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Manchu wrote:You are not talking about laws; you are talking about mobs. The police officer who wants to arrest a criminal protected by a mob of people doesn't suddenly lose his authority to arrest the criminal just because he can't overcome the mob.

This might come across badly due to talking over the internet, that is not the intent, but I'm not sure how you see laws as working. Laws are established by the "mob" (the populace) and only exist so long as the populace believes they exist. Or is the USA not a real country because they chose to ignore the law of Britain and declare itself its own country?

A police officer doesn't lose his authority because a single mob doesn't recognize it, no, because there is a lot more people that DO recognize it. Law is by its very nature a shared illusion voluntarily participated in by the majority and upon the minority. It does not exist outside the minds of those that believe in it. It is an incredibly useful illusion and has brought humanity far, but it is still an illusion.

if 80% of the populace does not recognize the law the Police Officer serves, or his authority, then it in effect does not exit.

riplikash wrote:Laws are established by the "mob" (the populace) and only exist so long as the populace believes they exist.

Nope. Authority exists regardless of popular consent. You keep talking about the Imperium like it's a middle school civics class lesson plan on the social contract. It ain't. When the "mob" gets unruly, they get beaten down.


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riplikash wrote:if 80% of the populace does not recognize the law the Police Officer serves, or his authority, then it in effect does not exit.

If 80% of the population controls 0% of the tools of coercive authority then the other 20% of the population will have no trouble ruling the 80%, regardless of consent or "belief."

Kaldor wrote:In response to the terrorism question: The greatest weapon of terrorists is the humanity of their opponents. They hide in the general population, and their targets refuse to use weapons of mass destruction or genocide to eradicate them. The Imperium of Man has no issue with annihilating the entire planetary population if they have to.

riplikash wrote:"In politics, an authoritarian government is one in which political authority is concentrated in a small group of politicians."
Well that certainly isn't the case. The Imperium has an insanely decentralized government, with numerous nodes of power that are largely independent of one another. Space Marine Chapters, Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, and the High Lords are largely independent of each other. Likewise, the Imperium lacks much direct control over local governors.

No, at the end of the day all power resides with the High Lords.

The High Lords can, and sometimes do, decide the fate of entire sectors, let alone entire planetary populations. People might be able to get away with a lot of stuff on the lower end of the scale, but not because of the way the system is structured. Heaven help anyone foolish enough to draw the eye of the Imperium, for their power is limitless.

Yes but most of the time the lower ranks of the Adminstrivate, Eleceisrah (Feth I can't spell) have responsabilities to ensure the governors stay in line. That is not the concern of the Highlords of terra. Their concern is for the gaxaly. not an indiviual. It is like a CEO being bothered to help act on a lower employee. No it is the Manager of that employee that has to deal with it. Not the Highlords/CEO. They are still human, that can't multitask and say yes bomb here, exterminatus here, and also raise taxes here. Oh no, thats not their responsibility their responsibility is to watch over and see the profits, the Highlords can only control what they are above. The highlords aren't going to bother themselves with a little terrorist act.
Not every system is being rooted of heresy. Planteray governors are basically the Nobility they have responsibilities to hold the Imperial Creed, the Imperial Tithe, No heresy, no gene mutations, and the Imperial Law.
Riplikash is not actually making this stuff up.
This is what the imperium is.
The Imperium doesn't hold direct control over every single planet of the Greater Imperium, they make the laws, but it is up to the Governors to Hold the laws and enforce them. And when they need aid the Imperium Administrive sends someone to help usually Adeptus Atributes.

The Imperium is kinda of a mess, but it cannot deal with every single local problem in one tiny idy bity system. They are dealing with bigger issues called war, corruption, chaos, and a bunch of other things. Any local issue goes to the governor, if it escalates one of the Local Forces looks at it. Above that Adeptus Arbitues, then if they really need it Inquisition. Not every planet is destroyed. Very rarely does a planet get turned into an exterminatus as everyone on Dakka believes, it takes a fleet to destroy a planet and its inhabitants. If every small heresy was taken with drastic action there would be no imperium, there would be no planets. There would be no heresy. Because everyone would be dead.

