Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

hobojebus wrote:And lets not forget in the 36th milenium it was the space wolves that ended the age of apostasy by leading the assault on the palace to end the mad reign of Vandire after the silly sod invaded fenris, terra knows full well the hell they'd bring down onthemselves if they anger the wolves.

That would be the Imperial Fists, Black Templars and Fire Hawks who overthrew Vandire. You're thinking of the Cardinal Bucharis, who unsuccessfully besieged Fenris (though it wasn't in fact the Space Wolves who finally defeated him).

Edit: As for the Space Wolves, well I'm certainly not fond of their special snowflake rune magic, nor of their Wolflord Lupus McWolfywolf names, nor for that matter, of the points costs of Grey Hunters and Long Fangs. Toned-down a bit and written with a bit more imagination (dipping a bit further into Norse myth than Loki and Thor, for instance) they'd be quite acceptable, however.

For me its the costs. Too much that is +1 to the UM at more or less the same cost. I like the new rules other than that (though I agree with the annoyance at silly names).

IDK i like the Space wolf fluff and style but i will admit they don't seem to fir the Imperial of man very well as space marines....

I need to find a nice and fluffy army to play.... i guess Ultramarines it is!

English Assassin wrote:

hobojebus wrote:And lets not forget in the 36th milenium it was the space wolves that ended the age of apostasy by leading the assault on the palace to end the mad reign of Vandire after the silly sod invaded fenris, terra knows full well the hell they'd bring down onthemselves if they anger the wolves.

That would be the Imperial Fists, Black Templars and Fire Hawks who overthrew Vandire. You're thinking of the Cardinal Bucharis, who unsuccessfully besieged Fenris (though it wasn't in fact the Space Wolves who finally defeated him).

+1 for pointing out that error - was about to comment on this myself.

Though the Soul Drinkers Chapter participated in the siege as well.

And technically, it was the then-Brides of the Emperor who overthrew their master. The Marines did manage to breach the walls of the palace, but they were still stuck inside for months. It's hard to say who would have held out longer had Dominica not made Vandire a few inches shorter.

Platuan4th wrote:Someone here needs to read the Chaos codex, particularly that part where the Red Corsairs slaughter an entire Strike Cruiser full of Space Wolves. It got so bad, near the end Space Wolves were turning on their brothers and pledging themselves to Huron so they wouldn't be killed.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_of_Fenris#.T-2pd_VYmnk

Thanks for pointing this out, that's at least something. Not an actual mission they would have failed, but something. I'll keep it in mind for the future!

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Looks like someone's seeking an argument that no one wants to respond to.

Honestly, I'd've been just fine if no one had responded. ^_^

I just like technical accuracy sometimes, and remembering the original subject or even context of a thread or statement is not one of my strong suits.

SW are pretty awesome. That's the problem. Both on the tabletop and in the fluff.

OTOH, I don't see a lot of people rallying around the Lamenters.

Buttons wrote:I hate them because they are OTT and their leaders are all incompetent donkey-caves who seem to oppose authority simply because they can. Space vikings is fine, space vikings that like wolves are fine, space vikings that like wolves, base all of their ranks and equipment off of wolves or parts of wolves and ride giant wolves is just too damn much for me. At least Orks are funny, space wolves are just sad.

Ragnar Blackmane is a donkey Cave?
Err? WHAT?
They are hells not incompetent compared to the ultras.
And before the current edition they were extremely cool.

I'm surprised it hasn't really been touched on yet, but the GW financial standpoint seems to be another reason to hate. Make a marine chapter that is superior to the others, coincidentally having alot of unique (and more expensive that the vanilla counter-part) models so people buy them to have the army.....

Actually the new fluff does say some do turn into wolves. Check test of morkai fluff in the newest codex. Also check out any and all of bran redmaws company fluff - yeah most of it is in the imperial armor 11 - and the fluff specifically says he is not the first of the leaders to be able to change. It also only fluff in regards to brans transformation because the book introduces his model. I could go on... Just know he is not the only one that turns and that fact has been longer than 6 months.

