Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A few others have issues - choosing red, blue etc, which all show up better, is not an imposition.

Remember mobile devices used outside struggle with lighter colours.

Thank you, i'll definately take your entirely unsolicited opinion under advisement. However we have wandered rather further afield of the original topic here...

Sorry for butting in here, I just skimmed the previous pages but saw this on miniwargaming too and it got me going.

Here is my argument, it's pretty simple, for why the death ray can't shoot at other flyers.

1. In the rules for snap shots (pg 13) it says weapons that have certain special rules (such as blast or ordnance) can't fire as snap shots. Also on pg. 13 in the same paragraph it notes that any attack which does not use a ballistic skill cannot be fired as a snap shot, that is perfectly clear. There is also nothing in the rules for death ray that mentions using a ballistic skill.

2. In the rules for flyers 'hard to hit' (pg.81) its says in bold; shots taken against flyers can ONLY be resolved as a snap shot. If it's not a snap shot, it can't hit a flyer, period. It goes on to mention blast weapons and templates can also not hit flyers.

3. In the rules for skyfire (pg 42), it only gives permission to shoot at your normal ballistic skill. That is all. It does not give permission for weapons with template or special rules to fire. It does not negate or take away the 'hard to hit' characteristic.

So there you have it... only snap shots may be taken... weapons with special rules may not be snap shots... having a normal ballistic skill from skyfire is irrelevant... therefore a flyer may not be hit with the weapon.

Meade the only flaw in your argument is, while you cannot normally Snap Shot weapons that don't rely on BS, you can still use them against fliers if they have Skyfire.

Blasts and templates however cannot add they are specified as not being able to hit fliers.

 Meade wrote:
Sorry for butting in here, I just skimmed the previous pages but saw this on miniwargaming too and it got me going.

Here is my argument, it's pretty simple, for why the death ray can't shoot at other flyers.

1. In the rules for snap shots (pg 13) it says weapons that have certain special rules (such as blast or ordnance) can't fire as snap shots. Also on pg. 13 in the same paragraph it notes that any attack which does not use a ballistic skill cannot be fired as a snap shot, that is perfectly clear. There is also nothing in the rules for death ray that mentions using a ballistic skill.

2. In the rules for flyers 'hard to hit' (pg.81) its says in bold; shots taken against flyers can ONLY be resolved as a snap shot. If it's not a snap shot, it can't hit a flyer, period. It goes on to mention blast weapons and templates can also not hit flyers.

3. In the rules for skyfire (pg 42), it only gives permission to shoot at your normal ballistic skill. That is all. It does not give permission for weapons with template or special rules to fire. It does not negate or take away the 'hard to hit' characteristic.

So there you have it... only snap shots may be taken... weapons with special rules may not be snap shots... having a normal ballistic skill from skyfire is irrelevant... therefore a flyer may not be hit with the weapon.

You're forgetting something very important here. The Hard To Hit rule says (unless the model or weapon has the skyfire special rule). So if it has skyfire, it negates hard to hit completely.

The skyfire rule stating that they can fire using their full ballistic skill is denoting basically that it's not a "snap shot" at that point. And yes, while the snap shot rule does only have examples of weapon types listed that can't fire as snap shots, there is still nothing in the rules stating that the death ray (which is really no weapon 'type' other than Heavy 1) can't hit a flyer using skyfire.

So, you're saying you can't hit a flyer at all with the death ray, I say you HAVE to skyfire with it but cannot hit any non-flyer/FMC/Skimmer with it in the same turn.

 Kevin949 wrote:


You're forgetting something very important here. The Hard To Hit rule says (unless the model or weapon has the skyfire special rule). So if it has skyfire, it negates hard to hit completely.

The skyfire rule stating that they can fire using their full ballistic skill is denoting basically that it's not a "snap shot" at that point. And yes, while the snap shot rule does only have examples of weapon types listed that can't fire as snap shots, there is still nothing in the rules stating that the death ray (which is really no weapon 'type' other than Heavy 1) can't hit a flyer using skyfire.

So, you're saying you can't hit a flyer at all with the death ray, I say you HAVE to skyfire with it but cannot hit any non-flyer/FMC/Skimmer with it in the same turn.

In other words, you are saying "if the model has skyfire, shots can be resolved in any manner possible besides blast, template, and large blast, or use full BS".

All that skyfire says is that the model may use it's full BS. If a shot cannot be resolved as a snap shot, there is no exception to the rule to begin with. It simply wouldn't be shot.

Lets take the rule that is being contested: "Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots". Unless... It has skyfire. In which case, "Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved using the model's normal BS" (my own words, but essentially what GW is saying).

That does not include weapons that don't fire using a ballistic skill.

If you want to play it your way, go ahead. There are very few texts on earth that can't be twisted according to weird interpretations. That's why lawyers get paid the money they do.

GW has done a fine job on these rules, IMO. In this case, they have made a lot of effort to show their intentions. They have put no effort into explaining how special weapons that don't use a BS can hit flyers, and every thing they could do to say the opposite, in order to make a ruleset that's hard to abuse.

