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I could not help but notice just how highly the SW ranked on the "which faction do you hate the most" Thread.

Is it because you view them as OP?

Is it because they dont fit well in the 40k Universe and should go the way of the squat?

Or is it maybe some fluff reason about them not being pure and on the verge of chaosish malformations?

I thought they where the most unique of all the power armor spin off chaptures.

/discus please.

It was probably a combination of all of those. The long fangs, the cheaper gear and the unfortunately at times goofy fluff; though not all of it thankfully.

Quoting myself to provide my two cents on the subject:

Lynata wrote:Space Wolves for me.

They actually have a rather cool idea at their heart (vikings in space!), but the whole way it has been pulled of in detail, them seemingly having the monopoly on winning unwinnable fights (is there actually an instance where they have lost even once?), and additionally getting away with flipping their finger at just about any other Imperial faction (including the Inquisition for feth's sake) just disgusts me and makes them look terribly Mary-Sue. Wasted potential, imo. :(

In short, yeah, for me it's their fluff. I wouldn't even want them to go the way of the squats, but in their current version they don't fit into the IoM for me. They're too rebellious, too mutated, too heretic - and nothing happens due to it! That they are oh-so-almighty and never lose a fight is only the cherry on top. No Space Marine Chapter should be able to beat an entire Segmentum worth of Imperial Navy, no Space Marine Chapter should stand its ground against millions of Guardsmen, no Space Marine Chapter should be able to flip off the Inquisition and not suffer any consequences whatsoever.
They either need to be reigned in somewhat, or can transform into a CSM Legion. The latter would undoubtedly be controversial, but would have great potential, storywise.

I did hear about the Long Fangs, but never played against them, so I can't comment on the SW in terms of how they play.

They are supposed to be relatively melee orientated and yet are the best SM shooty army.

Everything they have is 'just better' than vanilla dex.

Their whole clan/legion structure is a bit insane and they seem to get away with things any other chapter would be censured for doing.

I hate them because they are OTT and their leaders are all incompetent donkey-caves who seem to oppose authority simply because they can. Space vikings is fine, space vikings that like wolves are fine, space vikings that like wolves, base all of their ranks and equipment off of wolves or parts of wolves and ride giant wolves is just too damn much for me. At least Orks are funny, space wolves are just sad.

Worst Fluff in 40K to date (Wolfy-wolf-mowgli-Marines, Killing Sister for nothin, Eldar-Allies before Imperials, womanizing against all Space Marine physiology, GTA-Thunderhawk) combined with a painfully inept army list (JoTWW, LongFangs, etc..).

What's not to hate?


They are also the perhaps best example so far where the list provided by the Codex and the fluff just don't match at all. Fluff is all about heroic close-combat, etc.. . Game-play it's the most defensive and static gun-line Marine-army there is. Counter-Attack is a premier example of things gone wrong. It's supposed to showcase Space Wolf close-combat prowess. In the game, it actually reduces the incentive to be on the charge, making the army more "passive". Similarly, all those "heroes-of-legends" slaying big baddies in 1-on-1 fights get sidelined for JoTWW-Psyker-spam that makes Eldar blush with envy.

They tend to be OP to a degree. Im not a fan of their fluff and the whole SM riding on giant wolves thing is...dumb.

I don't hate them, but I haven't read any of their fluff, and I've never played against them. So maybe it's just a matter of time until my curiosity outweighs my dislike of reading books.

Phototoxin wrote:They are supposed to be relatively melee orientated and yet are the best SM shooty army.

Everything they have is 'just better' than vanilla dex.

Their whole clan/legion structure is a bit insane and they seem to get away with things any other chapter would be censured for doing.

This, and 100x this.
I have yet to play a SW player who did not bring his obligatory 3 units of Long Fangs. Whether it be pick up games, tournments, or league games, its always the same list, no real variety. It is incredibly boring to play against. I enjoy tactical hard pressed games win or lose. But as an Ork player, its just annoying to hear SW players complain about having 1 Battlewagon, 1 mek with a KFF, and 1 unit of Lootas. I have yet to play a SW player in 5th who did anything other then sit there shoot, not move, and try to use 2 units in Rhino's or Pods. The LGS has 4-5 SW players who all have 3 units with MIssiles, really? There are other options in that list, use them.