Buttons wrote:I hate them because they are OTT and their leaders are all incompetent donkey-caves who seem to oppose authority simply because they can. Space vikings is fine, space vikings that like wolves are fine, space vikings that like wolves, base all of their ranks and equipment off of wolves or parts of wolves and ride giant wolves is just too damn much for me. At least Orks are funny, space wolves are just sad.

Ha ha ha ha. That is fabulous.

They're a little hokey, but this is 40k, and GD everything is OTT. Particularly Space Marines.

That said, I agree. lol.

I haven't played against them in a while. But yeah, not a fan so much anymore.

I've liked the background since they started the viking thing. The Rogue Trader SW were closer to standard SM and watching them evolve was cool.

IDK, by third edition they lost they're charm for me. I mean, for some reason their devastators could split fire when no one else could, just because they were veterans? Um. Okay.

Counter charge and all that wasn't that annoying, I remember Jervis Johnson saying in a WD that they had just made the Blood Angels the berserk CC guys, so they pictured the SW as controlled rage.

But they just seem to have things no one else can. Although BA are filling that role now too.

As far as the renegade aspect, I actually like that. The mutations of course are a bad idea. But the SW legion has a precedent from the beginning of not following the Codex and not being in line with other chapters. I DO think that the Inquisistion would keep an eye on them, but they have always stayed loyal.

IDK, not my favorite chapter and they seem to get more cartoony every year. I picture SMs as knightly/monk warrior types. I'd also rather like to see more focus on other chapters like Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Salamanders, etc. now.

My name is Ragnar Wolfson of the Space Wolves Wolf Squad which consists of many Wolf Marines. My personal guard, the Wolf Guard, are my wolf champions. Together with the Wolf Squad we guard the wolf planet Wolf-x153 to train more Space Wolves.

We also drink beer and mate frome time to time with regular women even though it's wrong.

Nah, you're right. Space Wolves are so awesome. Especially when everything is called wolf.

...

Hate? I actually thought there were more people that like space wolves than hate them. Could just be me though.

I like them, if you do to, cool.
If you don't like them, good for you.

OK I just have to comment in this thread due to all the Space Wolf hate going on, noticed a couple in favor an that was good to see.

You want a warrior monk? Play a frikin goodie to shoes thumb up his butt Ultra Marine. Roboute Guilliman felt all high an mighty an basically weasled his way in an got most chapters to stick to the Codex Astartes. Lot of frikin good it has done, how many people play Vanilla marines? Thought so its all Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, an thanks to their soon to be new codex Dark Angels. All of the chapters I just mentioned are different than your holier than thou Ultra Marines. Heck what good has it done Guiliman? He just sits around with his throat slit while Leman Russ is frakin shiz up in the Eye of Terror. Leman Russ said screw all that BS and kept things the way he wanted.

As for the wolf/viking fluff why the hell not? There is much much worse fluff out there. Maybe the entire Necron codex for starters. Good god a bunch of terminator (arnie style not 40k) wannabees overthrew the Star Gods which for a long time was some of the most popular fluff. An mark my words Necrons are going to dominate the tourney scene from now on. How about the Grey Knights, which I play. Draigo spends his free time slaughtering greater demons in the warp while bending the chaos gods over an banging them up the keester. An Mephiston don't get me started on Twilight 40k, the guy is supposedly one step below a glittery teenager chasing vampire. Now tell me how bad the fluff is for some kick ass wolf loving space marines.

Oh ya got a problem with Thunderwolves? Giant cyberneticaly enhanced wolves, why in the hell wouldn't you ride them. Imperial Guard ride on horses so I guess they suck to, but I guess its ok because tens of thousands of years ago on Terra cowboys faced off against indians on horseback. Imperial Guard transport ships must frikin stink.

Ya wanna talk about how OP their rules are? How about no heavy weapons for Grey Hunters? Yea thats right Tac squads can move an shoot their heavy weapons now, granted they hit on a 6 but thats a lascannon or a plasma cannon that Hunters don't get. An tell me how OP the Long Fangs are again, and while yer at it tell me where I can get some of the gas that Blood Angels put in the tanks of their vehicles to make them as an orc would say, "GO FASTA!". Maybe its because they are painted red i dunno. Or maybe why Blood Angels just get to roll to see if they get special powers for all of their units, or can take frikin Librarian Dreadnoughts.