 Meade wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:


You're forgetting something very important here. The Hard To Hit rule says (unless the model or weapon has the skyfire special rule). So if it has skyfire, it negates hard to hit completely.

The skyfire rule stating that they can fire using their full ballistic skill is denoting basically that it's not a "snap shot" at that point. And yes, while the snap shot rule does only have examples of weapon types listed that can't fire as snap shots, there is still nothing in the rules stating that the death ray (which is really no weapon 'type' other than Heavy 1) can't hit a flyer using skyfire.

So, you're saying you can't hit a flyer at all with the death ray, I say you HAVE to skyfire with it but cannot hit any non-flyer/FMC/Skimmer with it in the same turn.

In other words, you are saying "if the model has skyfire, shots can be resolved in any manner possible besides blast, template, and large blast, or use full BS".

All that skyfire says is that the model may use it's full BS. If a shot cannot be resolved as a snap shot, there is no exception to the rule to begin with. It simply wouldn't be shot.

Lets take the rule that is being contested: "Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots". Unless... It has skyfire. In which case, "Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved using the model's normal BS" (my own words, but essentially what GW is saying).

That does not include weapons that don't fire using a ballistic skill.

If you want to play it your way, go ahead. There are very few texts on earth that can't be twisted according to weird interpretations. That's why lawyers get paid the money they do.

GW has done a fine job on these rules, IMO. In this case, they have made a lot of effort to show their intentions. They have put no effort into explaining how special weapons that don't use a BS can hit flyers, and every thing they could do to say the opposite, in order to make a ruleset that's hard to abuse.

Well, first off, you can't use your own words because that's not what it says. Your statement adds a restriction that does not exist.
Skyfire essentially negates the snap shot restriction of hard to hit. Using your "normal ballistic skill" would include the ability to hit flyers with weapons that don't roll to-hit as with skyfire you're no longer "resolving" as a snap shot nor are you "firing" as a snap shot against flying things. The only time ballistic skill comes into play is when you are resolving a snap shot and that states weapons that don't use BS can't fire as a snap shot (which also means they can't resolve as one). And you're not doing that if you're skyfiring.

Ya, I agree that they haven't made it very clear on this stuff. Look at the blood lance and lord of storms talks. You can play it how you want as well, but it's still a rule written for 5th edition that didn't technically include flyers yet. why they didn't FAQ it already, I'll never understand. You'd think, being the ones that write and publish the rules, they'd have thought about auto-hitting weapons/abilities and flyers. *Ugh*

 Kevin949 wrote:

Well, first off, you can't use your own words because that's not what it says. Your statement adds a restriction that does not exist.

It says 'unless', and a sentence in parentheses. 'Unless' Implies the logical sentence, '...resolved at a moving flyer can only be snap shots, unless it has skyfire...' Then what? Then everything goes out the window? That part is not said.

It's just the language. They put that sentence in parentheses because they are reminding you of something, that the only case where the shots are not snap shots, is when the very specific rule of skyfire lets you fire them at full ballistic skill. Not sure how else to say it.

They are not saying, blah blah blah, unless it has skyfire, then everything goes out the window. They assume you know what skyfire means, that it only allows you to make shots at full ballistic skill in this case. The sentence is just there to remind you of that, but people read into it something completely different.

Ya, I agree that they haven't made it very clear on this stuff. Look at the blood lance and lord of storms talks. You can play it how you want as well, but it's still a rule written for 5th edition that didn't technically include flyers yet. why they didn't FAQ it already, I'll never understand. You'd think, being the ones that write and publish the rules, they'd have thought about auto-hitting weapons/abilities and flyers. *Ugh*

Honestly, I can't really disagree much. They should answer questions like this. However, they took the time on page 13, to explain what can be taken as a snap shot and what can't be. It was done rather well. Too bad they didn't rewrite the whole paragraph again on pg. 81.

Not "full ballistic skill", "normal ballistic skill". And what is otherwise normal ballistic skill for a death ray? That's right, getting to shoot at all. *Shrug*

 Kevin949 wrote:
Not "full ballistic skill", "normal ballistic skill". And what is otherwise normal ballistic skill for a death ray? That's right, getting to shoot at all. *Shrug*

fine, normal ballistic skill it says. The death ray does not fire using a ballistic skill. This is clearly the intention behind the snap fire rules, as you can see on pg 13, weapons that don't use a ballistic skill, or any other special rules, can't fire snap shots period.

I still don't think you're taking into account that hard to hit is bypassed by skyfire, even though the skyfire rule says they can use normal ballistic, the hard to hit rule says "Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots (unless the model or weapon fired has the skyfire rule)." That second bit there, basically tells you to to ignore the first bit, regardless to what the skyfire rule says, if you have skyfire you don't resolve shots at a flyer as a snap shot. The only reason template/blast weapons would NEVER be able to hit a flyer is because their exception comes AFTER that bit.

he thing that gives me trouble is, skyfire rule does not say flat out, "model can shoot at flyers as normal". Nor does it say, "models ignore the effects of Hard to Hit rule". It specifically says that the model may shoot using it's full ballistic skill. The hard to hit rule is still in effect, with its rules that disallow templates and such.