*scatters back into the abyss*

Asherian Command wrote:Riplikash is not actually making this stuff up.

The part he is making up is that subordinates have any rights protecting them against their superiors in the Imperium.

Manchu wrote:There is nothing to indicate that when the High Lords summarily dismiss a planetary governor, for any reason whatsoever, that they are acting unlawfully.

No, it is something I have seen every time the Imperium has dismissed a planetary governor, and because of how feudal governments work. They are always declared heretic or outed for not paying the tithe, or given a voluntary way to step down a la becoming a rogue trader. I have seen lots of examples of the Imperium acting in such a way to support such a set up. I would be interested if you have any examples to the contrary.

Again, this is something that you seem to have made up based on the idea that Imperium is somehow an example of a social contract.

Governments cannot exist in absence of a social contract. It is from the social contract they derive all their power. It is due to the social contract that solders join and fight, that people follow their leaders, that taxes are paid and property acknowledge. The Imperium is made up of people working together for mutual benefit. That is the definition of social contract. No organization can exist without it. Government cannot exist without two way obligations.

The question isn't wether those obligations exist, it is what exactly they are.

I'm beginning to see that you don't understand that a planetary governor is the representative of the High Lords on that planet; not the representative of the planet to the High Lords.

I disagree. It's a bit of both, but the planetary governor is absolutely the representative of the planet. The Imperium has no problem with planets killing their governor and appointing new ones, so long as the pay the tithe. They have no problem with planets setting up democratic governments, despotisms, monarchies, or theocracies, so long as they pay the tithe. Should the planets representative fail they can indeed be replaced. But a vassal represents his fief to the parent government.

Actually, it didn't work out that way at all. The Terra Nova Interregnum was crushed and it only took about 900 years. The very existence of the Imperium is premised on going out on a Great Crusade and "disenfranchising" the whole damn galaxy.

Again, that was still an example of the minority having the law of the majority imposed on them. If the majority didn't support the Imperium it could not continue to function.

Manchu wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Riplikash is not actually making this stuff up.

The part he is making up is that subordinates have any rights protecting them against their superiors in the Imperium.

Err. That part is Kinda just eh.
In some systems yes. In most systems in the Imperium. Feth no. They would be executed. There is no freedom of speech in the imperium.

Asherian Command wrote:And when they need aid the Imperium Administrive sends someone to help usually Adeptus Atributes.

As I mentioned on page 1, the Adeptus Arbites is not sent by anyone but itself. It is completely independent of the Administratum. And it's primary goal on every planet where it operates is to insure loyalty to the Adpetus Terra via enforcing the Lex Imperialis. A planetary governor is not in command of the local Arbites precinct. They answer to their own chain-of-command all the way up to their representative High Lord, the Grand Provost Marshal.

Yet another example of totalitarian structure ...


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Asherian Command wrote:In some systems yes.

In all systems, no.

Manchu wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:And when they need aid the Imperium Administrive sends someone to help usually Adeptus Atributes.

As I mentioned on page 1, the Adeptus Arbites is not sent by anyone but itself. It is completely independent of the Administratum. And it's primary goal on every planet where it operates is to insure loyalty to the Adpetus Terra via enforcing the Lex Imperialis. A planetary governor is not in command of the local Arbites precinct. They answer to their own chain-of-command all the way up to their representative High Lord, the Grand Provost Marshal.

Yet another example of totalitarian structure ...


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Asherian Command wrote:In some systems yes.

In all systems, no.

No space marine Worlds peoples have rights, because they are protected by Adeptus Astartes. No highlord can in anyway execute an Astartes Homeworld Denzins unless the Astartes say its fine. (which mind you I have no idea why the hell a Highlord of Terra would actually want the death of a single citizen if that citizen was a thousand light years away. Its not his problem)

Arbites Answer to the Highlord yes. but they also send out tasks forces if they asked too, they can deny but they can also say okay. Same with the Astartes, IG, and Custodes (even though they do nothing!).

riplikash wrote:No, it is something I have seen every time the Imperium has dismissed a planetary governor, and because of how feudal governments work.

