Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Matt, thanks for popping in to say your piece. While I appreciate the perspective, I do still stand by my frustrations with Mongoose and the way they have conducted themselves in the past. While not as "passionate" as Grot 6, I also choose to spend my money elsewhere and with a more reliable company.

I had convinced my FLGS to carry Starship Trooper and, when it FINALLY arrived, convinced many local players to buy into it. Even running demos of the game using my own models. It wasn't long before the line went sour: the model designs were amateur, the releases were sporadic or unavailable. It was frustrating and embarassing since my support of your product caused others to spend their money to do the same. Never again. To this day I can't convince my FLGS to take a chance on any new games. So now what do I do? Sit on the sidelines hoping a new game takes off like Warmachine or order from internet retailers at the expense of removing my revenue from my FLGS ? All because of Mongoose' actions.

Additionally, opinion also comes from a customer service stand point. I had e-mailed Mongoose about my concerns for SST releases timing and I mentioned the crap cast that the SST Brain Bug was and what a horrible model it was to assemble since it was produced and parted so amateurishly. What I received back was a surly, rude and condescending response that solidified that I would never deal with the company again. That lack of professionalism from a key individual spoke volumes and, irregardless of licensing issues, was shown not to be an isolated incident.

So that's my experience and reasoning. Other's MMV and that's fine. I would just hate to see good money pledged to a company with a poor track record vaporise with nothing to show for it. Or for pledgers to be frustrated with endless delays and lip-service that Mongoose has shown in the past.

Trust is earned. It takes years to build and seconds to break. Maybe this Kickstarter will help Mongoose restore a measure of the market trust and shed some of the negative impressions. Good luck.

 Myrthe wrote:
It was frustrating and embarassing since my support of your product caused others to spend their money to do the same. Never again. To this day I can't convince my FLGS to take a chance on any new games. So now what do I do? Sit on the sidelines hoping a new game takes off like Warmachine or order from internet retailers at the expense of removing my revenue from my FLGS ? All because of Mongoose' actions.

While I agree with your sentiments about trust having to be earned, you could still special order untested through your FLGS. As long as you actually pay for them when they arrive and don't try to convince the owner or other players to invest in the new and unproven game, you'd be the only one risking anything and you're still supporting your local store. Its the tactic that I've gone with for Heavy Gear which, while long term and tested, simply has failed to gain any traction in my area despite my best efforts. As for the email, you might want to post it here (with any private email addresses erased so you don't get spammed by spider bots) as Matt seems to be trying to address things openly and in a very even keeled manner.

 warboss wrote:

While I agree with your sentiments about trust having to be earned, you could still special order untested through your FLGS. As long as you actually pay for them when they arrive and don't try to convince the owner or other players to invest in the new and unproven game, you'd be the only one risking anything and you're still supporting your local store. Its the tactic that I've gone with for Heavy Gear which, while long term and tested, simply has failed to gain any traction in my area despite my best efforts. As for the email, you might want to post it here (with any private email addresses erased so you don't get spammed by spider bots) as Matt seems to be trying to address things openly and in a very even keeled manner.

True, and I have asked my FLGS to special order some items. Special Orders are just not a priority for them since they were burned in the past and left holding useless product that no one wanted any more. Now THAT isn't Mongoose's fault, entirely, but they certainly contributed to the owner being EXTREMELY cautious. We've had conversations about it and how he looses sales but he'd rather not take chances. And he doesn't want to do a "pay-up-front" policy, either. Again, MONGOOSE isn't the sole reason for his scars, but they did give him quite a few.

As far as the e-mail. That was years and years ago and is long gone. I'm just relating my experience FWIW. I do recall who I was in contact with but will not share that.

And, again, Matt, I do appreciate you joining and contributing to the discussion here. It's given new insight and, for me, a new appreciation and perspective of Mongoose "history". While I may still be frustrated with my past Mongoose experience, I am impressed with your candor and hope that it is reflective of the way Mongoose is now conducting their business.

