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lazarian wrote:nurgle bikers get eternal warrior effectively for free now.

Which really doesn't matter since they only have 1 wound each and don't have access to FNP.

Honestly, I didn't find the initiative bump that useful for my Orks anyways.

I was still going after just about everything else, and the guys that go at or around my initiative weren't as dangerous in CC anyways (Guard, Necrons, Tau). It sucks a little for Nobs and Bosses n'stuff, but a lot of those were going at I1 anyways M I RITE!?

Brother SRM wrote:

lazarian wrote:nurgle bikers get eternal warrior effectively for free now.

Which really doesn't matter since they only have 1 wound each and don't have access to FNP.

True but a Nurgle lord on a bike is a bad boy now.

lazarian wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

lazarian wrote:nurgle bikers get eternal warrior effectively for free now.

Which really doesn't matter since they only have 1 wound each and don't have access to FNP.

True but a Nurgle lord on a bike is a bad boy now.

Until he runs into that force axe wielding Librarian that insta gib's him anyway.

Um not really. Power weapons and ap 2 and 1 weapons dont affet it anymore. Close combat units got a BUFF because of this. No more charging into guys with powerfists and not getting any saves

16% loss in effectiveness over a gain against 80% of the weapons that were fired at them. Sounds like a buff to me.

Careful your knee doesn't get dislocated with all that jerking, OP.

More like a 33% reduction in saved wounds, but the rest is correct.

I was talking about the difference between 5th and 6th. Specifically a 4+ to a 5+ which is 16%.

No, it really is a 33% reduction in saved wounds.

Previously you would have saved 3 out of every 6 wounds. Now you only save 2 out of every 6. The difference between 2 and 3 is 33% less.

Brother SRM wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
In short, calm down, and play a few games. 6

But don't you know? Different is always bad! The sky is literally falling now that things are slightly different!

But don't you know? Different is always good! It's all rainbows and unicorns and puppies now that things are "slightly" different!

Makes about as much sense. And I just love the way a certain percentage of overly zealous GW admirers trivialize dissent while imagining that snarkiness and lemming-like devotion somehow makes them look cool and with it.

But to the main point: once again, GW makes a change for the worse in some feature, then thinks that by making it worse but usable in more situations that it's all good. Please.

It cannot be mitigated by using a different type of weapon any more. The enemy has less control over whether you get it or not. It's a plus.

Grey Templar wrote:No, it really is a 33% reduction in saved wounds.

Previously you would have saved 3 out of every 6 wounds. Now you only save 2 out of every 6. The difference between 2 and 3 is 33% less.

I don't know if you guys know this but you're arguing about the exact same thing.

The reduction of the 4+ to a 5+ was indeed a 17% reduction in the ability to save the wound on the roll as a whole. FNPs ability to save a would was reduced by 33%. It's the same thing, you're both just looking at it from different directions, and neither of you is wrong.

Ummm, for Chaos atleast the new FnP is a HUGE boon.

Plague marines now cant be instakilled by anything but str10 AND get FnP from power weapons? FAR better.

Granted, you are now weaker to small arms fire, but eh, was that ever really the worry with 3+? As you so much worse off with a 3+ AND 5+?

On the other hand, now you got a save against power weapons. Given how many armies get masses of power weapons nowdays(Grey Knights, Daemons, Dark Eldar etc), I would have thought you guys would be all about this.

Granted, it's a bit of a nerf for BA against battlecannons and small arms, but honestly, it still helps you fight GK AND plasmas, both of which are on the rise. And BA could use a bit of a nerf against small arms..

Okay, guys. Can we, as a reasonable and intelligent group of people stop referring to "cannot be instantkilled by X" as some kind of advantage for models that only have one wound?

EVERYTHING INSTAKILLS THEM.

No, not if they get a save.

Plague Marines now get a FnP save against lascannons. How awsome is that!

Deal with it.

I quote the option: "meh"

Not many eldar with FNP anyway.

RxGhost wrote:Okay, guys. Can we, as a reasonable and intelligent group of people stop referring to "cannot be instantkilled by X" as some kind of advantage for models that only have one wound?

EVERYTHING INSTAKILLS THEM.

Previously a lascannon would deny a PM FNP

Now it doesnt.

How is that NOT better?

Lord of the SLoths - you now get FNP against more weapons and types of wounds that you would before. How is that not better?

It isnt trivialising dissent when the dissenters are just plain wrong.

juraigamer wrote:Man I hate knee jerk reactions.

Watch as I take my FNP roll against AP 1 and 2 weapons, watch as I also take it against perils, watch as I take it against dangerous terrain rolls.

Watch as I need to roll a 5+, since a 4+ would be bogus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man I hate knee jerk reactions.

Watch as I take my FNP roll against AP 1 and 2 weapons, watch as I also take it against perils, watch as I take it against dangerous terrain rolls.

Watch as I need to roll a 5+, since a 4+ would be bogus.

SO good you had to say it twice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

RxGhost wrote:Okay, guys. Can we, as a reasonable and intelligent group of people stop referring to "cannot be instantkilled by X" as some kind of advantage for models that only have one wound?