Just how many of these dismissals have you witnessed? Could you provide a source? I hope this isn't the part where you say the Inquisitor uses "heresy" as an excuse to do something otherwise illegal. I've already shown you why that is a meaningless argument.

Governments cannot exist in absence of a social contract.

They can and do.

but the planetary governor is absolutely the representative of the planet.

No, he is Terra's representative to the planet. He rules in the name of the Emperor. His authority and legitimacy come from Terra.


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Asherian Command wrote:No space marine Worlds peoples have rights, because they are protected by Adeptus Astartes.

Your argument is actually that the Astartes have rights, including the right to manage their serfs. Actually, this is a privilege. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the Emperor is the Master of Mankind. Everyone else gets whatever authority they enjoy as a matter of delegation. In other words, everyone else serves at his pleasure. Since he's not going around himself these days, we can say that basically the everyone else serves at the pleasure of the Adeptus Terra, the Adeptus Machanicus, and the Inquisition.

Manchu wrote:Nope. Authority exists regardless of popular consent. You keep talking about the Imperium like it's a middle school civics class lesson plan on the social contract. It ain't. When the "mob" gets unruly, they get beaten down.

By another mob, yes. The larger, better armed mob. Authority cannot exist regardless of popular consent. A government with no popular consent has no solders to enact its will, no way to feed them. The minority cannot rule the majority in absence of consent for long periods of time, certainly not for 10, years. The consent may even be grudging, but it must exist.

riplikash wrote:They are not. Authority only exists when people believe it exists.

The only person who needs to believe in authority is the person who has the capacity to enforce it.

But until consent is granted authority does not exist.

No, authority exists as long as it can be enforced.

How can any group derive authority from the word of the Emperor and act against the plan he set up?

They can't. That's the point: it's a totalitarian system.

Manchu wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:And when they need aid the Imperium Administrive sends someone to help usually Adeptus Atributes.

As I mentioned on page 1, the Adeptus Arbites is not sent by anyone but itself. It is completely independent of the Administratum. And it's primary goal on every planet where it operates is to insure loyalty to the Adpetus Terra via enforcing the Lex Imperialis. A planetary governor is not in command of the local Arbites precinct. They answer to their own chain-of-command all the way up to their representative High Lord, the Grand Provost Marshal.

Yet another example of totalitarian structure ...

Uh, no. All policing agencies have similar command structures. Totalitarian doesn't mean "command structure", it mean command structure with a single ruling body with unlimited authority that attempts to control all aspects of life both public and private.

The Imperium has no single ruling body that controls the whole thing (except the Emperor, who is political non gratis), but instead multiply that act as checks and balances. It doesn't try and control all levels of Imperial public and private life. It is not a totalitarian government by any definition I have seen. If you can find a comprehensive, reliable definition that matches Imperial government, I would be interested to see it.


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Manchu wrote:Just how many of these dismissals have you witnessed? Could you provide a source?

I hope this isn't the part where you say the Inquisitor uses "heresy" as an excuse to do something otherwise illegal.

Of course it happens, are you claiming the Inquisition is incorruptible? It is well known that is not the case. The most high profile examples are Inquisitors turning to chaos, who use their authority to serve the dark gods, but there are many other examples in the fluff. I can remember of at least one story (White Dwarf I think?) of an inquisitor appointing his son an inquisitor, and his son used his authority for personal gain and pleasure, eventually falling to Slaanesh I think.

I've already shown you why that is a meaningless argument

Don't remember that.

Governments cannot exist in absence of a social contract.

They can and do.

I've already spoken at length about how even a coersive government exists due to a social contrat. Even if the contract is as simple as "I wont hit you if you do what I say" it exists, and even in such a situation any authority derived from it dissipates once the contractee is convinced the contractor won't uphold his bargain. Once a prisoner is convinced he will be hurt wether he does what his captor says or not, the captor loses all authority derived from said contract.

but the planetary governor is absolutely the representative of the planet.

No, he is Terra's representative to the planet. He rules in the name of the Emperor. His authority and legitimacy come from Terra.