MongooseMatt wrote:

 English Assassin wrote:
Secondly - and more importantly - this whole saga begins to look rather more like a lesson in the perils of licensed games. Can anybody actually think of a wargame, RPG or CCG licensed from a prominent franchise that has lasted for a significant time and is still ongoing? The successive launches and collapses of those based on Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, Doctor Who and both the DC and Marvel universes - many of which indeed bankrupted their publishers - strongly suggest to me that even comparatively cheap, niche franchises like Babylon 5 or Starship Troopers are doomed to be economically unfeasible, at least once the blaze of free publicity which accompanies a Hollywood film or whatever dissipates, as profits simply won't cover costs over an extended period.

This is a very good point, and one we have spent a long, long time looking at.

On the whole, I think they are worthwhile - but you have to take the right approach and, importantly, manage expectations. If we do something like this again, we will make sure everything you _absolutely_ need to play the game comes out in the first wave of releases, and we will let people know the game is not likely to be around forever. Take B5, for example - we ran it as if it was always going to be there, and we were fortunate that we managed to do just about everything (aside from a few minor League fleets) that anyone could ever want. Right now, people still play the game and run tournaments, because it was complete. The same argument could be made about SST, if your primary interest was in MI and bugs (and that might have been a mistake, making the game about more than just those two sides - we were trying to make it another 40k, and that was probably a leap too far).

The key, I think, is to set things up so anyone can get everything they absolutely need early on, and then run the line with an intended termination point - if you get a renewal, great, take things from there, but don't count on it happening.

In any case, I do believe all of that is better than the rip-off miniatures (the not-B5, the not-Star Trek, etc models) that float around. They really don't do anyone any good, especially those of us who do choose to play by the rules (I say rules - it is called the law).

That's a very sensible - and indeed honest - attitude to take. As a fan of Judge Dredd who had hitherto paid little attention to Mongoose's game, I'll take a punt on the Kickstarter when it comes along.

Zond wrote:
As this was your last major release, will you be making any changes the manner in which you distribute models or in the way you handle defective casts?

Already done it. The vast majority of Dredd models are metal, and we have no issues there. If you happen to get a miscast or mispack (rare but it happens), let us know, and a replacement will be on its way to you next day. Resin production has been completely rejigged and, more importantly, resin models are redesigned to cast specifically for resin casting.

 Empchild wrote:
@matt i didn't say twenty years i said outdated and old and in the hobby community ten years is outdated. Also you didnt discount B5 when you closed it at all. You guys just said "hey we have one month left not renewing. If you want it get it" . I get where many people are coming from on the screwed over bit but my response was your stuff is outdated and if your going to kickstarter then sculpt new models. You even admitted that they were old style so thank you for that. In the end to quote my old platoon daddy " one awe frak will ruin a thousand ata boyz".

Sorry, other chap was saying 20 years, but otherwise your points were similar. But models ten years old are outdated? I am not sure we would have to look far on, say, GW's site to find some models plenty older than ten years. Even easier on the sites of other companies that have been running that long (and I am now thinking about a company like Navwar, who has sculpts from the 60's!). As for the second bit, new models are being sculpted (Brit-Cit Judges, Walter, the Lawmaster, others we have not mentioned yet) but we also have a large number of models that either date back a few years to Gangs or have been sculpted in the past couple of years. I still feel the range is fresh enough without needlessly binning models that work perfectly well (Bobby Jckson did a lot of the original line, and I think his work still stands well today).

 Myrthe wrote:
I mentioned the crap cast that the SST Brain Bug was and what a horrible model it was to assemble since it was produced and parted so amateurishly. What I received back was a surly, rude and condescending response that solidified that I would never deal with the company again. That lack of professionalism from a key individual spoke volumes and, irregardless of licensing issues, was shown not to be an isolated incident.

I am _deeply_ sorry to hear that, and can assure you said person no longer works at Mongoose. This is really of great concern to me, partly because, on the strength of those comments, we _did_ change the casting of the Brain Bug.

At the end of the day, I am not sure I can do too much about the conduct of people no longer at Mongoose, except to assure you that things are not run like that these days.

Hi again -

Yes, I was the "other chap" and I stand corrected about the date of the models. Perhaps I was getting my Judge figures confused with another company's. Of course, the bars are set at different heights for different companies and one's models might stand the test of time and have a longer "shelf life" where another's, due to a dated sculpting style from the onset, would tend to look older.

