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I don’t see how you can call it a NERF. Yes it went from a 4+ to a 5+, so you now get to use it more.

You take a Squad of 5 Grey Knights armed with HFW vs.
-Marine Command Squad with a Apothecary
-Wyches
-Orks with a Pain Boy

In 5th Edition
-Grey Knights wound 6 Marines, No Save no FNP, 6 Wounds, 5 Dead Marines
-Grey Knights wound 6 Witches 5++ Save No FNP, 2 5++ Saves later 4 Dead Wyches
-Grey Knights wound 6 Orks, no Save no FNP, 6 Wounds, 6 Dead Orks.

In 6th Edition
-Grey Knights wound 6 Marines, No Save, FNP 5++, 4 Wounds and 4 Dead Marines
-Grey Knights wound 6 Witches 5++ Save FNP 5++, 2 5++ Saves and 2 FNP Saves later 2 Dead Wyches
-Grey Knights wound 6 Orks, no Save FNP 5++, 4 Wounds, 4 Dead Orks.

For the Grey Knights to Ignore FNP they would have to give up using their one Psychic power use to use their NFW on instant Death everyone rather than use powers like Hammer-Hand, Holocaust, Cleansing Flame, Warp Quake or Astral Aim.

Replace the Grey Knights with Space Marine Vanguard Vets or Wolf Guard Terminators with Power Weapon or Dark Angels with Paired Lighting Claws it all come out the same.

How can something be NERFED it you can now use it. And don’t give that Power Fist will ignore FNP crap, it always did, so how can something be NERFED if you never had it in the 1st Place.

Darthovious - yet previously AP2/1 AND being >=S8 would have been reasons why a lascannon would stop a PM from getting FNP - now he gets FNP because of the change to bracketed toughness AND the change to FNP

If you run Orks and play MEQ a lot, you should be thrilled with the new FNP.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:

I think he was talking about the instant death rule where things get slain outright by weapons whose strength are double your toughness, after available saves were taken of course i.e. Invulnearable. A Lascannon does not instant kill a toughness 5 model anyway. Neither under previous rules or under these rules.

In 5th Lascannons IDed T4(5) Plague Marines. Now they do not.

BETTER

Thats not down to the feel no pain rule though. Thats down to the removal of brackets for toughness rule. If feel no pain had stayed the same then it wouldn't have made a difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Darthovious - yet previously AP2/1 AND being >=S8 would have been reasons why a lascannon would stop a PM from getting FNP - now he gets FNP because of the change to bracketed toughness AND the change to FNP

Yes I know, the conversation was about instant death in regards to feel no pain.

Anpu42 wrote:I don’t see how you can call it a NERF. Yes it went from a 4+ to a 5+, so you now get to use it more.

You take a Squad of 5 Grey Knights armed with HFW vs.
-Marine Command Squad with a Apothecary
-Wyches
-Orks with a Pain Boy

In 5th Edition
-Grey Knights wound 6 Marines, No Save no FNP, 6 Wounds, 5 Dead Marines
-Grey Knights wound 6 Witches 5++ Save No FNP, 2 5++ Saves later 4 Dead Wyches
-Grey Knights wound 6 Orks, no Save no FNP, 6 Wounds, 6 Dead Orks.

In 6th Edition
-Grey Knights wound 6 Marines, No Save, FNP 5++, 4 Wounds and 4 Dead Marines
-Grey Knights wound 6 Witches 5++ Save FNP 5++, 2 5++ Saves and 2 FNP Saves later 2 Dead Wyches
-Grey Knights wound 6 Orks, no Save FNP 5++, 4 Wounds, 4 Dead Orks.

For the Grey Knights to Ignore FNP they would have to give up using their one Psychic power use to use their NFW on instant Death everyone rather than use powers like Hammer-Hand, Holocaust, Cleansing Flame, Warp Quake or Astral Aim.

Replace the Grey Knights with Space Marine Vanguard Vets or Wolf Guard Terminators with Power Weapon or Dark Angels with Paired Lighting Claws it all come out the same.

