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I hated SW before it got popular. Before the internet figured out longfangs.

Whole army with counter-attack. JotWW snipin' my dudes. Plus they have decent shooting. Plus I was playing Oldcrons. They just rolled through my army like it was a wet paper bag.

Now I throw 50 gauss shots from a couple ghost arks at some SW termies and laugh for days.

They are guily by association thanks to the segment of mathhammer/powergamers that have hijacked Space Wolves...

CT GAMER wrote:They are guily by association thanks to the segment of mathhammer/powergamers that have hijacked Space Wolves...

Are you sure we should be blaming players' ability to do basic maths, rather than Phil Kelly's inability?

English Assassin wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:They are guily by association thanks to the segment of mathhammer/powergamers that have hijacked Space Wolves...

Are you sure we should be blaming players' ability to do basic maths, rather than Phil Kelly's inability?

Yes we should be blaming the WAAC's mathhammer crowd as they ruin EVERY book irregardless of the author!

Ever since Codex: Orks hit in Jan '08 it's gone like;
- Biker Nobz were tops. Wound allocation shinanigans became a really dirty tactic starting with this book.

- Vanilla Marines hit next, and 'Winsander' leading Sternguard for re-rolls on hellfire rounds or else Vulkan for the melta-hammer buffs were the power army of choice. Hammernators suddenly started appearing in massive numbers and were considered 'broken' by many dedicated assault units who now suddenly just bounced off thanks to the 3++ save.

-Tyranids were written off as 'under powered crap' within about 3 days IIRC as there was very little in the way of cheap, spamable abuses availible in the codex.

- Imperial Guard. Thus were the words "leaf blower" forever etched into the image of the army. Vendettas were found to be obscenely powerfull for their cost, cheap infantry, new orders, spamable Veterans who could take 'oodles of meltaguns... IG are still a top army!

- Space Wolves. Grey Hunters & Long Fangs were undercosted due to other units being more costly, not as skilled as ever other MEQ. Jaws sniping, (not like we haven't ever seen sniper abilities before, but apparently this one caused massive butt-hurt), more HQ's, plus the continuation of the undercosting of the Razorback.
So dawned the Space Marine 'MSU mech-spam' and it was instantly hated by opponents everywhere!

- Blood Angels. Now Assault Squads could get meltaguns & discounted razorbacks! Now marines could get army-wide FnP! Now marines had a SC who was an infantry version of a MC!!! Now a dreadnought could swim through 30+ orks in a single round of combat! The cries of "CHEESE!!!" were instant...
But overall, it again became a min/maxer's dream as you could put 4-6 squads of 5 guys + meltagun insdie of solid transport options and then still spam one or two of the other options as well.

- Dark Eldar. The number crunchers took very little time to come up with 'Venomspam' using small squads of 'Blasterborn' and Warriors with a single blaster.

- Grey Knights. A perfect example of just how a really OTT codex is gangraped by the number crunchers and turned into a travesty that few people willingly want to play against... Draigowing, Purifyer spam & especially the gimmicks of Hechman spam are still causing hate among players who are tired of seeing 6-9+ vehicles filled with min/maxed units of dooooooom!

- Necrons. Well, so far the mathhammer crowd is now telling us that Necrons in 6th means "spam Nightscythes = win due to lack of AA defenses!!!"
Before that, the numbers added upto the gimmicky Imhotek nightfighting list, or else spaming things like wound-allocated Wraith squads, or min/maxed Troops to take a 'Tremorcron' list of Crypteks using tremorstaves combo'd with the C'tan 'writhing worldscape' power to keep your enemies at a constant crawl.



Mathhammer has always found a way to ruin the game, and always will. Why? Because GW don't give a flying rat's fart about making this into a 'tournament game' system! Power gamer's will always exist, (sadly), and no matter how 'balanced' a codex we think GW can write, there'll always be a list or three that the number crunchers put together and use to steamroll opponent's.
SW's aren't 'broken' if you don't take 3x 6 'Missilefang' units + 4-6 GH's in las/plasbacks. SW's are actually really fun if you play a list that includes the likes of Bloodclaws led by Wolfpriests, a Lonewolf and say a vindicator + land speeders... But of corse, the internet tells us that's a crap list, so no one ever takes it to a 'serious' game.

40k so far through 5th edition and the very start of 6th has had only 1 book that's been lamented as outright OTT/borderline broken, and it's not SW's. Players, especially WAAC's gits who mathhammer out every list to be as efficient as possible and then play nothing EXCEPT THAT LIST even on friendly/open/non-tournament gaming nights are the problem!

Wait, you're complaining that people actually like to find out the odds for a game they're playing?

While I agree social gaming can be ruined by power gaming, there's nothing wrong with mathhammer IMO. It's simply a fact of learning the game you're playing. It's like complaining that a poker player knows the odds.

Plus, you don't need to mathhammer to see the value of GH over BC or the awesomeness of Long Fangs (you'd have to be down right silly to not see "wait a second, for X points I can get this compared to Y points for getting that").

