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 Grimtuff wrote:

 rubiksnoob wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.

If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.

Spoken like someone that does not live in the UK. There are numerous accounts of certain foreigners clogging up A&E units due to being unable to either speak English and/or not being signed up with a doctor, so are coming in for something you would go to a GP for.

Jobs are being snapped up by eastern europeans as they'll work for cheaper (whether legal or not WRT minimum wage) This is esp. a problem in Factories/warehouses.

The EU is a double edged sword for the UK, and we keep getting the worse end of it.

horsegak.

The inner city hospitals are getting clogged up because they are being under funded and under staffed. Last time I was in Bristol A&E it was full of white English chavs who'd been fighting each other, they then fought each other again in the waiting room.

Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...

Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 rubiksnoob wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.

If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.

Spoken like someone that does not live in the UK. There are numerous accounts of certain foreigners clogging up A&E units due to being unable to either speak English and/or not being signed up with a doctor, so are coming in for something you would go to a GP for.

Jobs are being snapped up by eastern europeans as they'll work for cheaper (whether legal or not WRT minimum wage) This is esp. a problem in Factories/warehouses.

The EU is a double edged sword for the UK, and we keep getting the worse end of it.

horsegak.

The inner city hospitals are getting clogged up because they are being under funded and under staffed. Last time I was in Bristol A&E it was full of white English chavs who'd been fighting each other, they then fought each other again in the waiting room.

Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...

Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.

I agree with the second point. The Chavs do not want the jobs yet complain when they're snapped up by Johnny Foreigner. But is this the solution? It's not IMO, as we're caught in some kind of downward spiral we cannot get out of.

We've made ourselves at risk of immigrants by Blair being all open door during his tenure. "Hoisted by one's own petard" as it were.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Grimtuff, you have really got bugger all evidence that you're getting "the worse end of it".

Other than years of anecdotal evidence? No. But having lived in this country for 28 years I think I have quite an informed opinion of how we've changed for the worse.

Well I've lived in this country for the same length of time and don't agree with your 'informed' opinion.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

horsegak.
The inner city hospitals are getting clogged up because they are being under funded and under staffed. Last time I was in Bristol A&E it was full of white English chavs who'd been fighting each other, they then fought each other again in the waiting room.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...
Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.

I agree with the second point. The Chavs do not want the jobs yet complain when they're snapped up by Johnny Foreigner. But is this the solution? It's not IMO, as we're caught in some kind of downward spiral we cannot get out of.

We've made ourselves at risk of immigrants by Blair being all open door during his tenure. "Hoisted by one's own petard" as it were.

At risk of immigrants what exactly?

Doing what the Romans did?

Doing what the Saxons did?

Doing what the Normans did?

Doing what the Vikings did?

We become so focused on the evil of Islamification that we lose focus on the rest. A good proportion of people moving to the UK come into the country and work. Take a look at the doctors in the next hospital you visit... Our's is a nation that has benefited greatly from integration and shared culture. Remember SS Empire Windrush and the 'streets of blood'?

We don't need to kick out 'foreigners', thank you Adam Sutler... We need to change the benefit system to facilitate working for your benefits and we need to break the back of generational benefits as a career choice. We also need to elevate our working class and correctly tax our most wealthy...

 Cheesecat wrote:
Oh OK, that makes sense I can see why people would dislike that (including myself).

Exceptions made for injured or ill travelers of course.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

horsegak.
The inner city hospitals are getting clogged up because they are being under funded and under staffed. Last time I was in Bristol A&E it was full of white English chavs who'd been fighting each other, they then fought each other again in the waiting room.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...
Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.

I agree with the second point. The Chavs do not want the jobs yet complain when they're snapped up by Johnny Foreigner. But is this the solution? It's not IMO, as we're caught in some kind of downward spiral we cannot get out of.

We've made ourselves at risk of immigrants by Blair being all open door during his tenure. "Hoisted by one's own petard" as it were.

We don't need to kick out 'foreigners', thank you Adam Sutler... We need to change the benefit system to facilitate working for your benefits and we need to break the back of generational benefits as a career choice. We also need to elevate our working class and correctly tax our most wealthy...

I agree. What I'm saying is the government let in tons of foreigners quite literally by the busload to fill the fact certain lazy arse members of the working class (who do not consider themselves that, as they do not "work". ) are more than happy to sponge off benefits. These same individuals then complain that the Jeffs are nicking their jobs. . I forget who suggested it on here ages ago but the benefit system should be a system of vouchers you can exchange for essentials (such as shopping). Then it won't all be spent on fags and booze.