As for being a gunline, show me which marine army that isn't capable of fielding a decent gunline I dare ya. Maybe Black Templars because their codex is almost as old as the Tau codex. Grey Knights which had some of the best CC weapons (at least until 6th showed up) was still a shooty army, as any tourney player will tell you. Take 10 purifiers give 4 of them psycannons and repeat x4.

An last but not least... Jaws of the World Wolf the biggest MC killer of them all. Works well against one army, unless they have one of those big damn 6 wound beasties that make you roll 3d6 to try an cast psychic powers. As a grey knight player I hated playing against Nids.

I agree horses suck as well as wolves. I can't think of anywhere I could load up some skulls on them and unlike bikes they don't have wheels. You also can't make the vroom vroom noise as you push them up field.

Valace2, you are my hero. That was well said and darn funny. Good job!

n0t_u wrote:I agree horses suck as well as wolves. I can't think of anywhere I could load up some skulls on them and unlike bikes they don't have wheels. You also can't make the vroom vroom noise as you push them up field.

Yea no vroom vroom, but after a few beers it's fun to start howling

Kal-El wrote:Valace2, you are my hero. That was well said and darn funny. Good job!

I don't think it was well said. He swore and lashed out, rather than simply presenting his argument. Instead of saying why space wolves would fit in, you say that other armies have worse fluff. That still doesn't make Space wolf fluff better in quality.

I kind of do have a problem with thunder wolves. I'm sure there are plenty beasts that could bear a fully armored space marine, but if they want to get places, most space marines use vehicles. The Imperial Guard have a virtually infinite different ways the fight. Some planets only have horses and sticks, so that's how they fight. I just don't see enough advantages of a live mount over a vehicle to make them worth it when there is nothing stopping them from using those Vehicles.

I dislike them because they are super passive. Most take as many Long Fangs as they can (it's boring yes, but is/was undoubtedly effective). And the fact that GH have bp/ccw AND bolters just makes them so much more versatile. Counter-Attack also as stated makes it less important for SW to get the charge. Even in small 5-man units its just annoying.

JoTWW I'm actually okay with. It's because I play BA and the initiative test is not a big problem.

It's the ones like Living Lightening and Murderous Hurricane that are annoying. LL is basically an unlimited range autocannon. Which is mothafething awesome. And Hurricane is just aggravating.

I'm a pure Thousand Sons player, it's mandatory for me to hate them

In all honesty if Long Fangs were 0-1 and Jaws of the World Wolf had never been invented then they wouldn't get any hate at all probably.

I do agree that a lot of people who play Wolves don't think outside the box when it comes to building armies but in the age of social media that we are in currently thats bound to happen in every army. A successful build gets onto the net and suddenly its the new "Netlist" for that army and everyone goes out and copies it.

This is true of every army in the game but with Wolves it takes on a special amount of hatred because their army isn't hard to win with.

As far as fluff is concerned if it hadn't been for the Grey Knights helping them with the First War on Armageddon then all the Wolves that went there would have died horribly fighting against Angron and his Bloodthirsters. That's not counting the obscene amounts of Berzerkers and Daemons that were there for the battle as well.

Also you will notice that they didn't get 1st place in the most hated because no one and I mean no one can justify the fluff in that pile of crap codex that got 1st.

I can see the next version of the normal Space Marine codex getting the Long Fang's ability to aim at different targets on their devs though. It'd make sense for chapters like the Imperial Fists which would rather fortify a position than just rush everything.

valace2 wrote:

n0t_u wrote:I agree horses suck as well as wolves. I can't think of anywhere I could load up some skulls on them and unlike bikes they don't have wheels. You also can't make the vroom vroom noise as you push them up field.

Yea no vroom vroom, but after a few beers it's fun to start howling

I suppose the horses then only become fun if one brings a coconut.

Andy Chambers is really at fault for making them Mary Sue Space Marines +1. Before that, they were simply another Chapter of Marines who had a viking theme with a bit of a werewolf flavor added on top. After him, somehow they now had better stats than anyone, their experienced veterans were better than anyone else's experienced veterans, they were mutants whose mutation was only a positive thing, and they could field 20-man terminator squads where each member was armed with assault cannons and cyclone missile launchers.