Well now your just saying "nu'uh". I gave support for my supposition, I haven't seen any from your for this one. As I said, it can be both ways. The Imperium often allows planets to choose their own governors and government. They don't care if a planet offs its governor, so long as it pays the tithe. This provides strong evidence for the fact that the governor represents the planet for the Imperium. I am open to evidence to the contrary.

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Asherian Command wrote:No space marine Worlds peoples have rights, because they are protected by Adeptus Astartes.

Your argument is actually that the Astartes have rights, including the right to manage their serfs. Actually, this is a privilege. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the Emperor is the Master of Mankind. Everyone else gets whatever authority they enjoy as a matter of delegation. In other words, everyone else serves at his pleasure. Since he's not going around himself these days, we can say that basically the everyone else serves at the pleasure of the Adeptus Terra, the Adeptus Machanicus, and the Inquisition.

A totalitarian government is one that claims total (that is limitless) authority over everything. The Imperium does this. The Imperium has an agency to tell you how to dress, eat, gak, pray, think, etc. Just because it does not always chose to exercise the authority it claims, or can't do so because of the scale of the galaxy, doesn't mean that it doesn't claim that authority. And if anyone, even an entire Segemntum worth of someones, steps out of line enough to indicate a claim contrary to the totalitarian claim, the totalitarian government of the Imperium will (although not always swiftly) "correct" the situation with extreme prejudice.


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I've already spoken at length about how even a coersive government exists due to a social contrat.

That is not what anyone who knows what social contract means uses the term. Please take the time to at least think of what the word contract means. Mutual assent is a definitive element of contract.

The Imperium often allows planets to choose their own governors and government.

It doesn't matter how he is chosen. Without Terra's consent, he is nothing but a traitor.

And since the Emperor did not give the Adeptus Terra, the Adeptus Machanus, or the Inquisition authority over the Astartes, they do not in fact serve at their pleasure.

The Adeptus Astartes is a part of Adeptus Terra. I'm surprised you're arguing so passionately without the benefit of the basic information.

The difference between right and priviledge is that of perspective.

No. A right exists independently from the parties involved. A privilege is dependent on the parties involved.

Manchu wrote:A totalitarian government is one that claims total (that is limitless) authority over everything.

Source please? I just double checked several, and none of them agree with that definition. I feel like this is getting more heated than I would like, and this probably isn't going to help, but I have a suspicion that you are making up a convenient definition. Not trying to be confrontational, it just sounds suspiciously simple.

The Imperium has an agency to tell you how to dress, eat, gak, pray, think, etc.

Source again? I've never heard of anything like this. Imperial fluff consistently presents the Imperium as being hands off when it comes to daily life, and the governing of worlds in general.

Just because it does not always chose to exercise the authority it claims, or can't do so because of the scale of the galaxy, doesn't mean that it doesn't claim that authority.

Again, source? The Emperor has absolute authority, but he bounded the authority of his servants, who constitute the real governing body of the Imperium. None of the active ruling bodies of the Imperium can claim unlimited authority. They are all held in check by one another.

And if anyone, even an entire Segemntum worth of someones, steps out of line enough to indicate a claim contrary to the totalitarian claim, the totalitarian government of the Imperium will (although not always swiftly) "correct" the situation with extreme prejudice.

If an entire segmentum rebelled the Imperium could not do anything about it. They would either have to let them succeed, or collapse in civil war. A planet, system, or sector? Sure. A segmentum? Possibly over 25% of their fighting forces, food sources, and manufacturing facilities? Absolutely not. They are facing too many threats.


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That is not what anyone who knows what social contract means uses the term. Please take the time to at least think of what the word contract means. Mutual assent is a definitive element of contract.

Sure it is. Many of my professors and textbooks used it in such terms, and went out of their way to explain that for a society to exist, for a government to exist, SOME form of social contract must also exist. Wikipedias definition:
"The social contract or political contract is an intellectual construct that typically addresses two questions, first, that of the origin of society, and second, the question of the legitimacy of the authority of the state over the individual. Social contract arguments typically posit that individuals have consented, either explicitly or tacitly, to surrender some of their freedoms and submit to the authority of the ruler or magistrate (or to the decision of a majority), in exchange for protection of their natural rights. The question of the relation between natural and legal rights, therefore, is often an aspect of social contract theory."

