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To immigrate to the US, you have to be more determined than the average person. The legal immigration process is not an easy one. And the illegal immigration process is still difficult too.

I don't...I guess care would be the right word...about science fiction in general to read anything more than select authors so I'm sure there are many less popular/influential authors that I am not aware of. I know intellectually that there are minorities (in the sense of English speaking authors) who write and direct in the genre, but no one has emerged on par with the giants yet.

I almost think that young blacks with the potential to become great authors due to their skill with imagery, metaphors, etc, become great MCs instead.

I'd like to hear more about how Amaya knows what the black community knows, wants and desires. Apparently only white people like Chuck D, and all young black people are ignorant of all but a thin band of artists and individuals. Sure, blacks that aren't really black, like Twofer might know, but those 'pipe hitting [brothers]' are really ther representatives of the black community. You must be the king of the black people, with such insight and knowledge.



Also, you might not want to be the white guy using a quote referring to black men as [brother] unless you want to seem like an ignorant fool, and then compounding a it by quoting an 18 year old movie in a call for more contemporary examples.

 Ahtman wrote:
rabble rabble rabble

I love how you quit on arguments and turn everything into personal attacks.

Edit: How old are you Ahtman? I think you've probably lost touch with the younger generations. I would also love to know the last time you've had a conversation with a black male under 30 who's done time, sold drugs, has been on welfare, or experienced similar problems.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The difference is that the Middle Class can afford to be lazy, to a point. Thats almost the definition of "middle class", someone who has enough money to set aside for lesure but still has to work the majority of the time. Said work usually requires a college education and usually doesn't involve loads of hard labor. Exceptions exists of course, an industrial welder makes real good money, needs a degree of some sort, and is a laborious job.

No, that isn't the definition of middle class at all. It's a term with complex and diverse definitions, and none of them that I've ever seen have ever included laziness.

The lower class can't improve their lot and move into the middle class by being "lazy"

While noting we're talking very generally here, that's true.

But it leaves you with the argument that a middle class guy who takes the benefits of his parents social circumstances and lazily cruises through life landing in a middle class job just like his parents... then turns around and tells a poor person they're lazy because they haven't advanced above the circumstances they were born into.

It's self congratulating nonsense.

Its worth pointing out that there are MORE white people in the lower class then there are people of color.

Raw numbers are meaningless, because they're influenced more by the sheer numbers of white people than the actual ratios within economic groups. Black people are twice as likely to be below the poverty line as white people.

Enough time has passed to where the disadvantages caused by Slavery arn't an excuse anymore.

Except that wealth and poverty both last for many generations. The Rockefellers and Kennedys today aren't among the richest people in the world because they just happen to be as hard working and smart as their parents, who just happened to be as smart and hard working as their parents. Most of their success comes from being born into the status, wealth and social advantages of having very wealthy parents.

In the very same way poverty lasts for generations as well.

Slavery isn't an excuse. It's simply what happened, and the socio-economic impacts of that are still felt today.

As much as I agree with the sentiment that a person shouldn't use their poor beginnings as an excuse, greater society cannot just pretend that such things aren't still a factor.

The very fact there are millions of white people in the lower class says that Slavery is not the cause of someone's poverty. Poverty is an undeniable fact of any society. There will always be poor people, if its not one reason its another.

The fact that black people are in poverty at a rate of about double that of white people says there's some other factor in place other than just 'some people are gonna be poor'.

The best you can do is alleviate the suffering, while not allowing free rides. Sure, the government can and should have welfare for those down on their luck. But I think they should work for their handout.

I agree entirely. I think putting conditions on welfare, and refocussing programs away from poverty relief and towards making people employable, productive members of society is absolutely the way to go.

Thing can even be organized at the state and federal levels. Able bodied men that are out of work can be bussed places to work on government projects like Highway construction, bridge building, land clearing, etc...

The problem here is that much of this work is done by heavy machinery. You can't just get any unemployed person and put them in a grader.

So what actually becomes an option is to put them through a training course in heavy machinery, with a job at the end of it on a road crew at minimum wage. At any point during their work they would be free to get a job with their new skills working for a higher wage.