Also, I'm an Engineer, I couldn't avoid mathhammering even if I tried (and frankly the "math" is child's play, most people don't even bother going into the binomial distribution to figure out probabilities and stick to calculating averages which takes all of 2 seconds).

You also have the fact 40k is pretty heavily a mathhammer game. One thing I prefer about Fantasy is that you can throw together a "fluffy" list and still compete with a "power gamer" list because the emphasis is on the game rather than the army selection.

Space Wolves are a bunch of douchebags in power armor. They think they're better than everyone else, their captains are rude to everyone (including other Primarchs), they bluster and fight everyone, can do things other Marines can't (they can nail the womenz) and they have fleas. If the Tyranids came and suddenly ate all the Space Wolves, I feel like it would be a blessing to see them disappear for good. They're like the Orks of Space Marines. Goofy, smelly and lust for beating up their fellows. Only Orks do it well and SWs are just sad, pathetic, long-haired freaks.

timetowaste85 wrote:Space Wolves are a bunch of douchebags in power armor. They think they're better than everyone else, their captains are rude to everyone (including other Primarchs), they bluster and fight everyone, can do things other Marines can't (they can nail the womenz) and they have fleas. If the Tyranids came and suddenly ate all the Space Wolves, I feel like it would be a blessing to see them disappear for good. They're like the Orks of Space Marines. Goofy, smelly and lust for beating up their fellows. Only Orks do it well and SWs are just sad, pathetic, long-haired freaks.

I think you described the people who play them rather than Space Wolves themselves

I'm a Space Wolves player and proud of it. The reason why most lists spam Grey Hunters and Long Fangs is simply because they're the best infantry in the Codex.

Grey Hunters - 4s across the board for stats, 15 points a pop.
Blood Claws - Inferior stats, must charge the closest until if they're within 6", 15 points a pop.

If Blood Claws cost say 12 points each, then maybe they'd be worth taking. However, since they cost the same amount of points as Grey Hunters, why take a unit with poorer stats for the same cost? SW bikers and jump infantry are useless because they're essentially Blood Claws with bikes and jetpacks. Same stats, same drawbacks.

In the Heavy Support slot there's Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Land Raiders and Long Fangs. For 140 points a pack of six Missile Fangs gives much more firepower and durability compared to the other tanks. Under the new 6E rules, some SW players might start running Termies in a Land Raider but it's unknown how popular or effective that build will be.

The Internet has nothing to do with Space Wolves spam lists. The Codex is written and costed so that there are some units that are clearly superior than others.

English Assassin wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:They are guily by association thanks to the segment of mathhammer/powergamers that have hijacked Space Wolves...

Are you sure we should be blaming players' ability to do basic maths, rather than Phil Kelly's inability?

You and I are from two different worlds when it comes to our approach to this game. It would be better if we just accept that, and move along...

Asherian Command wrote:

Buttons wrote:I hate them because they are OTT and their leaders are all incompetent donkey-caves who seem to oppose authority simply because they can. Space vikings is fine, space vikings that like wolves are fine, space vikings that like wolves, base all of their ranks and equipment off of wolves or parts of wolves and ride giant wolves is just too damn much for me. At least Orks are funny, space wolves are just sad.

Ragnar Blackmane is a donkey Cave?
Err? WHAT?
They are hells not incompetent compared to the ultras.
And before the current edition they were extremely cool.

The Ultramarines are "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters", dating all the way back to 1993's Codex Ultramarines by Rick Priestley (you might remember him from the covers and "written by" credits of all the original editions for the game).

Why does every goober immediately reference the Ultramarines every time they want to say something derogatory about a Space Marine chapter. It's so idiotic, lol. It must be some subconscious hatred of success and a desire to tear down others who are seen has having achieved greatness. I mean, you can take issue with him calling the Space Wolves incompetent, but saying they are "not imcompetent compared to the Ultras" is just plain stupid since the Ultramarines have been the most successful and accomplished of all the Chapters post-Heresy, according to the canon, and making that comparison only dilutes any argument you might make by its sheer lunacy. Why not use the poor bastard Lamenters? Or some other Chapter that's struggled, lol.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Buttons wrote:I hate them because they are OTT and their leaders are all incompetent donkey-caves who seem to oppose authority simply because they can. Space vikings is fine, space vikings that like wolves are fine, space vikings that like wolves, base all of their ranks and equipment off of wolves or parts of wolves and ride giant wolves is just too damn much for me. At least Orks are funny, space wolves are just sad.

Ragnar Blackmane is a donkey Cave?
Err? WHAT?
They are hells not incompetent compared to the ultras.
And before the current edition they were extremely cool.

The Ultramarines are "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters", dating all the way back to 1993's Codex Ultramarines by Rick Priestley (you might remember him from the covers and "written by" credits of all the original editions for the game).

Why does every goober immediately reference the Ultramarines every time they want to say something derogatory about a Space Marine chapter. It's so idiotic, lol. It must be some subconscious hatred of success and a desire to tear down others who are seen has having achieved greatness. I mean, you can take issue with him calling the Space Wolves incompetent, but saying they are "not imcompetent compared to the Ultras" is just plain stupid since the Ultramarines have been the most successful and accomplished of all the Chapters post-Heresy, according to the canon, and making that comparison only dilutes any argument you might make by its sheer lunacy. Why not use the poor bastard Lamenters? Or some other Chapter that's struggled, lol.