The legitimacy of the authority of the state can be threat of force. Individuals consent to surrender some of their freedoms and submit to authority of the ruler in exchange for protection of their natural rights, as defined by the contract. Those natural rights can be as limited as "the right to live" or "right to not get beat anymore", e.g. do what we say or we hurt you. If the government violates the contract to the point where their citizens no longer believe in that shared illusion, they lose all authority. It's hard to threaten someone into subservience when they know you will kill them either way.

It doesn't matter how he is chosen. Without Terra's consent, he is nothing but a traitor

Terra doesn't get involved in the process. Terra cares about the tithe, not who rules.

The Adeptus Astartes is a part of Adeptus Terra. I'm surprised you're arguing so passionately without the benefit of the basic information.

Right, my apologies, I got confused at that one. I was thinking about the Adeptus Terra as a catch all term for the administratum and the High Lords, when in fact it is a blanket term covering all the basic Imperial bureaucratic organizations.

Interestingly, not even the Adeptas Terra has total control though, as the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition are not a part of it. So ever there, there is a balance of power.

The difference between right and priviledge is that of perspective.

No. A right exists independently from the parties involved. A privilege is dependent on the parties involved.

Sure, I'll grant that definition of right. I don't think it is an oficial one, but I will grant that it is a useful definition for this discussion.

That doesn't make rights any less perspective dependent. A common term is "god given right". From the perspective of those involved, it's a right. From the perspective of god, it's a privilege he can redact. Same thing with government granted rights. For those involved it is a right, but from the governments perspective it is a privilege, something dependent on them that they can change or redact at will.

By that definition the various adeptas and organizations have rights as well, Emperor granted rights. Between the parties involved they are rights, and immutable, as they were handed down by the Emperor. The Emperor of course could change or redact them, but in the interactions between those organizations, they are rights.

Of Adeptus Terra:

Its offices span the galaxy and its power extends to every human world. No man is free from its influence or from the strictures of its rule.

BGB p.102

As for reconquering an entire segementum, please see the Cataclysm of Souls.

Now about this delegation point. In a totalitarian government, there are all sorts of agencies. None of them exercise absolute authority over everything else. But within their own jurisdictions, they do exercise absolute authority. They do this because the government they constitute claims absolute authority over everything.

Manchu wrote:Of Adeptus Terra:

Its offices span the galaxy and its power extends to every human world. No man is free from its influence or from the strictures of its rule.

BGB p.102

I'm not really seeing anything there saying they can govern how people dress or where they pee, or any number of other things you listed, or that it has totalitarian authority. Just that no one is free from Imperial rule.

A stricture is a religious tenet, and is encompassed in worshipping the Emperor and avoiding chaos and heresy.

I'm still not seeing anything there supporting either your or my interpretation of the government. Both easily fall within that description.

As for reconquering an entire segementum, please see the Cataclysm of Souls.

Ok, I accept that. I would still be doubtful of the Imperiums ability to reconquer an entire segmentum in M41, as bad as things are. But the Cataclysm of Souls is an excellent example of them having done it in the past.

Now about this delegation point. In a totalitarian government, there are all sorts of agencies. None of them exercise absolute authority over everything else. But within their own jurisdictions, they do exercise absolute authority. They do this because the government they constitute claims absolute authority over everything.

Maybe you are confusing totalitarian governments with authoritarian? In that case I agree. I already said that while the Imperium itself isn't an authoritarian organization, numerous organizations within the Imperium are, and that the populace in general has a very authoritarian mindset.

But if you are using that as a definition of a totalitarian government, that's just off. It has to be controlled by a single, central authority, and that authority has to attempt to control all aspects of culture, public, and private life. Many worlds are totalitarian, but the Imperium itself doesn't operate as such.

Go check some definitions real fast. Some of the dictionaries. It is true that the way it is used popular vernacular (as a synonym for authoritarian and dictatorship), and you will find that reflected in some of the secondary definition. But any technical definition of totalitarian presents a political system that just doesn't match what the Imperium does.