Your army has counter attack... use it! Take some big blobs of grey hunters or blood claws with HQ's leading them and actually scrap it out against Orks, you will likely win combat, often.

I just start them for my new army in 6th .

Just like the looks of them and there background.
I'm not playing whit any tanks only 2 drop pods
Rest units and wolves.

Lynata wrote:Quoting myself to provide my two cents on the subject:

Lynata wrote:Space Wolves for me.

They actually have a rather cool idea at their heart (vikings in space!), but the whole way it has been pulled of in detail, them seemingly having the monopoly on winning unwinnable fights (is there actually an instance where they have lost even once?), and additionally getting away with flipping their finger at just about any other Imperial faction (including the Inquisition for feth's sake) just disgusts me and makes them look terribly Mary-Sue. Wasted potential, imo. :(

In short, yeah, for me it's their fluff. I wouldn't even want them to go the way of the squats, but in their current version they don't fit into the IoM for me. They're too rebellious, too mutated, too heretic - and nothing happens due to it! That they are oh-so-almighty and never lose a fight is only the cherry on top.

Someone here needs to read the Chaos codex, particularly that part where the Red Corsairs slaughter an entire Strike Cruiser full of Space Wolves. It got so bad, near the end Space Wolves were turning on their brothers and pledging themselves to Huron so they wouldn't be killed.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_of_Fenris#.T-2pd_VYmnk

sirlotsofpain wrote:I could not help but notice just how highly the SW ranked on the "which faction do you hate the most" Thread.

Is it because you view them as OP?

Is it because they dont fit well in the 40k Universe and should go the way of the squat?

Or is it maybe some fluff reason about them not being pure and on the verge of chaosish malformations?

I thought they where the most unique of all the power armor spin off chaptures.

/discus please.

This is coming from a CSM player.

1. I view them as OP. JotWW can instakill 200+ pt MC's and snipe models such as a Nob is a Boy squad. Rhino's give them this mobility. Also, add bitterness for Lash being a PSA that has to roll to hit now and Jaws being, "Hurr draw a line." Long Fangs are stupidly cheap with their low costs and split fire. Their standard squad can sit sit and double tap Plasma's, just daring you to charge with their counter attack.

2. They are too rebellious in my eyes, Space Marines are battle monks, not drunks in power armor. They try hard to be bawdy warriors and honorable. Pick one. They get away with too much stuff when compared to other chapters. Why are they so special?

3. I play a Thousand Sons army. Those hypocrites used psychic powers/sorcery themselves and practically destroyed my Legion and totally destroyed their home planet for it. This was emphasized in "A Thousand Sons." Leman Russ is all too willing to fight his brothers, when before the Heresy it was unthinkable to attack a fellow Space Marine. They attacked the Thousand Sons and had a spat with the Dark Angels too.


That's why I dislike the Space Wolves. I dislike them to most out of anything not only in Warhammer 40k but in any fictional universe that I personally know of. Nothing here is really debatable, as it's all my opinion.

Because they're like MLP or Furries invading 40k, they're to entrenched in fluff for them to leave though.

I think anything that's contentious shouldn't be in 40k, and MLP and Furries are hot topics.

Hopefully the whole fad will phase out, hopefully...

Got a problem with MLP?

Also, they're not really furries. If you want real wargame furry check out the NOMAD faction in Infinity. They're really furries.

Phototoxin wrote:This, and 100x this.
I have yet to play a SW player who did not bring his obligatory 3 units of Long Fangs. Whether it be pick up games, tournments, or league games, its always the same list, no real variety. It is incredibly boring to play against. I enjoy tactical hard pressed games win or lose. But as an Ork player, its just annoying to hear SW players complain about having 1 Battlewagon, 1 mek with a KFF, and 1 unit of Lootas. I have yet to play a SW player in 5th who did anything other then sit there shoot, not move, and try to use 2 units in Rhino's or Pods. The LGS has 4-5 SW players who all have 3 units with MIssiles, really? There are other options in that list, use them.

Your army has counter attack... use it! Take some big blobs of grey hunters or blood claws with HQ's leading them and actually scrap it out against Orks, you will likely win combat, often.

Sounds like a pretty boring local meta to me. I personally dislike the static gunline builds, and lean heavily towards melee (without TWC!)...