If that were the spirit of skyfire, to allow special weapons that don't use a ballistic skill to shoot at flyers, then why not just say that in the skyfire rule... why not specifically say that. And why does the hard to hit rule specifically point out that the weapons that don't use ballistic skill, the templates and blasts, still cannot hit flyers.

That's because the rules are the same as for snap fire, but they just neglected to word it right and be comprehensive like they were on pg. 13. The flyer rules were probably written more hastily or had less error-control for some reason, same with the rules for buildings.

Skyfire says that, yes, but hard to hit says you resolve as a snap unless the model or weapon has skyfire. So the only question that should really be asked is, does the model have skyfire (yes/no?). If yes, no limitations. If no, resolve as snap shot.

Until it's FAQ'd though, we could go in this circle until we're blue in the face (or fingers, I guess). So no real point continuing on, just play how you think is right or discuss with your opponent pre-game. My group, personally, has no problems allowing me to play it how it do as we all agree on the intentions of the rules. If an FAQ/Errata changes that, well then I guess I'll just have to live with it.

Q: Can a Doom Scythe’s death ray hit enemy Flyers and/or Flying
Monstrous Creatures? (p50)
A: The Death Ray can hit Flyers in Hover Mode (friendly or
enemy) and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures (friendly or
enemy). It cannot hit Zooming Flyers or Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creatures.

From todays update FAQs.

Death Ray cannot hit Swooping FMC or Zooming Flyers, per the new FAQ. Discuss.

Automatic hits now hit automatically with Snap Shots.

Well, so be it. *Shrug*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
Automatic hits now hit automatically with Snap Shots.

It then goes on to say -
Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

I guess that (Necron FAQ update) answers that, at least with regard to shooting at other fliers.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Death Ray cannot hit Swooping FMC or Zooming Flyers, per the new FAQ. Discuss.

?? Question answered. What's to discuss?

 Neorealist wrote:
I guess that (Necron FAQ update) answers that, at least with regard to shooting at other fliers.

Yup.

So now, the death ray either shoots at ground units or not at all. Wonderful....even MORE of a reason to just take a night scythe and save 75 points. *Sigh*

Told you so... They just put the wrong language into the flyer rules... did not make it clear enough when they wrote the book.

 Meade wrote:
Told you so... They just put the wrong language into the flyer rules... did not make it clear enough when they wrote the book.

Well I guess you can be that guy. So, way to act mature about it. *Shrug*

Anyway, as I said before, it is what it is. I'm disappointed but oh well. More of a reason to not take it as my answer to opposing flyers.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
I guess that (Necron FAQ update) answers that, at least with regard to shooting at other fliers.

Yup.

So now, the death ray either shoots at ground units or not at all. Wonderful....even MORE of a reason to just take a night scythe and save 75 points. *Sigh*

To be fair, the Doomscythe can still shoot flyers, but only with the Tesla Annihilator (which is a kick-a** AA gun anyway)

*cough Tesla Destructor cough* (i agree with your assessment of it though)

 Praxiss wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
I guess that (Necron FAQ update) answers that, at least with regard to shooting at other fliers.

Yup.

So now, the death ray either shoots at ground units or not at all. Wonderful....even MORE of a reason to just take a night scythe and save 75 points. *Sigh*

To be fair, the Doomscythe can still shoot flyers, but only with the Tesla Annihilator (which is a kick-a** AA gun anyway)

Oh I agree, but being even more limited now is more of a reason to just take the night scythe and use the 75 points on more boots on the ground. Or halfway to buying a triarch stalker with a TL heavy gauss that won't fly off the board and is there the whole game, if not blown up, and has more utility for the rest of the army. Or really just anything else...

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Meade wrote:
Told you so... They just put the wrong language into the flyer rules... did not make it clear enough when they wrote the book.

Well I guess you can be that guy. So, way to act mature about it. *Shrug*

Anyway, as I said before, it is what it is. I'm disappointed but oh well. More of a reason to not take it as my answer to opposing flyers.

Oh, looking it over I was wrong about some things myself... just not this. I'm only happy it came out. And my daemons are happy.

 Meade wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Meade wrote:
Told you so... They just put the wrong language into the flyer rules... did not make it clear enough when they wrote the book.

Well I guess you can be that guy. So, way to act mature about it. *Shrug*

Anyway, as I said before, it is what it is. I'm disappointed but oh well. More of a reason to not take it as my answer to opposing flyers.

Oh, looking it over I was wrong about some things myself... just not this. I'm only happy it came out. And my daemons are happy.

Ya, lots of changes/clarifications that I'm happy and upset about. Hah. Oh well, moving on now.