoyance, not to mention both those units are underpriced regardless.

CSM get double meltaguns at 10 models strong. You're also grossly underestimating the power of the Marks, especially the Mark of Khorne. 3 attacks base means they don't fall over to just any schmuck, and anything strong enough to sweep them is probably strong enough to wipe them out completely anyway. How anyone can come to the conclusion that Tactical Squads are better than Chaos Space Marines boggles my mind. This also, interestingly enough, emphasizes what Ailaros has been saying: it's not a comparable standard, because it's subjective.

For something 60 points more expensive I'd better hope it was better, though I've had quite a few annoying cases where wound allocation ended up killing off my icons, so I've often disliked the concept over the general mark system, but that's a bit of bias on my part.

In combat with tac marines you'd kill about 3 to 4, with one to two losses (Given sarge and champion a pfist) That is rather disappointing considering about a 240+ cost (Without shooting, and without giving the benefit of the charge to either)

What I mean is the core rules cover ALL units interaction .
ALL units have the same charactersistics .

For example if we use a simple alternative to the AP system.
Every unit has an Armour value,(Vehicles AND MCs have front side rear as now.)
All weapons have an Armour Peircing value.
When a model is hit it rolls a D6 and adds this result to its armour value.
IF this value is greater than the AP of the weapon the model has made an armour save and takes no damage.
If this value is equal or less than the weapons AP value the model fails its armour save and may take damage.

Eg SM fires a Boltgun AP6 at an ork AV2.
The ork need to roll 5+ to make his save .
If the ork was wearing Mega Armour AV 5 it would only need to roll a 2+ to save.
But if the SM was carrying a Meltagun AP 10, it would need to roll a 6+ to save!

This gives a scalable resoluiton(variable saves depending on what AP the weapon has.)That can be aplied to all units, including vehicles.

A similar resolution system can be used for determing damage.Weapon damage(Strenght) vs targets Damage Threshold(Toughness.)
Attacker rolls a D6 and add its weapon damage value.if this is higher than the models damage threshold, the target takes damage.

And just using a Mobility stat to show how far the unit may move up to in inches, when the model takes a movement action.(1/2 Mobility for dificult and 1/4 Mobility for very difficult terrain.)

The idea is we use characteristic and resolution methods that cover the wide variety of units in the 40k universe in the most straight forward way.

Units have -Mobility, protection , robustness, stealth, morale, command.

Weapons have- effective range /AP /damge/effect/notes.

I may not have explained that too well sorry.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Annihilation barge's make for some good firepower units, alongside the royal court, like cheap obliterate units with weaker lascannon settings. Though the lack of AP1 is rather an annoyance, not to mention both those units are underpriced regardless.

Don't buy Luide's snake-oil on the "Necron undercosted" thing, he's just being a GK apologist. Harbingers of Destruction are 35-point missile launchers with 36" range - expensive and short ranged. Annihilation Barges are 24" range vehicles - they're not long range enough to even be considered base-of-fire units. Necrons can not make a shooty list. My point though, was that they benefit from codex synergy - because they can bring on night-fight their short range isn't as much of a liability. Likewise, if they were able to purchase fire support units like other codices, they really *would* be overpowered. (Try playing against them teamed up with IG or Tau.) You have to look at the codex as a whole.

Randall Turner wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Annihilation barge's make for some good firepower units, alongside the royal court, like cheap obliterate units with weaker lascannon settings. Though the lack of AP1 is rather an annoyance, not to mention both those units are underpriced regardless.

Don't buy Luide's snake-oil on the "Necron undercosted" thing, he's just being a GK apologist. Harbingers of Destruction are 35-point missile launchers with 36" range - expensive and short ranged. Annihilation Barges are 24" range vehicles - they're not long range enough to even be considered base-of-fire units. Necrons can not make a shooty list. My point though, was that they benefit from codex synergy - because they can bring on night-fight their short range isn't as much of a liability. Likewise, if they were able to purchase fire support units like other codices, they really *would* be overpowered. (Try playing against them teamed up with IG or Tau.) You have to look at the codex as a whole.

Okay I had originally believed the Annihilators had a 36" range before, I apologize, having just pulled the book out now to take a look.

Though some codex's can do well with that viewpoint, I see what you mean now at least. Most of the time when someone pulls out the "The units are approximately costed due to the purpose of the units" I often see it used in the defense of the Space Wolves codex. Though unlike said codex, the necron one works far better with that example. Rather than an excuse where a codex has some equivalents being far weaker than what Space Wolves can put out.

I tend not to believe the Necrons being undercosted/overcosted without seeing a good example with my own eyes as well as statistical data gathered up. Though I havn't honestly played necrons enough to gauge their full power. Though trying to gauge whether Wraiths are undercosted is going to give me a headache. In that it, alongside scarabs is the only thing I have no honest clue about whether to gauge it.

No stress. They're okay, and they're very fun b/c they're completely different. You probably need to play the Scarabs and Wraiths a couple times to judge, they are odd - especially Scarabs.