As for "A Thousand Sons", that book is just one perspective. You're supposed to read it and "Prospero Burns" to get both sides of the story - it'd be like going to court and only hearing the defendant's side of the story. You'll clearly see that Leman Russ isn't happy at all about having to kill the Thousand Sons, but is merely doing what has to be done. "A Thousand Sons" is very heavily skewed in favour of the Thousand Sons, and really vilifies the Wolves and makes them out to look like massive hypocrites (which, to some extend, they might be), but this is from the Thousand Sons' limited perspective. I think Graham McNeill missed his opportunity with "A Thousand Sons" to turn the fate of the legion into a Shakespearean tragedy, with the fall coming from their arrogance. He hints at it in the story, but it's not exactly "there".

Justus wrote:Got a problem with MLP?

Also, they're not really furries. If you want real wargame furry check out the NOMAD faction in Infinity. They're really furries.

Speaking of furries and Space Wolves, I recently finished up a birthday present for a friend. It's a model with the wolf head from the SW Pack kit, and a wolf tail from the Goblin Wolf Rider kit from WHFB. My friend's character is a fox, but it works well enough with the wolf bits to be passable. : D

What the OP also has to realize is that it is very easy to rage on something over the internet. So much easier to show dislike than praise.

I bet if there was a poll saying which loyalist SM faction do you like the most, SM would actually rank pretty high behind "other" as a lot of people would nominate their own home brew faction.

However, SW are loved by many. They are the only SM faction I ever considered playing when I got into the game in 3rd ed. It took this latest modeling release for me to actually purchase an army because I do love the models.

To the guy who says they do everything cheaper/better our 66 point TH/SS termies would like to disagree. Our bikers and jump packers with lower WS/BS would like to disagree.

Myself, I have never fielded a unit of long fangs. Only three units of grey hunters, one bloodclaw, and actually use our overcosted terminators.

sirlotsofpain wrote:I could not help but notice just how highly the SW ranked on the "which faction do you hate the most" Thread.

Is it because you view them as OP?

Is it because they dont fit well in the 40k Universe and should go the way of the squat?

Or is it maybe some fluff reason about them not being pure and on the verge of chaosish malformations?

I thought they where the most unique of all the power armor spin off chaptures.

/discus please.

A combination of everything. They basically came in as a CSM undivided army with loyalist SM special rules and wargear access, at a 10-15% price discount, but then also get Counterattack on top of that. Most tournament SW armies you see look more like Iron Warriors armies, with lots of very small units (often in multiples of 3) packing as many heavy/special weapons as possible. So not only do they come off as undercosted/overcapable, but their common builds generally come off as completely unfluffy.

Their fluff is...poor. Vikings in Space have all the potential in the world to be awesome, but they come off as arrogant, contradictory, and goofy, trying too hard to be too many things that just don't work well with each other, and all too often they are written in a manner that reads more like bad internet fanfic than anything else, though sadly that's not restricted to just SW's of late.

Jayden63 wrote:
To the guy who says they do everything cheaper/better our 66 point TH/SS termies would like to disagree. Our bikers and jump packers with lower WS/BS would like to disagree.

Which, at least under 5E rules (still don't have my 6E book yet sadly) the TH/SS thing was fairly irrelevant as you only needed a couple SS's to get 95% of the benefit most of the time unless being hit with loads of purely AP2 fire and you could take a cheaper (and in 99% of cases just as effective) powerfist, and again didn't need to take a fist on everything either to do the job. A couple of SS's and a couple of powerfists gave you most of what you needed plus the flexiblity to take stuff like Combi-Meltas with 33/38pt terminators with Counterattack. Bikers and Jump packers were more situational, but on any turn they get off a charge or are charged themselves are generally more effective than their counterparts in other books, and hardly core to the way the army plays.

Fenrisian wolves have since the 2nd ed codex been discribed as powerfull creatures, some can even grow to the size of a rhino and use their jaws to tear through steel plate, these are not teran wolves we are talking about they are engineered to survive on a deathworld, frankly such a creature carrying a space marine isnt that big of a stretch.

As for their being mutants thats how they've been since the emperor made them, their gene seed is not like the others it interacts with the canis helix also in canon since 2nd ed.

And they have their own "empire", they patrol a huge territory of space and have time and again have defended the people of those worlds and sworn oaths of loyalty, you cant attack the SW without gaining the ire of the entire subsector.