At any rate, Matt, your presence here and your words have done quite a bit to thaw my cold opinion of Mongoose. I can no longer say "never" about dealing with them again and that is only as a result of your honest, measured and reasonable discourse here. Well done.

And good luck with the Kickstarter.

As much as I hate to say it, I have to agree with all the negative comments ref Mongoose and their ability to maintain a miniatures game.

Publishing is their strength (so I am told) but from personal experience supporting a model line is most definitely not.

As big a fan of Dredd, having read the comic + megazine for eons, I still won't support this kickstarter. I actually will not purchase anything until I see some traction in the market - unfortunately a bit chicken and egg I know. However, I am not going to have more mongoose models hidden in the back of my model cupboard unlikely to ever see the light of day.

All Mongoose has shown me is a proven ability to fail - and MongooseMatt, yes, I still remember your attempts to convince people that those horrendous prepaints were worth purchasing. The difference between what appeared for sale verse what was promised was night and day. Bigger bait and switch than the wolfen prepaints - and that is saying something.

@Matt:GW Though dates those and makes them OOP. Heck even Old Glory (which has been around longer then most of us here) have been updating. I am giving you more advice then criticism here as look at Fanticides kickstarter. I am fure had they had better models they would have gone much further then they have which is to bad as it's a great set of rules. By the sounds of it Mongoose has earned a bad wrap over the years and this could be either a great resurgence for you guys or a big flop. You are asking people to part with their money and just cause you think it's fresh doesn't mean it is. You are having to compete in a niche market in the hopes of getting our money. Take relic knights for example, normally I wouldn't shell out several hundred but they are producing some amazing quality products at good prices. The Judge Dredd has been done over and over and over by so many companys so if you are wanting to stand apart from them then step up a little. I have learned in business sitting on your laurels will only doom you to failure, and with a track record already of numerous bad products why not say "hrmm maybe we should try a different course this time".

MongooseMatt wrote:
Already done it. The vast majority of Dredd models are metal, and we have no issues there. If you happen to get a miscast or mispack (rare but it happens), let us know, and a replacement will be on its way to you next day. Resin production has been completely rejigged and, more importantly, resin models are redesigned to cast specifically for resin casting.

In my experience, specifically with poor book binding and my terrible Star Trek miniatures, I found it impossible to get any replacements despite numerous emails. I want you to succeed, especially if this opens the door to other products, but as many have said there are trust issues to overcome.

 fullheadofhair wrote:
I still remember your attempts to convince people that those horrendous prepaints were worth purchasing.

I actually agree with you, and apologise without reservation for that. Here is what happened behind the scenes...

In those days, I was responsible for all creative output for the company, not the day-to-day business. I had herded the BF Evo project for months, looking after everything from the rules to the design of the models themselves. It was going to be great. Then, I saw the first production models.

They were not what we had asked for (and, if you recall way back then, that was my first public reaction to them as well). I was all set to send them back and tell the factory to have another go. However, my then business partner had already pre-sold a whole bunch of sets to a whole bunch of distributors and he was under a great deal of pressure from them to deliver. We sat down and talked about them, and he put forward the proposition that they were not bad at all and we really needed to get them out of the door. I allowed myself to be convinced - the one decision I did not make for the BF Evo line, and something I have regretted ever since. What I _should_ have done was tell him to stuff it and send them back. What I learned from that little episode was that you should always Stick to Your Guns.

For the past two and half-ish years, things have been different, as I am now the sole person in charge of running Mongoose. No business partner to placate, I can now do things as I think they should be done. Which isn't to say I cannot cock things up all by myself (Lord Sugar is fond of saying he has made every mistake in business - I have not got that far, but I have made a lot of them), but you at least know who is directly responsible, and I have never been shy of handing my email address out (msprange@mongoosepublishing.com). If you ever have any issues, contact me directly. I _will_ sort you out.

Zond wrote:

In my experience, specifically with poor book binding and my terrible Star Trek miniatures, I found it impossible to get any replacements despite numerous emails.

Drop me a line at the email address above. Whatever issues you have/had, I will make sure get sorted this week.

I haven't purchased anything from Mongoose, as I was "out" for a few years, during the whole SST phase, and haven't really been interested in B5 etc. I am fan of Dredd, and like the cut of this Matt fellow's gib. Openness and communication are a nice change in this hobby. I can only hope out loud that you decide to stick around in some casual capacity after the Kickstarter concludes rather than doing the usual and disappearing forever.