I agree that in many was the words "totalitarian", "authoritarian", and "dictatorship"--as they are used in the popular vernacular--can be applied to the Imperium. But if you look at the technical definition of the word, it is not an totalitarian government. It lacks all the key aspects save for an authoritarian streak. No interest in fine level control of culture, public, and private lives. Little interest in the fine workings of the economy. No rule of arbitrary law (the Emperors laws being immutable). No central authority focused in the hands of a small number of politicians that can claim unlimited control over every aspect of the government (save the Emperor). No single, unified party in control. No single party system (indeed, there are many parties vying for control of the Imperium).

The Imperium is the very model of centralization. Look at the diagram in the 5th Edition BGB -- the Emperor is at the center and everything else radiates from him. The Sixth Edition rulebook shows a top-down diagram to show the same principal. The Golden Palace is the literal center of the Imperium, where the High Lords theoretically manage every aspect of human life in the galaxy. If they decided that everyone should wear white gloves, slowly but surely all humans throughout the galaxy would wear white gloves. The factual constraint of the scale of the galaxy does not bear whatsoever on the fact that they claim the authority to impose their strictures at the level of individual lives, as the quotation I cited shows.

Sorry to go off the current discussion of power politics in the Imperium, but I want to address this:

Kaldor wrote:In response to the terrorism question: The greatest weapon of terrorists is the humanity of their opponents. They hide in the general population, and their targets refuse to use weapons of mass destruction or genocide to eradicate them. The Imperium of Man has no issue with annihilating the entire planetary population if they have to.

This is a gross underestimation of the value of human life and planets in the Imperium. You make it seem like someone dropping litter is a green light to eradicate the population. Exterminatus is an absolute final last resort. If using it was as popular as you seem to think it is, particularly for quelling terrorism, then what's the point in any of the judicial processes or military needs of the Imperium? I'll tell you what the point is: planets and humans are useful, ergo we should try and not destroy them. Such lessons were learned on Krieg, which after being diminished to near uselessness from nuclear warfare (which incidentally was a case of loyalists vs rebels), the population vowed never to use such weapons again.

However, assuming you didn't mean such things literally, i.e. the Imperium doesn't value human life that much so civilian casualties aren't too big an issue, then I'd say that depends on the value of the target:
Terrorists take a common family hostage, say they'll blow their brains out if their demands aren't met. Or they're planning on bombing public transport. Pfft, fill the place with bolter rounds, let them know we don't care about such hostages and we'll kill anyone else who tries something like this again.
Terrorists take someone more important hostage, let's say a commander of the PDF or local police, or a planetary councillor, etc. Or they plan on bombing a PDF, police, or government building. Then the local authorities will probably want to stop them without any collateral.
Terrorists take hostages or plan to attack buildings with links to the wider Imperium? Then the forces of the wider Imperium step in to deal with it, again trying to avoid collateral.

Manchu wrote:The Imperium is the very model of centralization. Look at the diagram in the 5th Edition BGB -- the Emperor is at the center and everything else radiates from him. The Sixth Edition rulebook shows a top-down diagram to show the same principal. The Golden Palace is the literal center of the Imperium, where the High Lords theoretically manage every aspect of human life in the galaxy. If they decided that everyone should wear white gloves, slowly but surely all humans throughout the galaxy would wear white gloves. The factual constraint of the scale of the galaxy does not bear whatsoever on the fact that they claim the authority to impose their strictures at the level of individual lives, as the quotation I cited shows.

A similar chart can be drawn for the US government, ending in the president, but that doesn't make it centralized. The peak of your chart is a non-entity. The highest level is decentralized and split amongst numerous organizations.

The quote you provided in no way claims the Imperium has the levels of control you describe, as I adressed. Its a vague statement that merely says the Imperium controls all known human planets and has some form of control over them. It just as easily be describing a totalitarian government, a democracy, a feudal government, or a loose theocratic federation. It states their power is broad, everyone is touched by it, and that there are religious tenets all ascribe too.