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 Amaya wrote:
Edit: How old are you Ahtman? I think you've probably lost touch with the younger generations. I would also love to know the last time you've had a conversation with a black male under 30 who's done time, sold drugs, has been on welfare, or experienced similar problems.

Do you not see the problem here? Any black person that isn't knee deep in your ideas of black culture is dismissed as not really counting.

Here's the thing - the 2010 census in the US gives a socio-economic picture which just is not as simple as the impression you are giving. 27% of black people earn between $25k and $50k. 23% earn between $50k and $100k. 9% earn more than $100k. You don't get those kind of incomes among a group that just dreams of being sports stars and rappers.

You can make the case that among black people there is a group focusses on poor role models, as their paths to success are either improbable (sports stars) or downright anti-social (gangster rappers) but you can't make that claim for the black population as a whole. The numbers above are not the numbers you'd see for a group of failed sports stars and gangster rappers.

And then, once you recognise it only matches with a minority of the black population, and that population is largely born into poorer economic circumstances, it isn't hard to realise the same issue exists among white kids born into poor economic circumstances.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Stephen Barnes is a reasonably well-known black sci-fi author. I think you'd like him.

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But yeah, most of the people who are influential in popular culture are actors and artists of various kinds. That's what STD said- "influence on popular culture".

StD wrote:I'm not arguing that there aren't Black intellectuals and scientists. I'm arguing that, for the most part, they don't influence young people's decisions a 100th as much as athletes and rappers do.

Yeah, no shocker. How many white or asian (or whatever) intellectuals and scientists can you name who influence ANY teenager's decisions 100th as much as athletes, rappers, and other celebrities and entertainers do?
.

True. This thread is about finding an explanation for the difference between Black Americans and immigrated Africans though. It's got nothing to do with the differences in White/Black/Asian cultures. That was Aht's assumption.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
True. This thread is about finding an explanation for the difference between Black Americans and immigrated Africans though. It's got nothing to do with the differences in White/Black/Asian cultures. That was Aht's assumption.

It seems odd to assign assumption to what you believe I meant when it seems you can't even get across what you mean. You are the one that blamed the black community for only wanting to be pro-athletes, gangsta rappers, or welfare recipients and went on to say they disdain education.

 sebster wrote:

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 Amaya wrote:
Edit: How old are you Ahtman? I think you've probably lost touch with the younger generations. I would also love to know the last time you've had a conversation with a black male under 30 who's done time, sold drugs, has been on welfare, or experienced similar problems.

Do you not see the problem here? Any black person that isn't knee deep in your ideas of black culture is dismissed as not really counting.

Here's the thing - the 2010 census in the US gives a socio-economic picture which just is not as simple as the impression you are giving. 27% of black people earn between $25k and $50k. 23% earn between $50k and $100k. 9% earn more than $100k. You don't get those kind of incomes among a group that just dreams of being sports stars and rappers.

You can make the case that among black people there is a group focusses on poor role models, as their paths to success are either improbable (sports stars) or downright anti-social (gangster rappers) but you can't make that claim for the black population as a whole. The numbers above are not the numbers you'd see for a group of failed sports stars and gangster rappers.

And then, once you recognise it only matches with a minority of the black population, and that population is largely born into poorer economic circumstances, it isn't hard to realise the same issue exists among white kids born into poor economic circumstances.

I'm really sick of people talking about context and then completely ignoring it. I am not discussing all blacks in America. I am discussing a specific group, the young and poor located in the south.
It is a very large group by that census's own admittance, 100-(27+23+9) = 41.

 Ahtman wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
True. This thread is about finding an explanation for the difference between Black Americans and immigrated Africans though. It's got nothing to do with the differences in White/Black/Asian cultures. That was Aht's assumption.

It seems odd to assign assumption to what you believe I meant when it seems you can't even get across what you mean.

I'm sorry to have assumed you'd read the thread title.

You are the one that blamed the black community for only wanting to be pro-athletes, gangsta rappers, or welfare recipients and went on to say they disdain education.