EVERYTHING INSTAKILLS THEM.

Previously a lascannon would deny a PM FNP

Now it doesnt.

How is that NOT better?

Lord of the SLoths - you now get FNP against more weapons and types of wounds that you would before. How is that not better?

It isnt trivialising dissent when the dissenters are just plain wrong.

I think he was talking about the instant death rule where things get slain outright by weapons whose strength are double your toughness, after available saves were taken of course i.e. Invulnearable. A Lascannon does not instant kill a toughness 5 model anyway. Neither under previous rules or under these rules.

I've been on the receiving end of BA lists with a Sanguinary Priest in every unit far too many times... for a noob like me it's hard to deal with.

DarthOvious wrote:

I think he was talking about the instant death rule where things get slain outright by weapons whose strength are double your toughness, after available saves were taken of course i.e. Invulnearable. A Lascannon does not instant kill a toughness 5 model anyway. Neither under previous rules or under these rules.

In 5th Lascannons IDed T4(5) Plague Marines. Now they do not.

BETTER

Ailaros wrote:FNP got buffed, not nerfed. The loss of 4+ to 5+ is more than overtaken by the fact that low Ap weapons no longer cancel it.

This. FNP is so much better now that it's not lost for any reason except ID. Sure, it isn't quite as good if you plow into a basic unit like ork boyz with it but once you hit a posse of specialist troops that have power weapons etc you'll be happy.

Spetulhu wrote:

Ailaros wrote:FNP got buffed, not nerfed. The loss of 4+ to 5+ is more than overtaken by the fact that low Ap weapons no longer cancel it.

This. FNP is so much better now that it's not lost for any reason except ID. Sure, it isn't quite as good if you plow into a basic unit like ork boyz with it but once you hit a posse of specialist troops that have power weapons etc you'll be happy.

Yeah FNP is now very useful just a little harder to pull off. But that extara times you get to use it propbably make it far more viable.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:

I think he was talking about the instant death rule where things get slain outright by weapons whose strength are double your toughness, after available saves were taken of course i.e. Invulnearable. A Lascannon does not instant kill a toughness 5 model anyway. Neither under previous rules or under these rules.

In 5th Lascannons IDed T4(5) Plague Marines. Now they do not.

BETTER

So did Krak missiles and Battlecannons.

Grey Templar wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:

I think he was talking about the instant death rule where things get slain outright by weapons whose strength are double your toughness, after available saves were taken of course i.e. Invulnearable. A Lascannon does not instant kill a toughness 5 model anyway. Neither under previous rules or under these rules.

In 5th Lascannons IDed T4(5) Plague Marines. Now they do not.

BETTER

So did Krak missiles and Battlecannons.

Yesh I use to just blast FNP stuff with my ML's x 15, now I do not know what to do lol. Maybe still blast them and hope they roll a 4 or less.

I like it actually, feels like I'm actually able to do something to my friends army. I start shooting or swing with my orks, throwing buckets of dice and he might lose 1 guy "maybe". Extreme example I know but it does seem to happen to me a lot. I roll really well, start smiling " take 20 wounds". Ah failed armor saves "yessss die blood angels". O waaiiit feel no pain so sorry. Darth vader face. "nooooo"

Has resulted in some extremely funny games. FNP does feel like the ultimate troll at times.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:16% loss in effectiveness over a gain against 80% of the weapons that were fired at them. Sounds like a buff to me.

Careful your knee doesn't get dislocated with all that jerking, OP.

+1, QFT

LordOfTheSloths wrote:But don't you know? Different is always good! It's all rainbows and unicorns and puppies now that things are "slightly" different!

Makes about as much sense. And I just love the way a certain percentage of overly zealous GW admirers trivialize dissent while imagining that snarkiness and lemming-like devotion somehow makes them look cool and with it.

But to the main point: once again, GW makes a change for the worse in some feature, then thinks that by making it worse but usable in more situations that it's all good. Please.

This.

While I'm not gonna say it's a solid nerf, or buff, it's all in perspective. As a DE where everything can ID us, and we never had the worry that someone may direct some serious AT fire on our infantry hoping to bring a model down, it's definitely a nerf for us. But on the other hand, I can see how it's a buff for MEq, people would have to divert their AT guns to your infantry to take away your FNP.

It'll just be a bit sad if the 4+ -> 5+ change was made with the intention to nerf FNP marines, but ended up nerfing the more fragile armies who rely on FNP to survive while actually buffing the marines. But who knows what their intentions were!

blood guard26 wrote:I cant believe they nerfed feel no pain, that was one of the best ways to ensure your cc units got into assault now it's basically a termie ++save

(The irony is that i had just ordered a whole lot of apothecaries to protect my assault marines and they get nerfed!)

They didn't nerf it, they changed it. Yeah, it's only a 5+ now, but you get it against AP1/2/power attacks unless it causes ID. The 4+ was wayyyy too reliable.

There weren't a lot of things in the ork codex that could get feel no pain, so this was good news for me