...Because only in the Ultrasmurfs does the guy who kills a Tyranid Norn Queen get kicked out of the Chapter and sent on a Death Oath for the hienous crime of only saving half the fething Imperium!

StoneRaizer wrote:The Internet has nothing to do with Space Wolves spam lists. The Codex is written and costed so that there are some units that are clearly superior than others.

This.

I began a Space Wolves army having never read any message boards about them, etc. I just picked two armies that I liked, and dove in. (Necrons being the other, and both were during 5th Ed.)

My SW list at 2k uses 4x min/max Grey Hunters units, 3x ML Long Fang units and Razorspam. (and Bjorn & Dreads, but otherwise the list is pretty cookie-cutter). I came to that list independently, as I put it together after reading the codex, before I had ever joined Dakka or read about how powerful that army is.

The reason this happened, is because I do not really care about the "story". I'm playing a game. I liked the idea of space vikings, but that's as far as the fluff would take me.

And I'm sure I'm not alone. So I will reiterate: the Internet has nothing to do with Spaec Wolves spam lists.

Experiment 626 wrote:Ever since Codex: Orks hit in Jan '08 it's gone like;
- Biker Nobz were tops. Wound allocation shinanigans became a really dirty tactic starting with this book.

- Vanilla Marines hit next, and 'Winsander' leading Sternguard for re-rolls on hellfire rounds or else Vulkan for the melta-hammer buffs were the power army of choice. Hammernators suddenly started appearing in massive numbers and were considered 'broken' by many dedicated assault units who now suddenly just bounced off thanks to the 3++ save.

-Tyranids were written off as 'under powered crap' within about 3 days IIRC as there was very little in the way of cheap, spamable abuses availible in the codex.

- Imperial Guard. Thus were the words "leaf blower" forever etched into the image of the army. Vendettas were found to be obscenely powerfull for their cost, cheap infantry, new orders, spamable Veterans who could take 'oodles of meltaguns... IG are still a top army!

- Space Wolves. Grey Hunters & Long Fangs were undercosted due to other units being more costly, not as skilled as ever other MEQ. Jaws sniping, (not like we haven't ever seen sniper abilities before, but apparently this one caused massive butt-hurt), more HQ's, plus the continuation of the undercosting of the Razorback.
So dawned the Space Marine 'MSU mech-spam' and it was instantly hated by opponents everywhere!

- Blood Angels. Now Assault Squads could get meltaguns & discounted razorbacks! Now marines could get army-wide FnP! Now marines had a SC who was an infantry version of a MC!!! Now a dreadnought could swim through 30+ orks in a single round of combat! The cries of "CHEESE!!!" were instant...
But overall, it again became a min/maxer's dream as you could put 4-6 squads of 5 guys + meltagun insdie of solid transport options and then still spam one or two of the other options as well.

- Dark Eldar. The number crunchers took very little time to come up with 'Venomspam' using small squads of 'Blasterborn' and Warriors with a single blaster.

- Grey Knights. A perfect example of just how a really OTT codex is gangraped by the number crunchers and turned into a travesty that few people willingly want to play against... Draigowing, Purifyer spam & especially the gimmicks of Hechman spam are still causing hate among players who are tired of seeing 6-9+ vehicles filled with min/maxed units of dooooooom!

- Necrons. Well, so far the mathhammer crowd is now telling us that Necrons in 6th means "spam Nightscythes = win due to lack of AA defenses!!!"
Before that, the numbers added upto the gimmicky Imhotek nightfighting list, or else spaming things like wound-allocated Wraith squads, or min/maxed Troops to take a 'Tremorcron' list of Crypteks using tremorstaves combo'd with the C'tan 'writhing worldscape' power to keep your enemies at a constant crawl.

Oooh! Oooh ooh oooh! Me next! Me next! Be sure to mention the "Uriah-bomb!"

Haterz gonna hate.

This is a great thread...there is quite a bit of comedy in here.

Why People hate wolves

1) Their fluff doesn't fit into the Space Marine Altar Boys way of doing things. They drink, they hook up with chicks, they party, they are the only Space Marines to have facial hair, they punk other space marine chapters, Russ almost beat the emperor in battle. They are basically space D*cks.

2) They use the word "wolf" too much...Canis Wolfborn? Wolf Wolfborn? ok...lol

3) Longfangs

4) Jotww

5) 3 and 4+ Psychic Nulls on their RP/Njal. People also hate LL because it's unlimited range.

6) Mark of the Wolfen for 15 is waaay undercosted....wolf banner for 10 is insanely good...2 meltas in a squad of GH's for 5 points is crazy. Basically they have a ton of kit out gear for hunters that is too cheap.


It's a combination of using the word "wolf" too much, their attitude in the fluff and the fact they have some very overpowered/undercosted powers and units.

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:they are the only Space Marines to have facial hair

Objection!