So yeah, I'll definitely be looking closely at this KS. Make it exceptionally good value, and I'll buy it all!

Another voice chiming in to say I'll wait till Mongoose has the game up and running for a bit before I buy in.

I defiantly have trust issues with Mongoose when it comes down to the unsecured loan that kickstarter really is. I need to trust that the company will fulfill its promises and it seems like I'm not alone in feeling that Mongoose is undeserving of that trust.

Now come out with a great product and I'll happily buy it from my LFGS with the knowledge that it could become an unsupported game in a short period of time.

I love Dredd and Matt's openness has done a lot to calm any fears. I'll happily support the Kickstarter so you can prove the doubters wrong.

I cannot really comment on Mongoose track-record.

But I am somewhat baffled by the sudden obsession with "eternal" support.

All CMON Kickstarters so far have been "one-shot" games so far. They may or may not get an extension, but that's it. Mantic's Dreadball is laid out to cover likely "3 seasons" and close again. Etc... . The very idea of Kickstarter is to do (more or less) closed projects.

Personally, I have also always tended to approach my entries into the "long-running" games like 40K as roughly separate projects.

Yes, I played 40K in the 1990s at some point. I also play 40K these days. But they may as well be completely different "closed" games by different companies. My 1990s 40K career and those I have since the late 5th Edition do not share a single miniature, rulebook or even terrain-piece. And between them, I did lots of other "one-shot" projects with games both now defunct and still running.


Most people I know have done it similarly. If you are looking for a game that is supported for ever and all times, GW is likely your best bet. And even that is questionable, since they regularly update both rules and armies, so this sort of eternal continuity is not really a given either.

I honestly don't care if I can play Judge Dredd (or any other game) 20 years from now. I will judge the project on whether or not it promises to give me a fun project for half a year, or a year. Beyond that, I'll likely tire of it even IF Mongoose supports it until the sun grows cold. Hell, I'd rather Mongoose (or whoever) then tries to pitch me some new "shiny".

 Zweischneid wrote:


All CMON Kickstarters so far have been "one-shot" games so far. They may or may not get an extension, but that's it. Mantic's Dreadball is laid out to cover likely "3 seasons" and close again. Etc... . The very idea of Kickstarter is to do (more or less) closed projects.

I would argue that the purpose of both the CMON Kickstarter efforts and Mantic's are more to launch the games than anything else. Sedition Wars, Relic Knights, and Dreadball will all end up at retail where they will each take on a life of their own based upon consumer response and sales. If sales are sufficient, there will be expansions. Soda Pop has alread said that there are things in the Relic Knights rulebook that aren't part of the Kickstarter. So, where would they end up? Expansions.

Dreadball is much the same. If it catches on a retail then you can bet on seeing Seasons 4, 5, 6....

Even the game that really took off on the idea of games on Kickstarter, Alien Frontiers, has since released an expansion.

So, I wouldn't call any of these projects closed.

See i have some issues with the "hey email me today and i will help u" bit because thats doing it since you came under the gun publicly. It seems more as a save face then anything. I am a little biffed that you are just throwing your old business partner under the bus as you are just as responsible for quality for your products. Before i was on the edge with mongoose as i loved B5 and you were a good company back then but now all i see is post reaction and figure pointing instead of trying to ease fears andgrow past them.

 Empchild wrote:
See i have some issues with the "hey email me today and i will help u" bit because thats doing it since you came under the gun publicly. It seems more as a save face then anything.

And if I did not, it would look like I did not care.

Really no way to win that one, eh?

 Empchild wrote:

I am a little biffed that you are just throwing your old business partner under the bus as you are just as responsible for quality for your products.

With respect, that is what I said. I am agreeing with you.

 Empchild wrote:

Before i was on the edge with mongoose as i loved B5 and you were a good company back then but now all i see is post reaction and figure pointing instead of trying to ease fears andgrow past them.

I am not sure there is anything I can or could have said that would change that.

Well, I am very glad that MongooseMatt is here and posting regularly.

He seems to have some thick skin and a willingness to make amends, so I hope he sticks around for a long time.