And lets not forget in the 36th milenium it was the space wolves that ended the age of apostasy by leading the assault on the palace to end the mad reign of Vandire after the silly sod invaded fenris, terra knows full well the hell they'd bring down onthemselves if they anger the wolves.

They have a rich history in 40k thats not changed that much since 2nd ed, stop being so damn butthurt because they are in a strong place at the moment.

Not a huge fan of the direction they went. In Rogue Trader, Space Wolves were cool. In 2nd Edition, they got a bit too wolfy but the fluff was still solid. By 5th Edition's codex, they're a caricature of Space Marines. Too silly. I mean, now they even ride into battle on giant wolves.

Lynata wrote:Quoting myself to provide my two cents on the subject:

Lynata wrote:Space Wolves for me.

They actually have a rather cool idea at their heart (vikings in space!), but the whole way it has been pulled of in detail, them seemingly having the monopoly on winning unwinnable fights (is there actually an instance where they have lost even once?), and additionally getting away with flipping their finger at just about any other Imperial faction (including the Inquisition for feth's sake) just disgusts me and makes them look terribly Mary-Sue. Wasted potential, imo. :(

In short, yeah, for me it's their fluff. I wouldn't even want them to go the way of the squats, but in their current version they don't fit into the IoM for me. They're too rebellious, too mutated, too heretic - and nothing happens due to it! That they are oh-so-almighty and never lose a fight is only the cherry on top. No Space Marine Chapter should be able to beat an entire Segmentum worth of Imperial Navy, no Space Marine Chapter should stand its ground against millions of Guardsmen, no Space Marine Chapter should be able to flip off the Inquisition and not suffer any consequences whatsoever.
They either need to be reigned in somewhat, or can transform into a CSM Legion. The latter would undoubtedly be controversial, but would have great potential, storywise.

I did hear about the Long Fangs, but never played against them, so I can't comment on the SW in terms of how they play.

Rather than vent my trademark bile at the Wolves, I'll just quote Lynata here. Maybe not a CSM Legion, but I think they should at least be Renegades.

Justus3 wrote: I play a Thousand Sons army. Those hypocrites used psychic powers/sorcery themselves and practically destroyed my Legion and totally destroyed their home planet for it. This was emphasized in "A Thousand Sons." Leman Russ is all too willing to fight his brothers, when before the Heresy it was unthinkable to attack a fellow Space Marine. They attacked the Thousand Sons and had a spat with the Dark Angels too.

You do have to admit that the Thousands Sons use of psychic powers went and continues to go well beyond the use by the Space Wolves. Magnus was not brought under censure for using the same types of powers as his brothers' legions did. They went above and beyond any other legion. Supposedly Russ was just supposed to bring in Magnus, not attack and destroy the legion, but Horus got in the way of that and set off the full attack. Russ certainly did seem all too ready and all too willing to do so, though...

Skriker

hobojebus wrote:As for their being mutants thats how they've been since the emperor made them, their gene seed is not like the others it interacts with the canis helix also in canon since 2nd ed.

This part never made sense to me. So the Canis Helix fails in anyone that isn't from Fenris, which is why they can't have successor chapters that don't freak out and go Wulfen at the drop of a hat. Yet how then was the original Legion formed? Obviously, something on Fenris has profoundly altered their DNA. i.e. mutants, and certainly not how the Emperor made them.

I love the space wolf fluff. They have elements of vikings with the runes and traditions. They also have the canis gene helix that mutates them into a bi-pedal wolf 80% of the size of a normal marine if they lose control of themselves in battle. They have their own rights of passage into becoming a Space Wolf. The SW denie the mutated strain of the helix and their transformations - because they would become labled stained/liability. They are rebellious enough to be close to chaos, but loyal enough to do the right thing when no one is looking. They have their own "empire" the fang and space sector, and each company operates seperately from one another unlike other marine companies. Then there is the 13th company stuff. There are some IG units/commanders the wolves hate, but will help them still (Battle of Betalis III). The list goes on...they arn't just drunken space vikens flipping the bird to the emperor.