Can you point out to me where I said it wasn't so in other communities? We're talking about the difference in native and immigrant thought processes (in case I need to remind you so my point is understandable.).

 Amaya wrote:
It's called an apprenticeship Dogma.

Apprenticeships are extremely rare, having been replaced by pay as you go vocational training for the most part*, and the majority of the apprenticeships that do exist are confined to the construction industry; which presents obvious problems in the present market over and above that sort of single-sector method of education.

This isn't to say its impossible to develop trade skills working in minimum wage equivalent positions (Though no vocational program is actually minimum wage.), its just far more difficult (And less likely.) than other methods of advancement.



*Some high schools also offer vocational coursework either directly, or through exchange programs with a community college. But, if your high school doesn't do this, you're out of luck.


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 Amaya wrote:

And your little list is great, it really is, you just listed a bunch of people that have a bigger white following or are no longer a major influence.

Lil'Wayne, Jay-Z, 50 Cent, Biggie, Tupac, Nas, and similar artists are all bigger influences on black teenagers then anyone you listed with the possible exception of Denzel Washington.

I imagine that your list also has a much larger following among white Americans, and further that white athletes, artists and actors have a greater cultural influence than white academics.

I mean, if I say the name "Saul Kripke" do you know who he is? Probably not, but he's one of the foremost logicians on the planet. The same applies to Alexander Wendt, Robert Keohane, Andrew Moravcsik, Benoit Mandelbrot, and Mitchell Feigenbaum in their respective fields.

Hell, I imagine most teenagers, regardless of race, couldn't name even relatively famous academics like Richards Dawkins, Sam Harris, or Fareed Zakaria.

 Amaya wrote:

 sebster wrote:

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 Amaya wrote:
Edit: How old are you Ahtman? I think you've probably lost touch with the younger generations. I would also love to know the last time you've had a conversation with a black male under 30 who's done time, sold drugs, has been on welfare, or experienced similar problems.

Do you not see the problem here? Any black person that isn't knee deep in your ideas of black culture is dismissed as not really counting.

Here's the thing - the 2010 census in the US gives a socio-economic picture which just is not as simple as the impression you are giving. 27% of black people earn between $25k and $50k. 23% earn between $50k and $100k. 9% earn more than $100k. You don't get those kind of incomes among a group that just dreams of being sports stars and rappers.

You can make the case that among black people there is a group focusses on poor role models, as their paths to success are either improbable (sports stars) or downright anti-social (gangster rappers) but you can't make that claim for the black population as a whole. The numbers above are not the numbers you'd see for a group of failed sports stars and gangster rappers.

And then, once you recognise it only matches with a minority of the black population, and that population is largely born into poorer economic circumstances, it isn't hard to realise the same issue exists among white kids born into poor economic circumstances.

I'm really sick of people talking about context and then completely ignoring it. I am not discussing all blacks in America. I am discussing a specific group, the young and poor located in the south.
It is a very large group by that census's own admittance, 100-(27+23+9) = 41.

Yeah, I assumed we were past having to specify what we meant when we said "african americans"

Those african americans that are making >$25k are year are those that arn't being held back. Lets talk about the 41% that are stuck in the lower class.

They are the ones who will not have proper role models or the drive needed to improve their lot. Being poor is a self-continuing situation, but only if nothing is done to attempt to change it.

Now if the very people who are stuck in the rut arn't trying to change their circumstances, why should the government come in to help and play favorites with the poor who arn't even motivated to help themselves?

I speak in generalities. There are poor people who are trying their darndest to get ahead, but for every one of those there are a couple of slackers whose only ambition is to sit on the couch, eat, sleep, get high/drunk, and reproduce.

 dogma wrote:



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 Amaya wrote:

And your little list is great, it really is, you just listed a bunch of people that have a bigger white following or are no longer a major influence.

Lil'Wayne, Jay-Z, 50 Cent, Biggie, Tupac, Nas, and similar artists are all bigger influences on black teenagers then anyone you listed with the possible exception of Denzel Washington.

