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 sebster wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
He disneyfied the elves from their traditional roots (who were much more capricious and capable of much more in the nastyness stakes).

You actually see that side of Elves a lot more in the Hobbit, with the Wood Elves as alien and very dangerous. Reading the Hobbit as a kid that actually confused me, as I'd already gotten something of a taste of Elves through D&D and Warhammer, and it felt to my young mind like Tolkien got Elves wrong.

It isn't entirely removed in LotR, but with the Elves now having played a key role in the first defeat of the Sauron, they become a much more noble creation, and somewhat less mysterious.


I think that's where the origin of Warhammer's High Elves and Wood Elves comes from. The Wood Elves are the mysterious, alien woodland creatures like the Hobbit's elves, while the High Elves, complete with their noble defence of the world in times gone by, are the fading power like LotR's Elves.

Actually the Mirkwood elves are a different far more cynical breed of elves than the Galadrim who are Noldor led, though both races are 'Wood Elves' though in Tolkiens terms more accurately Dark Elves. The Galadrim are led by a nobility and royalty of mostly Nordor stock, but the Noldor are nearly extinct at least in Middle-Earth.

The true distinction for Elves are the Eldar (Light Elves) and the Avari (Dark Elves) the former lived under the light of the trees in Valinor, the Avari prefered to remain in the east where Elves were first created and lived under starlight. Thereare sub groups of both races.

The actual 'High elves' are the Vanyar, and they are only found in Valinor, they only once came to middle Earth, to root our Morgoth with the host of the Valar, none stayed. The Noldor are 'Deep Elves' deep refering to the depth of their wisdom and the folly that preceded it, they are not the greatest of the elves because the Vanyar did not make their mistakes, but the Vanyar didnt get to learn from walking the troubnled and heroic path the Nordorim walked. There is a third race of Eldar, the Teleri who are the Sea Elves, they remained by the sea because they were unsure in their hearts about crossing completely over to Valinor.

The Avari groups are mostly geographically based, the most storied being the Sindarin, most Galadrim are of Sindarin origin, with imported Noldor nobility. The Mirkwood elves are pretty much at the bottom of the elf social structure, with imported Sindarin nobility.

 Ratbarf wrote:
You see you keep using objectively where I think you really mean subjectively.

No, I don't mean subjectively. I mean objectively. There is a skill to writing, and it is possible to objectively measure how someone meets up to it.

Much of what you said could apply, in varying peoples perspectives or opinions, to a multitude of great authors, especially Tolstoy or Dickens, but that doesn't make them any less great. That just means that that person thinks they're poor.

Much of it could apply to Dickens. In fact you can find hundreds of articles on line about the failings in Dickens' writings.

That doesn't make the characters Dickens created any less fun, or his sense of place any less wonderful. But, in terms of the technical aspects of writing, the guy wasn't that great. Not as lacking as Tolkien, but certainly with faults of his own.

It's why you can say 'Dickens was wonderful, but verbose'. It's why you can say 'Joyce was a remarkably skilful writer, but very boring'.


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 Orlanth wrote:
Actually the Mirkwood elves are a different far more cynical breed of elves than the Galadrim who are Noldor led, though both races are 'Wood Elves' though in Tolkiens terms more accurately Dark Elves. The Galadrim are led by a nobility and royalty of mostly Nordor stock, but the Noldor are nearly extinct at least in Middle-Earth.

The true distinction for Elves are the Eldar (Light Elves) and the Avari (Dark Elves) the former lived under the light of the trees in Valinor, the Avari prefered to remain in the east where Elves were first created and lived under starlight. Thereare sub groups of both races.

The actual 'High elves' are the Vanyar, and they are only found in Valinor, they only once came to middle Earth, to root our Morgoth with the host of the Valar, none stayed. The Noldor are 'Deep Elves' deep refering to the depth of their wisdom and the folly that preceded it, they are not the greatest of the elves because the Vanyar did not make their mistakes, but the Vanyar didnt get to learn from walking the troubnled and heroic path the Nordorim walked. There is a third race of Eldar, the Teleri who are the Sea Elves, they remained by the sea because they were unsure in their hearts about crossing completely over to Valinor.

The Avari groups are mostly geographically based, the most storied being the Sindarin, most Galadrim are of Sindarin origin, with imported Noldor nobility. The Mirkwood elves are pretty much at the bottom of the elf social structure, with imported Sindarin nobility.

Sure, if one is to get heavily into the background material then you're going to see that stuff. But I was talking about what inspired the elven races within Warhammer, which I don't think borrowed that heavily from the greater mythology of Middle Earth. It always felt to me like it came pretty directly from the races as described and understood by someone who's just read The Hobbit and LotR.

Orcs I believe are taken out from German and Norse Mythology.

 d-usa wrote:
Tolkien also invented the term Eldar if I recall, which meant star people in his writings.

But don't tell GW that...

Eldar was the language of the elves in Tolkien's stories.

So if 'Ent'; which means a race of fully sentient waking trees, is copywrite protected (And Tolkein has exclusive rights over the use of this word to refer to the whole race that way in any literatures he wrote). What are the Tolkein Universe's race names that also being protected by IP laws?

If someone said that Orcs are originated from germanic/norsemen lore then this race is 'public' and not protected by IP laws.
Before GW launched WH40k, did the 'Eldar' also protected?

Hobbit is protected, as would I assume the terms associated with his mythology that didn't have names somewhere else in the world.

So Balrog, Morgoth, Sauron, Manwe <- maybe, and the different pantheons as well as character and place names.

Balrog shown up elsewhere too!. For instance
1. Street Fighter

^ Live action adaptation of 1994, Grand L. Bush played his role
2. Cabal (Korean MMORPG)

^ Fiery demonic boss that is exactly a carbon copy of Tolkein's
so he may not be protected by IP law

Another name that shown up outside Tolkein novels are Moria. in Starcraft (Blizzard's proper) There was a mineral rich planet (and possibly fiery too!) named Moria. also a seat of power to a terran faction. the Kel-Morian combine
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Moria

Mithril seemed to shown up elsewhere too! referring to a shiny metal that has incredibly (and highly sought after) attributes
- Stronger than hard steel/Chobam
- Lighter and more flexible than steel
- highly resistance to rust, wear, tear, acid, heat, and so on.
I don't know if there's any metal on earth having such characteristic but the Titanium (or Scandium) seems to have a similar attirbutes.

Well the Korean thing is likely a case of them just not knowing that the game has it in it. As for Moria and Mithril, I think one would find it somewhat difficult to prove exclusive use of those, I think Mithril may have older means than Tolkien's, and Moria would only be an IP breach if portrayed as a dwarf Mine. A planet called Moria is okay. If IP laws were that strict you wouldn't be able to write fiction novels anymore as pretty much everyname would be subject to someone's IP.

Nope, Mithril originates from Tolkien

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithril#Tolkien