Model wise I love as well. Some of the best Space Marine models are wolves imo. The heads/faces are all excellent scuplts. I love werewolves so I am sad GW doesnt have a big selection yet. My company is Bran Redmaw which is suppose to have the majority of wolves that can transform..even Redmaw himself with forgeworld rules!! <3

Unit composition - Long Fangs is the obvious choice for heavy selections in their army. It is unfortunate, but its almost fact. Jaws of the World Wolf, usually does not work for me because the other army is in vehicles or they pass their I test. I however only take 1-2 of those and use it maybe 1 time a game if that. I am a murderous hurricane and living lightening fan. Grey Hunters are cool, but if they lose their mark of the wulfen guy they are toast. Counter Attack is good, but I don't rely on it since its only first round of swings and can still be failed...so not to to good, but good...great though that it comes with the base price of the model. Scouts are awesome with their outflank rule, but might take a back seat with the newer missions and rules dunno.

I try to have a unique list, but having to take so much anti tank stuff in an armor based on current meta kinda keeps me from doing so...IE 3 long Fangs. All in all = my fav. army hands down.

sirlotsofpain wrote:I could not help but notice just how highly the SW ranked on the "which faction do you hate the most" Thread.

Is it because you view them as OP?

Probably this, though I don't find them exactly overpowered, it's more a matter of points cost and inner balance. Every codex has strong units, deathstars and killer combos, but that power usually comes at a high price. It's not the case with Space Wolves. Their deadliest units are also dirt cheap, making them highly spammable.

In the end, this makes the Wolves a glorified one-trick pony that, even in the hands of a fair and friendly opponent, becomes tedious to fight against.

Is it because they dont fit well in the 40k Universe and should go the way of the squat?

I admit I hated the drunken viking-werewolf theme in the past, but Abnett redeemed them in my eyes.

Or is it maybe some fluff reason about them not being pure and on the verge of chaosish malformations?

Certainly not. I actually like the Wolves' defiant and uneasy attitude towards the post-Heresy order. Besides, I'm here for the grimdark! Mutations? Engineered killers purposefully designed to stand out amongst an elite of posthuman warrior-aristocrats? Fine in my books.

I thought they where the most unique of all the power armor spin off chaptures.

Well, in fluff they are. That may be another reason why people are not so keen on the Space Wolves: Fluff and rules don't quite match. I'd love to see a future version of them more in line with their recent fluff. I mean, have the Wolves designed to best their fellow Space Marines, to be the ultimate anti-MEQ force. After all, the Emperor created them with that very purpose in mind

As a sidenote for other commenters, please leave MLP and Furries out of the discussion. First, 40k deals with a hefty ton of contentious matters. Second, if someone wants to interpret their favorite army in a Furry/Brony light, this ain't my problem and shouldn't be yours either. Third, Space Wolves predate both Friendship is Magic and Furry Fandom by at least two decades. The Internetz has not been there forever.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:
As a sidenote for other commenters, please leave MLP and Furries out of the discussion. First, 40k deals with a hefty ton of contentious matters. Second, if someone wants to interpret their favorite army in a Furry/Brony light, this ain't my problem and shouldn't be yours either. Third, Space Wolves predate both Friendship is Magic and Furry Fandom by at least two decades. The Internetz has not been there forever.

So what you're saying is that Space Wolves have been around since the 1960s?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_fandom

According to fandom historian Fred Patten, the concept of furry originated at a science fiction convention in 1980,[3] when a character drawing from Steve Gallacci’s Albedo Anthropomorphics started a discussion of anthropomorphic characters in science fiction novels. This led to the formation of a discussion group that met at science fiction and comics conventions.

Agent_Tremolo wrote: I'd love to see a future version of them more in line with their recent fluff. I mean, have the Wolves designed to best their fellow Space Marines, to be the ultimate anti-MEQ force. After all, the Emperor created them with that very purpose in mind

Well, that's what the SW's think they're for, but that's a relatively recent thing for SW fluff (in a book that portrayed the SW's being very different and contradictory to other portrayals, and annoying use of silly phrases like "murder-make") and 10,000 years old regardless, not something that really was ever really a defining hallmark of the Space Wolves, they certainly haven't engaged in much SM on SM conflicts since then.

Kal-El wrote:I love the space wolf fluff. They have elements of vikings with the runes and traditions. They also have the canis gene helix that mutates them into a bi-pedal wolf 80% of the size of a normal marine if they lose control of themselves in battle.