Your supposition of their authority to make everyone wear white gloves is not demonstrated in the fluff anywhere, either outright or by implication. I accept that the Emperor may have had such authority, but I have not seen anywhere where it says any organization he set up has such authority.

The truth is, we don't KNOW the extent of the authority the Emperor granted them, or the specifics of their vassal contacts. We can only make extrapolations based on the actions of the entities in question. Based on the Imperiums description as a feudal society, the many examples I see of it being a feudal society, the Imperiums non-interfence in local matters, the rights or the admech, rogue traders, and astartes, the loose nature of hte ecclesiarchy, and the method used for selecting planetary governors, and the general culture of the Imperium, I feel there is strong evidence to suggest they are a feudal society governed by a traditional vassal/lord relationship.

I'm fine with other feeling the relationship is different, but I am just not seeing the fluff justification. I don't feel the quote you supplied gives any indication of how absolute the control of the leaders of Imperium is. I'm fine with you interpreting it that way however.

So, yeah, we're just going to have to disagree on that one, which I'm fine with. I hope it hasn't felt heated to anyone, as I have quite enjoyed the discussion.

Alright, I'm home, and I have access to my small library. Time for some quotes.

Regarding the power of the High Lords:

Codex Imperialis wrote:The Imperium is ruled in the Emperor's name by the incalculably vast Adeptus Terra, the ancient Priesthood of Earth, whose masters are the High Lords of Terra. The Adeptus Terra numbers billions upon billions of individuals on Earth alone. Its offices span the galaxy, and its powers extend to every human world. No man is free from its influence or from the strictures of its rule. The Emperor has become a god in whose name the High Lords of Terra rule the Imperium. Superstition and dogma have become the rituals of worship. [...]

The High Lords are the twelve most powerful men in the galaxy. They rule the Imperium in the Emperor's name, and it is they who send the Imperium's fleets to war and who direct the Imperium's inexhaustible armies. Their task is to interpret and enact the Emperor's will, relying upon His potent mind to guide their thoughts and inspire their actions.

Accompanying commentary: The High Lords literally speak as and represent the God-Emperor Himself. Do you really believe the Emperor would be unable to replace some lowly governor just because, say, He doesn't like his face?

Regarding Planetary Governors:

Codex Imperialis wrote:With the exception of those worlds controlled directly by the Adeptus, the Ministorum and the Space Marines, the worlds of the Imperium are governed by local rulers who hold nominal membership of the Adeptus Terra with the title of Imperial Commander. Their role and responsibilities may be likened to medieval feudal lords: they must provide troops for service in the Imperial Guard, they must maintain order over the domain, they must carry out the Imperial decrees that are imposed upon them, and they must pay the tithes levies on them by the Administratum. Apart from feudal duties, planetary government is a matter of individual rulers; the Adeptus does not interfere with the government of planets so long as all remains well.

Accompanying commentary: "Imperial decrees imposed upon them" - decrees that may well be worded like: "You're out. -signed, the High Lords"
Nowhere is any sort of immunity or protection mentioned, ever, and even in real history we have sufficient examples of a King replacing his nobles on a whim. In the end, the Emperor owns the planet, and he owns the governor. This means the High Lords own both. Rejection of a decree like this amounts to heresy and treason against the Emperor Himself and summon an appropriate response by the Imperial forces.

Regarding the influence of the Ecclesiarchy:

WD #212 wrote:The difference between Codex Sisters of Battle and other Codices is that the forces detailed in the book are found on every Imperial planet, and can be formed from the planet's local population. These forces constantly battle against evil cults without the help of other armies of the Imperium, and even if a planet is invaded by a hostile alien race, it will be the Ecclesiarchy who defends the worlds before the Imperial Guard or the Space Marines arrive. I really like all the dark history and organisation of the Imperium, and I find the image of ragged militia bands led into battle by fanatical Preachers very appealing. [...]