I imagine that your list also has a much larger following among white Americans, and further that white athletes, artists and actors have a greater cultural influence than white academics.


Hell, I imagine most teenagers, regardless of race, couldn't name even relatively famous academics like Richards Dawkins, Sam Harris, or Fareed Zakaria.

Why are you comparing totals to percentages?

 Amaya wrote:

Why are you comparing totals to percentages?

You didn't mention anything about percentages, and to the extent that you might have intended to it was in a sense that was amorphous and anecdotal. The larger point of my contention being that athletes, artists, and actors have a much greater impact on popular culture than any other category of public figure, regardless of their racial origin.

And, if you want to talk about popularity by racial category, I think the only artist you mentioned who is demonstrably more popular among African Americans is Lil'Wayne. When he actually was popular 50 Cent was a major icon of pop culture, while Biggie, Tupac, Nas, and Jay-Z remain so to this day; especially Jay-Z and Nas. Of course, it helps that the latter two aren't dead.

Strictly anecdotal, but I have encountered very, very few young black males who disliked rap. By comparison, there are many young white males who openly hate rap (especially on the internet) or only listen to very select artists. I don't think that it is a stretch by any means to suggest that the percentage wise the number of young black male fans of rap is double or triple that of their white counterparts.

By default, the odds are that any rapper/MC has a greater impact (percentage wise) on the black community than s/he does on the white community. There are of course a handful of artists, that blacks simply do not listen to at all. A good example of that would probably be someone like Hopsin, who, based on his shows, has a massive white following and minimal black fan base.

 Amaya wrote:
Strictly anecdotal, but I have encountered very, very few young black males who disliked rap. By comparison, there are many young white males who openly hate rap (especially on the internet) or only listen to very select artists. I don't think that it is a stretch by any means to suggest that the percentage wise the number of young black male fans of rap is double or triple that of their white counterparts.

I know quite a few, though they tend to be better educated or well off economically. Conversely, I know very few well educated, economically prosperous young white males that don't like rap.

I'm specifically referring to those in the bottom 41%. Where are you located at? Maybe the white hate for rap is just a Texas thing.

My guess would be that Texas doesn't like Rap in general, and the White community in general down south doesn't like Rap either.

Educated whites probably listen to Rap because its different then what they normally do.

I like a good chinka chinka band.

 Amaya wrote:
I'm specifically referring to those in the bottom 41%. Where are you located at? Maybe the white hate for rap is just a Texas thing.

Well above that, though even thinking back to high school rap was no more or less popular than any other type of music. The only kids I remember being vehemently opposed to it were hardcore metal fans, which tended to be similarly dislike my people who were heavily into rap, while both groups hated country. Of course, the hate for country probably has a lot to do with growing up in the Chicago area.


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 Grey Templar wrote:

Educated whites probably listen to Rap because its different then what they normally do.

I suspect it has more to with being willing to separate the music itself from any cultural ties it may have. Though there are also plenty of people in academia that will tell you that listening to rap makes you some kind of oppressor by way of co-opting the experience of a minority group.

I just ignore wierd philosophical crap like that.

Chicago probably produces higher quality rap than the entire south put together as well. Common, Chali 2na, Kanye West, and Lupe Fiasco makes for a pretty solid lineup.

The South is not known for rap. We're known for blues and R&B.

And Gumbo

 Frazzled wrote:
The South is not known for rap. We're known for blues and R&B.

And crunk and snap.

Trying to think of good/decent southern artists.

9th Wonder (DJ, worked with Murs)
Outkast
Geto Boys
Chamillionaire
Big KRIT
BoB
Jay Electronica

And that's about it...

Elvis.........
Three Doors Down....

I didn't realize Elvis was a rapper.

Of course he was, the original in fact. Everyone else just got it wrong

 Amaya wrote:
I didn't realize Elvis was a rapper.

That man prolly could if he wanted.

Didn't he start out as a gospel singer?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
True. This thread is about finding an explanation for the difference between Black Americans and immigrated Africans though. It's got nothing to do with the differences in White/Black/Asian cultures. That was Aht's assumption.