That made them annoying from a gameplay perspective, but fluff-wise they were still okay. They were more rowdy, anti-establishment marines who cared more about individuals than the Imperium as a whole. That appeals to teenagers in their rebellious phase, making them popular, and really, it's hard to dislike them purely for that.

The Horus Heresy novels, however, made them truly despicable. Everyone already knows how the Thousand Sons novel made them out to be hypocrites and thugs, but that can be expected from a Thousand Sons novel. But then Battle of the Fang and Prospero Burns only underscored these character traits. In BotF, they are shown to be impulsive, thoughtless barbarians who lord over and work their "mortal" chattel to death. In PB, they are shown to be paranoid, superstitious primitives who thumb their nose at the Imperial Truth, and live in utter darkness, growling at each other and playing with bones, and are not above a cover-up to make themselves look good. Then, of course, there is the Emperor's Gift, which shows them more than willing to start a civil war and endanger/end billions of lives on principle.

Really, in the grand scheme of things, they are a liability. In an Imperium of untold trillions, whatever positive impact a few thousand Marines can make is largely insignificant, especially when they seem to fight the Imperium's forces as often as the enemy.

Omegus wrote:Andy Chambers is really at fault for making them Mary Sue Space Marines +1. Before that, they were simply another Chapter of Marines who had a viking theme with a bit of a werewolf flavor added on top. After him, somehow they now had better stats than anyone, their experienced veterans were better than anyone else's experienced veterans, they were mutants whose mutation was only a positive thing, and they could field 20-man terminator squads where each member was armed with assault cannons and cyclone missile launchers.

That made them annoying from a gameplay perspective, but fluff-wise they were still okay. They were more rowdy, anti-establishment marines who cared more about individuals than the Imperium as a whole. That appeals to teenagers in their rebellious phase, making them popular, and really, it's hard to dislike them purely for that.

The Horus Heresy novels, however, made them truly despicable. Everyone already knows how the Thousand Sons novel made them out to be hypocrites and thugs, but that can be expected from a Thousand Sons novel. But then Battle of the Fang and Prospero Burns only underscored these character traits. In BotF, they are shown to be impulsive, thoughtless barbarians who lord over and work their "mortal" chattel to death. In PB, they are shown to be paranoid, superstitious primitives who thumb their nose at the Imperial Truth, and live in utter darkness, growling at each other and playing with bones, and are not above a cover-up to make themselves look good. Then, of course, there is the Emperor's Gift, which shows them more than willing to start a civil war and endanger/end billions of lives on principle.

Really, in the grand scheme of things, they are a liability. In an Imperium of untold trillions, whatever positive impact a few thousand Marines can make is largely insignificant, especially when they seem to fight the Imperium's forces as often as the enemy.

See I have read the Horus Heresy books through Flight of the Eisenstein, but I haven't read much else. I prefer to base my fluff around material found in the codex.

As for being anti authority you can hardly blame them. When they were sent to sack Prospero they were doing so on orders from the Emperor of Mankind an the Warmaster Horus. They were following orders so you can't blame them for that mistake.

Based on that history how could you not see them distrusting the imperial hierarchy. Guilliman was part of that heirarchy after the Heresy so why should Russ have trusted them. Russ served Horus an the Emperor, Horus' betrayal taught the Wolves to trust no one but the Emperor an the wolf beside them.

They have more individuality, courage, an honour than almost all of the other chapters. Logan Grimnar protected the warriors who fought valiently beside his brothers on Armagedon. Any other chapter would have merely said, "they are only Imperial Troops they can be replaced". I would rank them with Grey Knights in their hatred of the forces of chaos.

It's your prerogative to believe whatever made-up version of events you wish, there's no canon in 40K.

Just don't get butthurt when written material contradicts you.

njpc wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:They are supposed to be relatively melee orientated and yet are the best SM shooty army.

Everything they have is 'just better' than vanilla dex.

Their whole clan/legion structure is a bit insane and they seem to get away with things any other chapter would be censured for doing.