How can something be NERFED it you can now use it. And don’t give that Power Fist will ignore FNP crap, it always did, so how can something be NERFED if you never had it in the 1st Place.

It's a combination of things. I can't speak for other armies, and I do agree that overall it is a buff, but for my army in particular, I'd say it's a nerf.

Thing is, we didn't really gain that "more chance to use it" thing, S6 still ID us, everything ignores our armour just as before, we didn't care about AP1 then, we won't care about them now, but we still got drop to 5++ along with everyone else, and then you add in the fact that covers in general got dropped to 5+. So it really is a case of comparing gains and losses, and we honestly didn't gain anything from the changes. Also FNP happens outside of combat as well, our kabalite warriors could benefit from FNP while standing on objective. our beastmaster/hellion blob could benefit from FNP while moving forward with the baron. Coven units will benefit more from the changes, while coven list is still a great DE list, it doesn't change the fact that most of our units are running on T3.

To say it is absolutely a buff for everyone is just as bad as saying it's a nerf for everyone.

Vaktathi wrote:

blood guard26 wrote:I cant believe they nerfed feel no pain, that was one of the best ways to ensure your cc units got into assault now it's basically a termie ++save

(The irony is that i had just ordered a whole lot of apothecaries to protect my assault marines and they get nerfed!)

They didn't nerf it, they changed it. Yeah, it's only a 5+ now, but you get it against AP1/2/power attacks unless it causes ID. The 4+ was wayyyy too reliable.

Yes, of course. In fact, 40K in general was wayyyy too reliable and desperately needed much more randomness! That's why, all during 5th, and 4th, and 3rd, so many players were screaming from the rooftops, "GW! 40K is wayyyy too reliable! Give us randomness!"

Please.

LordOfTheSloths wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

blood guard26 wrote:I cant believe they nerfed feel no pain, that was one of the best ways to ensure your cc units got into assault now it's basically a termie ++save

(The irony is that i had just ordered a whole lot of apothecaries to protect my assault marines and they get nerfed!)

They didn't nerf it, they changed it. Yeah, it's only a 5+ now, but you get it against AP1/2/power attacks unless it causes ID. The 4+ was wayyyy too reliable.

Yes, of course. In fact, 40K in general was wayyyy too reliable and desperately needed much more randomness! That's why, all during 5th, and 4th, and 3rd, so many players were screaming from the rooftops, "GW! 40K is wayyyy too reliable! Give us randomness!"

Please.

Yes, clearly that was my thrust...not.

No, by reliable I meant it was too effective against weapons that didn't ignore it, and did nothing against many attacks that you might otherwise have wanted to use it against. At 5+ you can take hits from the big guns and still have something left, but you can't sit there and wade through as much small arms fire like it was rain.


And if you'd been bothered to read the 6E rules and GW's design studio open day reports, randomness exactly what they're going for.

Vaktathi wrote:
And if you'd been bothered to read the 6E rules and GW's design studio open day reports, randomness exactly what they're going for.

Yes, I know that's "exactly what they're going for". That's also what I think is flat-out stupid and what I strongly object to. Sufficiently strongly that I will almost certainly sit out 6E entirely.

IDK, the randomness is actually a nice factor. And you can always remove random terrain and scenerios if you want. Random charges are an additional tactical layer that was a good addition.

LordOfTheSloths wrote: Sufficiently strongly that I will almost certainly sit out 6E entirely.

Shhh... Do you hear that? The sound of the Universe not giving a crap!

LordOfTheSloths wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:
And if you'd been bothered to read the 6E rules and GW's design studio open day reports, randomness exactly what they're going for.

Yes, I know that's "exactly what they're going for". That's also what I think is flat-out stupid and what I strongly object to. Sufficiently strongly that I will almost certainly sit out 6E entirely.

While I don't disagree that it's stupid for the ruleset as a whole, I don't think the changes to FNP were unwarranted, it was a wee bit too bimodal before, either too effective against weeny hits, completely ineffective against big hits. Pretty much anyone guessing on changes to 6E could would have guessed FNP would be bumped down to 5+ given how widespread its availability had become.