There are usually only two reasons why the forces of the Ecclesiarchy would fight alone against an enemy. The first of these is as the primary line of defence before other troops arrive. Preachers, Confessors and Missionaries are often the first to discover hidden cults, confront alien invaders and generally get into trouble. The other situation is during a War of Faith, when certain followers of the Emperor misinterpret His word as taught by the Ministorum, thus becoming heretics. Some Wars of Faith sweep through entire systems and signify massive upheaval, others are a much more local affair. In these circumstances, the Ecclesiarchy is unlikely to get aid from the Imperial Guard and Space Marines and must use its own forces alone to achieve its aims.

Accompanying commentary: Good description of the clergy's role for the Imperial citizenry.
This WD issue is a cool one, by the way; I was able to get it complete with its cardboard chapel kit. White Dwarf back then was awesome. And it had more pages, too.

2E Codex SoB wrote:The spiritual guidance of the Ecclesiarchy permeates almost every aspect of society in the Imperium. Preachers lead the masses in their veneration of the Emperor, Confessors rouse the populace to cast out the sinful and heretical, while Missionaries bring the light of the Emperor to every newly discovered world, instilling the same fervent loyalty and faith that they themselves possess. [...]

They may be found almost everywhere, berating those they believe to be faithless, imploring the citizens of the Imperium to denounce heretics and sinners. But it is not just amongst the seething masses that they operate. Confessors act as advisors to Imperial Guard colonels, planetary governors and sometimes, with special Ecclesiarchal dispensation, they even lead Wars of Faith against the sworn foes of the Emperor's light. [...]

Some prefer fiery speeches and rabble-rousing to incite the population into religious fanaticism, while others are more subtle, manipulating the leaders of guilds and other organisations to form coalitions against the enemy. They whisper into the ears of commanders, guiding them from behind the scenes, swaying their decisions down paths approved by the Ministorum. [...]

Preachers are sometimes known as Defenders of the Faith, as they and their militias often form the first line of defence against insidious Chaos and Genestealer cults or other heretical sects. When a planet is subjected to an alien invasion, it is the Preachers who mobilise the population into defending their homes from the godless heathens who attack them. They frequently aid the Judges and their Adeptus Arbites in local purges, and their familiarity with the citizenry makes them useful for intelligence gathering by higher officials and the Inquisition. [...]

The Ecclesiarchy, especially its Confessors, is particularly determined in its duty to hunt down these menaces to humanity. Huge witch hunts can embroil communities, even whole planets, casting a pall of suspicion and fear across the population. The citizens of the Imperium are exhorted to spy on their neighbors, confess their own sins and root out the enemy within. [...]

With the backing of the Adeptus Terra, the Ecclesiarchy continued to increase its hold over Imperial citizens and soldiers at a phenomenal rate. Those who refused to join the Ministorum were declared unbelievers and banished from their communities or even executed as heretics. [...] By the end of the 33rd millennium, with the exception of the planets controlled by the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Space Marines, every Imperial world had its cathedral dedicated to the Emperor. Thousands of shrines dotted every planet, and the tithes and collections of billions of followers flowed into the Ecclesiachy's coffers. The power of the Ecclesiarchy spread into every facet of Imperial life. From humble miners and clerks through Imperial Guard and Navy officers to Planetary Governors and the High Lords of Terra themselves, everybody was an adherend to the Imperial Creed, in theory at least.

Accompanying commentary: Sounds pretty influential to me; I really don't see why the Ministorum should be in any way unsatisfied with its hold over the average Imperial populace.

Now, it needs to be pointed out again that 40k does not know canon, so in essence none of the opinions voiced in this thread can be "wrong" and we are all free to believe what we want. I maintain, however, that the direction the studio material is pointing at is rather clear.

"can be likened to medieval feudal lords" != "are feudal lords"

Riplikash is correct to point out that a feudal system entails recipricol rights and responsibilities. He is incorrect to surmise that reciprocity is a characteristic of top-down authority in the Imperium. The High Lords owe exactly nothing to the planetary governors or the population and the governors and populations have exactly no legal rights as against the High Lords. This is easy to understand if one accepts that Adeptus Terra is based on an absolute power claim (the "total" of totalitarian) as against humanity -- made by the "Master of Mankind" (how much clearer could it be?) in a way that, according to years of fluff, no individual can escape in their daily lives.