It is always a welcome pleasure to have company representatives show up, be accountable and give us updates/previews/etc.

I'm really looking forward to this Kickstarter, and if there's a good way to get 'all' the gangs, I'm sure that option will be a big seller!

Matt you didn't take full responsibility you just blammed your partner who isn't here here to defend himself. My issues lie with i have seen a bunch of people say the same thing in this thread and all you have done is come up with excuses instead of just saying "hey in the past we screwed up and hopefully we can change your opinion of us in the future". Actions speak louder then words and sadly yours have soured me to what i usef to think was a great company. I guess thats all i can really say as time will tell.

While I'm not too interested in the product at hand, it's always fascinating to read about the inner workings of the industry, such as why the SST thing fell apart and so forth. Thanks for your posts, Matt.

Hey Matt,

Thanks for posting, ignore the whiners. I'm a big fan of the SST game you guys did; a really first rate set of rules. Unfortunately I only became aware of it years after it went OOP, so the only way to get anything is to keep an eye on ebay and cough some pretty high prices for what you do manage to find.

You mentioned earlier that you were trying to take on 40k, which seems like a mighty big task. If you were starting the SST project now, what would you do differently?

If I could jump in here, I think there are some discussions going past each other.

Matt: nobody here is trying to paint you as a moustache twirling supervillian. Your intent seems, and has always seemed, to put out good hobby product that people enjoy. Nobody thinks you are malicious or lazy.

That said... there have been some issues with some of your product lines. Now, I enjoy hearing the back story, but what you need to realize is that business isn't Little League: it's not how you play the game, but if you win. yeah, you've had some bad beats and trusted some bad advice. There are great reasons for some of the bluders. However... they are still blunders. For a customer, it doesn't matter if he got actively screwed by a con artist, or passively screwed because you picked a bad partner. At the end of the day, he's still holding the bag.

I appreciate you explaining yourself, but you will never satisfy everybody, simply because this is still going out under the Mongoose lable, which is the same label.

My advice? Instead of giving the reasons for past problems, give reasons there won't be problems this time. Own up to the past, and tell us what you've learned and how you will provide a better product.

If you can't do that, hell, even if you can, don't try to convince a guy that feels screwed that he wasn't. Just walk away.

Sound advice there.

Additionally, I think it is time to get this thread on topic - Judge Dredd Kickstarter/miniatures game.

If someone wants to start a thread in Dakka Discussions about Mongoose's past, please feel free to do so, and link to it in here.

Thanks!

 Empchild wrote:
Matt you didn't take full responsibility you just blammed your partner who isn't here here to defend himself. My issues lie with i have seen a bunch of people say the same thing in this thread and all you have done is come up with excuses instead of just saying "hey in the past we screwed up and hopefully we can change your opinion of us in the future". Actions speak louder then words and sadly yours have soured me to what i usef to think was a great company. I guess thats all i can really say as time will tell.

I thought I gave an unreserved apology for it. However, in the past we screwed up and hopefully we can change your opinion of us in the future.

Pistols at Dawn wrote:

You mentioned earlier that you were trying to take on 40k, which seems like a mighty big task. If you were starting the SST project now, what would you do differently?

Oh, good question

First off, I would keep the aggressive release schedule we had, but cut it back to the first three months only, giving you a good range of MI and bugs early on. I would also be tempted (though this is _purely_ with hindsight, we would never have done this at the time) to keep it as pretty much a bugs vs. MI game, and not bring in new races. Even the Skinnies might only have been a periphery range in the first year or two. We had, what, four platoon types (let me count; power suit, exo-suit, pathfinders and light armour) of MI, which pretty much gave you four different types of army. I might have tried to do something similar with the bugs though, to be honest, they were probably best treated as a giant melting pot that players could dip into and take what they wished.

Trying to take on 40k was, on reflection, hubris on our part - however, we could see that other people were buying into that idea too, so the concept of an alternative was not lost.

Mechanics-wise, I have never really been happy with the way cover worked but I always thought it was otherwise a very solid game system - we have certainly used it again since (and, indeed, Judge Dredd - to bring things back on topic - is really the skirmish/campaign version of these rules).

Miniatures-wise, do the brain bug in resin from the start - and if we were doing that in resin, the landing craft could quickly follow. There are things I would want to tweak on the power suit sprues, but that is purely with the benefit of hindsight, not something we could do at the time.