The difference between African immigrants and Black americans was sorted within the first half of the first page. Middle class is middle class, poor is poor. That issue is done.

That led into a greater conversation on why poverty led to more poverty, to which it was suggested that stereotypically black cultural elements are the primary driver. Which has been debated since then, in a roundabout kind of way.


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 Amaya wrote:
I'm really sick of people talking about context and then completely ignoring it. I am not discussing all blacks in America. I am discussing a specific group, the young and poor located in the south.

Well, the context is slavetodorkness commenting directly on 'black culture', and you coming in to comment on the same side, without ever really differentiating your position from the one slavetodorkness was making. I've read back through your posts and fair enough that you were talking about poverty in general, but I should point out you never really made it clear you were talking about poverty in general.

It is a very large group by that census's own admittance, 100-(27+23+9) = 41.

Absolutely, and the level of poverty within any ethnic group should be unacceptable to any wealthy society. My point is that solving that issue won't come through making broad generalisations about that ethnic group as a whole, when the real picture is so much more complicated than that.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, I assumed we were past having to specify what we meant when we said "african americans"

Those african americans that are making >$25k are year are those that arn't being held back. Lets talk about the 41% that are stuck in the lower class.

They are the ones who will not have proper role models or the drive needed to improve their lot. Being poor is a self-continuing situation, but only if nothing is done to attempt to change it.

Now if the very people who are stuck in the rut arn't trying to change their circumstances, why should the government come in to help and play favorites with the poor who arn't even motivated to help themselves?

I speak in generalities. There are poor people who are trying their darndest to get ahead, but for every one of those there are a couple of slackers whose only ambition is to sit on the couch, eat, sleep, get high/drunk, and reproduce.

No, you speak in terms of blame, and that's basically just a wrong headed view to the issue. Take out the personal judgement and look at the issue in terms of what is best for you, and for everyone as a whole - right now because of the circumstances they were born into a lot of people are likely to unproductive or minimally productive members of society, and they in turn are likely to produce children who are just as minimally productive. Programs that can end that cycle mean reduced social welfare expenditure and increased tax revenue, which is good for everyone else as that means less tax burden for the rest to pay.

And yeah, it is about helping those who'd help themselves. Which is exactly why programs should be targetted towards skills improvement and the like.


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 Amaya wrote:
Trying to think of good/decent southern artists.

9th Wonder (DJ, worked with Murs)
Outkast
Geto Boys
Chamillionaire
Big KRIT
BoB
Jay Electronica

And that's about it...

Wait, Chamillionaire is considered good? I mean, I'm not having a go here because rap is one of those things I basically just don't get, but I thought he was a punchline to jokes?

I think the fact they don't value education and have poor role models is a problem. Trying to make it as a rapper in a massively over saturated market, superstar athlete or dealing are not acceptable choices. The question becomes, why are those the only choices? It's the product of a welfare state. A lot of people will not work to get off of that unless they are in a culture that values work ethic. Even though a lot of these guys get into their 20s and bust their asses then, they're still screwed by lack of education, trade skills, or criminal record.

It honestly pisses me off, because I've known these guys who will work hard, hell maybe ever harder than me and I had the whole German work ethic crap practically beat into me, but they're just spinning in the mud for those reasons. I can't even begin to imagine how much of a struggle it must be to be still living at your mom's, have no HS diploma, trying to work 50+ hour weeks, get a GED and be in your mid to late 20s. Unless you're mentally tough as hell that's got to wear you down.

There is no easy answer as to how to implement change and I don't if change is even possible without confronting the ghetto culture. When I say the ghetto culture I am not referring to black culture or the hip hop culture. They may all be intertwined in a fashion, but the ghetto culture is obsessed with "keeping it real", gang banging, making easy money, tribal/racial hatred (gangs and racial conflicts between blacks, hispanics, asians, and whites), and does not value education, work ethic or women. It is overly pervasive and a negative influence that a lot of rappers/MCs are contributing to even if that is not their intent.


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Chamillionaire is 100 times better than the typical crap that gets played on SA hip hop stations.