Grey Templar wrote:IDK, the randomness is actually a nice factor. And you can always remove random terrain and scenerios if you want. Random charges are an additional tactical layer that was a good addition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_tactics

Randomness has nothing to do with tactics. It's the antithesis of tactics.

I really don't see how anyone can say it's been nerfed, if anything it's been made a million times better.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote: Sufficiently strongly that I will almost certainly sit out 6E entirely.

Shhh... Do you hear that? The sound of the Universe not giving a crap!

When you become qualified to speak for "the Universe," let us know. Until then, join the ranks of those about whom no crap is given

Ok, I'll just sit back and read all the posts begging you not to sit 6th edition out...

As far as random assault moves, the change makes assaulting more of a question of probabilities and less a question of the player's ability to guess range. Which to me should have no bearing on how well your army performs. Which is why guess range weapons were phased out two editions ago.

Surtur - yet in a wargame an element of uncertainty IS what tactics is about, as opposed to strategy wher eyou have perfect knowledge.

How can you say you gained "nothing" playing DE? Apparently FNP against S5 or less power weapons is "nothing"

I agree that FnP is stronger now as it works against alot more than it used to, sure its 5+ but it works against power weapons now really extending the life span in melee.

Surtur wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:IDK, the randomness is actually a nice factor. And you can always remove random terrain and scenerios if you want. Random charges are an additional tactical layer that was a good addition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_tactics

Randomness has nothing to do with tactics. It's the antithesis of tactics.

Look at what is random in the rules.

Things you, the general, have zero control over.


You can't be sure your troops would actually be able to make it through the difficult terrain to get to grips with the enemy as fast as you want.

You can't be 100% sure what the ground is like(hence why each player places 50% of the terrain)

You can't be sure your own skills with directly translate to the battlefield(random warlord traits)


The best tactician is one who can adapt on the fly to a changing situation. If you think tactics is just a chess game, you havn't even scratched the surface. That just teaches you tactics in a fair fight(and even then, Chess is inherently unbalanced as White ALWAYS goes first)

Getting Feel No Pain on everything but instant death is a fair trade off for a 5+. IMHO, they passed out Feel No Pain like candy in 5th edition.

Vaktathi wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:
And if you'd been bothered to read the 6E rules and GW's design studio open day reports, randomness exactly what they're going for.

Yes, I know that's "exactly what they're going for". That's also what I think is flat-out stupid and what I strongly object to. Sufficiently strongly that I will almost certainly sit out 6E entirely.

While I don't disagree that it's stupid for the ruleset as a whole, I don't think the changes to FNP were unwarranted, it was a wee bit too bimodal before, either too effective against weeny hits, completely ineffective against big hits. Pretty much anyone guessing on changes to 6E could would have guessed FNP would be bumped down to 5+ given how widespread its availability had become.

I hate to appeal to realism in the context of 40K, but there's another reason the FNP nerf is stupid. IMO it's infinitely more believable that, say, some berzerk World Eater could take lots and lots of small arms fire and shrug it off, than it is for the same CSM to shrug off plasma cannon blasts or other "big hits". Bi-modality makes sense. The new rule doesn't.

LordOfTheSloths wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:
And if you'd been bothered to read the 6E rules and GW's design studio open day reports, randomness exactly what they're going for.

Yes, I know that's "exactly what they're going for". That's also what I think is flat-out stupid and what I strongly object to. Sufficiently strongly that I will almost certainly sit out 6E entirely.

But, that's shortsighted and misguided.

The introduction of selected random elements forces players to predict and adapt, rewarding players that have better tactics.

Grey Templar wrote:The best tactician is one who can adapt on the fly to a changing situation. If you think tactics is just a chess game, you havn't even scratched the surface.

I'd even take it a step further. The best tactician is the person who can most make reality conform to their desires, despite changing situations.

And that's the real problem. A better player can adapt better to random change than a worse player, but neither player can make what they want reality without resorting to rolling dice. As such, any tactics is really rather limited, as you're always far from reaching this goal.