Huh....? Since when? There's one 6 month old character that has that ability in IA11, it's not something all SW's can do.

They have their own rights of passage into becoming a Space Wolf. The SW denie the mutated strain of the helix and their transformations - because they would become labled stained/liability. They are rebellious enough to be close to chaos, but loyal enough to do the right thing when no one is looking. They have their own "empire" the fang and space sector, and each company operates seperately from one another unlike other marine companies. Then there is the 13th company stuff. There are some IG units/commanders the wolves hate, but will help them still (Battle of Betalis III). The list goes on...they arn't just drunken space vikens flipping the bird to the emperor.

In other words, they can do no wrong. This is sorta the problem.

Unit composition - Long Fangs is the obvious choice for heavy selections in their army. It is unfortunate, but its almost fact. Jaws of the World Wolf, usually does not work for me because the other army is in vehicles or they pass their I test. I however only take 1-2 of those and use it maybe 1 time a game if that. I am a murderous hurricane and living lightening fan.

So is everyone else when they don't have a target for Jaws

Grey Hunters are cool, but if they lose their mark of the wulfen guy they are toast.

Again...huh? with 2 attacks each, 3 on a charge or when they get charged, and the ability to take a dirt cheap sergeant with cheap upgrades, they're significantly more capable than equivalent marine units, especially for their cost which is also cheaper, noticeably so.

Counter Attack is good, but I don't rely on it since its only first round of swings and can still be failed...so not to to good,

On Ld8 failure is ~1/4 chance, on Ld9 it's 1/6. On that first round you're likely hitting back with as many if not more hits than your attackers thanks to the BP/CCW combo that other loyalist marines don't get. It's super good.

Scouts are awesome with their outflank rule, but might take a back seat with the newer missions and rules dunno.

Probably not, despite only having a 1/3 chance not to get to choose which board edge to come on (usually the opponents back edge) 6E rules inexplicably decided they needed to get a reroll on that with the change to acute senses.

I try to have a unique list, but having to take so much anti tank stuff in an armor based on current meta kinda keeps me from doing so...IE 3 long Fangs.

hard to say it's unique then.


Not trying to hate directly on you too much, if you like the SW's, then by all means go out for it, just realize that yeah, a lot of this stuff is much sillier than you're making it out to be.

Because it's cool to hate on popular armies!!!!

I personally think the SW are sweet fluff wise and the way they look. I like the whole Norse theme that goes along with them.

My 2 cents is that they are disliked because they're nothing like their fluff in terms of play style. Long fangs are a must for a lot of SW players, and so armies tend to get built around them. This makes for a very "We are ferocious close combat warriors! Now run at us while we shoot you from afar..." feel to them. Their army list is contradictory... Not to mention that their fluff in the latest codex is laughably bad because of reasons I won't repeat for the sake of brevity. A noticable trend is that they get more and more radical fluff with each codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:And lets not forget in the 36th milenium it was the space wolves that ended the age of apostasy by leading the assault on the palace to end the mad reign of Vandire after the silly sod invaded fenris, terra knows full well the hell they'd bring down onthemselves if they anger the wolves.

So if Vandire didn't have Fenris attacked would they have got involved? Probably not in my opinion, they don't seem to care who reigns at the top as long as they get to do their sh!t... and thats something that makes me more inclined to dislike them, they have a prehistoric feral barbarian culture in the 41st millenium, something that clashes with the whole style and feel of the rest of the imperium. How could they NOT have been declared excommunicae traitoris by now?

Pouncey wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:
As a sidenote for other commenters, please leave MLP and Furries out of the discussion. First, 40k deals with a hefty ton of contentious matters. Second, if someone wants to interpret their favorite army in a Furry/Brony light, this ain't my problem and shouldn't be yours either. Third, Space Wolves predate both Friendship is Magic and Furry Fandom by at least two decades. The Internetz has not been there forever.

So what you're saying is that Space Wolves have been around since the 1960s?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_fandom

According to fandom historian Fred Patten, the concept of furry originated at a science fiction convention in 1980,[3] when a character drawing from Steve Gallacci’s Albedo Anthropomorphics started a discussion of anthropomorphic characters in science fiction novels. This led to the formation of a discussion group that met at science fiction and comics conventions.

Looks like someone's seeking an argument that no one wants to respond to.