Fold the Pathfinders book into the MI army book. Tempting to do the same with the Light Armour guys but, actually, I thought The Klendathu Invasion was the best book in the range by far. Not that anyone else agreed, it sold the least; but that is the way things go for a games writer

Oh, and let everyone know it is entirely possible a licensed game can end, but we are making sure everything you absolutely need will be out in the first three months!

I'd like to chime in a bit, too.

I was actually part of the Mongoose Infantry demo team and ran dozens of demo games in Virginia and a few tournaments.

I've been wargaming since the early 90's, after Space Hulk 1st edition was full released and right around 40k 2nd edition came out. So, I dunno, we'll say, 20 years.

Starship Troopers had, at launch, and still has, today, the best ruleset for any miniatures game I have ever played, and holy crap I've played a lot. Nothing has come close to it's simple elegance and tactical depth.

Literally within weeks of getting the box set and my first few games, I decided - this was it. Everything I had ever wanted in a wargame. I fervently and ferociously supported the game. It has such a deep and easy system that the other players and I would play a game and then switch sides and play it again; many large games would be done in an hour. You never felt like the dice cheated you - the suredness of your movement made it incredibly tactical. After a few games, I think most people would agree.

It was a nearly perfect product. It was the easiest game to demo because after one or two intro games, people were buying the boxed sets. It sold itself, the rules were *that* simple, and after a 20 minute game, I'd talk to the people I just demo'ed to about the tactical depth with larger armies, larger bug tunnel networks, the importance of covering fire, maximizing your bug move actions to have multiple units come from underground, setting MI reactions for ready/special move (jumping and shooting), etc.

I've never before seen the level of excitement that game generated, and never have since.

But, within a few months, and continuing until it's very rapid and untimely demise, a whole host of problems occurred. These were the main problems that cropped up:

1. This was the big one. Multiple missed release dates, over and over again. The plastic fleet dropships, etc were the biggest ones. Since I was basically running around to several game stores pimping the system, when Mongoose gave us release dates, I told everyone those dates. I kept professional-looking homemade books at several game stores with shots of models, release dates, upcoming pics - whenever we got any bit of info I updated it; usually every week, for over a year. Nothing makes someone skeptical and ultimate turns them off to a company that says one thing and does another. It doesn't matter the excuse. (This is the problem Defiance is having... no matter how good the product or nice the people, you can't keep missing release dates by 3-6months, or, never releasing the product, in the case of many SST units)

2. The hardcover rulebook release. This might not have been a big deal for some, but it destroyed credibility locally. On the forums we were told it would have the errata and clarifications from the softcover. It really sucks telling your local players that it will and then they all preorder it and it's exactly the same as the book they already had, and then you, as the demo team/Mongoose Infantry, kinda get blamed (this basically happened with everything Mongoose did, hurting my own personal reputation, since I was their indirect representative)

3. The army books... really sucked and didn't feel playtested at all. The starter army lists were basically perfect. Other than the Ripplers, I don't think any Arachnid player used anything from the Arachnid army book. The reduction in the points cost of MI changed the near-perfect balance. I think this was done because too many new players had problems playing the MI - which is good. The game is HARD to play unless you use your brain! You would get slaughtered if your Mobile Infantry just stood there. You had to move them around and figure out how to provide covering fire for your own units. That was one of the huge strengths about SST. So the MI got tweaked so new players would be able to win by playing them like Space Marines; but that meant the veteran players would win almost all the time as now their army was 15% cheaper. The extra models they could field because of that swung the almost perfect 50/50 win/loss ratio.

4. The Skinnies. the models were great but the rules felt very unplaytested. Their weaponry was far better than every other army. Their presentation was very cartoony and light, and not a single person locally was interested in them.

5. Dropping everything in favor of pre-paints. Even though that was just an announcement, that killed off almost all local player interest. I went from a dozen people to maybe 3 that still cared, including myself.

6. Dumb releases instead of releases people wanted. No one bought the MI Veterans. No one bought the female MI. We already had plastic multipose MI! Why buy more expensive metal versions of the same thing? EVERYONE wanted just ONE fleet support. Slingshot, Viking, Skyhook, Tac fighter. We had WIP shots for, what, two years, before it collapsed.