This, and 100x this.
I have yet to play a SW player who did not bring his obligatory 3 units of Long Fangs. Whether it be pick up games, tournments, or league games, its always the same list, no real variety. It is incredibly boring to play against. I enjoy tactical hard pressed games win or lose. But as an Ork player, its just annoying to hear SW players complain about having 1 Battlewagon, 1 mek with a KFF, and 1 unit of Lootas. I have yet to play a SW player in 5th who did anything other then sit there shoot, not move, and try to use 2 units in Rhino's or Pods. The LGS has 4-5 SW players who all have 3 units with MIssiles, really? There are other options in that list, use them.

Your army has counter attack... use it! Take some big blobs of grey hunters or blood claws with HQ's leading them and actually scrap it out against Orks, you will likely win combat, often.

Sounds like a really boring LGS. I've been collecting SW for years and have never fielded more than 1 unit of Long Fangs in typical sized games, it's too unfluffy.

I'm a long time lover of Space Wolves. They were the first 40k army I ever collected some 15 or 16 years ago, and the 2nd army I collected in wargaming (after Lizardmen).

As far as the current Space Wolves are concerned. I don't like the concept of TWC, it is just over the top absurd. Space Marines weigh a friggin ton, for a wolf to carry one it'd need to be ginormous and it seems a bit far fetched to think Space Marines would go wandering around the forest trying to tame Wolves in their spare time. I don't hate the idea of wolf packs or even thunderwolves, but the cavalry is a bit silly. Space Wolves are on the feral side for Space Marines, but to go riding wolves into battle sounds like something a Kroot or a Snakebite Ork would do, not a Space Wolf. That said I do like the models and have been waiting for years for GW to bring out decent wolf models, so I snapped up the TWC models even though I think they're absurd.

The current Long Fangs are a bit over the top, I agree. I kind of like them, but I think they should have restrictions on the number you can take beyond them being a Heavy Support choice. They should be powerful, but they should also be rare. I'm not sure how you would restrict them, maybe that you can only take 1 Long Fang unit per FOC or something. I like that they get weapons cheaper than others, because without anything to absorb casualties they are very much a glass cannon unit, but it needs to be balanced by heavily limiting the number of them you can take.

The "Runic" thing has gone a bit crazy as well. It's gone from a superstitious thing the native fenrisians believed in to something a bit too big IMO.

As far as the rebellious nature of the Space Wolves. I like it. I think it adds character, it sets them aside instead of just being yet another SM chapter. I imagine Space Wolves as being the sort that an Imperial foot trooper would love to see dropping in to help them, but an Imperial commander might get nervous. I don't think the Space Wolves anti-authority is ever portrayed as being silly and they don't just defy the Imperium for no reason, but rather it shows them as a slightly more independent and self driven chapter. The only real problem with it is that it's mentioned a lot. Even if you go back to 2nd edition there's references to the Space Wolves openly defying the Imperium, but in the current Codex it's mentioned so many times it makes you think they send a daily f-you letter to all other Imperial institutions.

I think the current rules have made Space Wolves too shooty. Space Wolves SHOULD be like a Space Marine army that is slightly less effective at shooting but makes up for it by being able to do more damage in close combat and they've kind of lost that feel to them. It doesn't help that Blood Claws really aren't worth it (I still don't know why you'd bother taking a Blood Claw when a Grey Hunter is the same points, only slightly worse on the charge but better at everything else).

Lastly, too many people collect Space Wolves. I see way too many Space Wolf armies these days. I don't know if SW have always been overly popular, but back when I started collecting them in 2nd edition they were quite exotic in my local gaming shops/clubs.

Of course that's my opinion as someone who is a long term lover of the Space Pups and I'm just picking on the bits I don't really like in their current incarnation.

The Beards. ZZ Top in power armor is cheezy.

Oh, this thread again.

I'll just say that the fluff is what annoys me the most. It can be good, but alot of the time its just too much... of everything

I've just never liked the "Rawr, space werewolf vikings"motif they have. Not since 2nd edition. But I preferred my Marines as mindscrubbed and repurposed psychotic killing machines than the holy knights they have become.

If I want to read about epic viking sagas, I have the (admittedly only translations as I can't read old norse ) Snorri Sturlisson eddas to fall back on. They're better written than GW's fluff, too.