I remember the Mongoose fire sale when they were selling the plastic LAMI concepts and the resin masters for the fleet support. That was a piece.

Mongoose was a small company before SST and when it exploded they literally didn't know how to handle it, as far as I can tell. When you've got so many people interested, when you say "coming April" you've now got thousands of people expecting an April release for something. (note: Mongoose will always get props for releasing the 20 metal light infantry as the same cost as the plastic infantry which never materialized. that must have been expensive for them)

My gaming group, to this day, still makes fun of SST as the greatest missed opportunity in the history of gaming. The rules are perfect, most of the models were great - and yes, the Klendathu supplement was fantastic as well. But it was seriously mishandled and THEN the licensing stuff was the final nail.

Starship Troopers was incredible, but it burned me out, and I've never felt so let down by a company. I was mad for such a long time at Mongoose, but I don't have the hatred like Grot 6... I just feel so disappointed, and there is this giant emptiness there. SST was literally on the verge of greatness.

Doug

I think you make a very fair analysis.

judgedoug wrote:

Mongoose was a small company before SST and when it exploded they literally didn't know how to handle it, as far as I can tell.

And I do not think you are wrong there.

However, we are not throwing out the baby with the bath water. As I said before, the Dredd game is based heavily on SST (think of it as the skirmish level version), and we are planning to use the SST rules as our go-to mechanics for most of our 28mm games in the future - including our proposed (kinda got surplanted this year - and next - by Victory at Sea) Vietnam game, and our miniatures collaboration with On the Lamb, which is kinda pencilled in for next year.

The rules set won't be going away.

Ah, I remember travelling across the country for an interview at Mongoose back when it was a tiny place above a (second-hand?) furniture shop. Matt's a great, friendly guy and I'm sure he'll do his best for the playerbase. Not so sure circumstances won't conspire to thwart his attempts though, but can't really blame a guy for that.

Mongoose have a long, long history of producing exemplary licensed products that people eat up, and then the line either becomes unsustainable or the license is revoked or something. The difference with Dredd is that they've had the property forever, they're just capitalising on new interest, so it should be interesting times ahead.

I hope that Dredd takes off in the way it should, because I honestly can't think of any other company I'd want handling something I like as much as JD (And Judge Dredd too)

MongooseMatt wrote:
I think you make a very fair analysis.

judgedoug wrote:

Mongoose was a small company before SST and when it exploded they literally didn't know how to handle it, as far as I can tell.

And I do not think you are wrong there.

However, we are not throwing out the baby with the bath water. As I said before, the Dredd game is based heavily on SST (think of it as the skirmish level version), and we are planning to use the SST rules as our go-to mechanics for most of our 28mm games in the future - including our proposed (kinda got surplanted this year - and next - by Victory at Sea) Vietnam game, and our miniatures collaboration with On the Lamb, which is kinda pencilled in for next year.

The rules set won't be going away.

I hope it never does. SST rules are perfect for it's specific purpose - mobile, shooting guys versus fast tunneling claw guys. Shooting v shooting never felt "right" to me, MI vs MI, or BF:E, or BF:WaW.

To the point where I've been developing a heavily modified version of it for the last four, five years, haha.

So, in 2008 I started with the SST rules, trimmed away all the fat, talked to members of the military, read after-action reports, and turned it into a game that de-emphasizes stat tracking (infantry actually have no numerical stats) and implements actual initiative - and siezing the initiative - where command and control and troop quality and fatigue are far more important than an individual's ability to score a hit with a bullet, totally scalable from 1/600 to 54mm, 1950's into the far future, sacrificing granularity for abstract playability while retaining the flavor, keeping the essence of a tactical game and fixing problems I've seen in other rules like Stargrunt 2, Ambush Alley, BF:E, Tomorrow's War, Dust Warfare, AT-43, 40k, etc (but considering good things they might have done correctly), with ease of adding advanced rules, all with an eye on clear rules for tournament play.. Five years later I've got the best rules system I've ever played, but I may be biased Let me know if you're interested in publishing, haha.

Guess I'll stop derailing the thread now

Dude, send me a copy!

MongooseMatt wrote:
Dude, send me a copy!

ha, PM sent