The UK letting in tons of eastern europeans as a short term solution to the fact no-one wants those jobs just has not worked long term IMO. Other cultures have successfully integrated with ours, given time, maybe they will too. But to keep having more and more come in (where it got so much of a problem Poland had practically zero builders for several new stadiums for Euro 2012) just exacerbates the issues certain areas of the UK (East Anglia, (mainly Peterborough), Hull, Doncaster etc.) are having with a perceived sheer weight of immigrants.

 Pacific wrote:
Being young and foolish (well, just the latter part) I happened to get into a relationship, and fall in love (yes.. even Squats can fall in love!) with a girl while I was living and working abroad.

...

But just thought I would write about what it's like to be effected by these harsh new immigration laws, and how they have no doubt broken quite a few hearts and, without being overly dramatic, destroyed a fair few lives. I'm going to write to my MP about it regardless, but it does seem a shame that the government can't strike some kind of happy medium between labour (opening the floodgates) and the Conservatives (who have politicked it to the extreme, and turned the UK into a practical fortress to anyone not riding a bike down the channel tunnel or rowing across the channel).

I have been through similar types of issues myself. I don't want to go into too much detail, but my experiences left me feeling betrayed by my country of origin (the UK). My outcome was different from yours: I left the country a few years ago.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 rubiksnoob wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.

If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.

Spoken like someone that does not live in the UK. There are numerous accounts of certain foreigners clogging up A&E units due to being unable to either speak English and/or not being signed up with a doctor, so are coming in for something you would go to a GP for.

Jobs are being snapped up by eastern europeans as they'll work for cheaper (whether legal or not WRT minimum wage) This is esp. a problem in Factories/warehouses.

The EU is a double edged sword for the UK, and we keep getting the worse end of it.

You're right, it's actually spoken like someone who lives in a country with incredibly similar immigration problems, and which, in fact, more people immigrate to than to the UK. If they immigrated legally, and have become citizens, they are no less entitled to all the benefits that go with than you are. Simple as that. The fact that you were born a citizen and they immigrated makes no difference in that regard.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

I agree with the second point. The Chavs do not want the jobs yet complain when they're snapped up by Johnny Foreigner. But is this the solution? It's not IMO, as we're caught in some kind of downward spiral we cannot get out of.

We've made ourselves at risk of immigrants by Blair being all open door during his tenure. "Hoisted by one's own petard" as it were.

We don't need to kick out 'foreigners', thank you Adam Sutler... We need to change the benefit system to facilitate working for your benefits and we need to break the back of generational benefits as a career choice. We also need to elevate our working class and correctly tax our most wealthy...

I agree. What I'm saying is the government let in tons of foreigners quite literally by the busload to fill the fact certain lazy arse members of the working class (who do not consider themselves that, as they do not "work". ) are more than happy to sponge off benefits. These same individuals then complain that the Jeffs are nicking their jobs. . I forget who suggested it on here ages ago but the benefit system should be a system of vouchers you can exchange for essentials (such as shopping). Then it won't all be spent on fags and booze.

The UK letting in tons of eastern europeans as a short term solution to the fact no-one wants those jobs just has not worked long term IMO. Other cultures have successfully integrated with ours, given time, maybe they will too. But to keep having more and more come in (where it got so much of a problem Poland had practically zero builders for several new stadiums for Euro 2012) just exacerbates the issues certain areas of the UK (East Anglia, (mainly Peterborough), Hull, Doncaster etc.) are having with a perceived sheer weight of immigrants.

And what I'm saying is that 'OMG, the insert racial slur here are taking over our jobs and going to destroy our way of life!!' fearmongering has ever been thus with our island nation, from the Irish coming to Liverpool to the Russian Jews fleeing persecution, they are just British now.

All this has happened before and all this will happen again and the Ravens are still in The Tower...

I do believe we should be taking a stronger stance on the more vocal and demanding of the Islamic elements and their vision and attitude towards the nation they have come to. But, ultimately, I think they are fighting a loosing battle as well, because capitalism, mobile phones, pints and multimedia are far more attractive than frothy mouthed lunacy and I remain hopeful that their more unpleasant side will die out through time, integration and good old fashioned greed and breeding out.

See, if you had good hard working Spanish speaking immigrants from Central America you wouldn't have these problems.

But is that norm for immigration though? I mean if the UK is getting loads of foreigners that are causing nothing but trouble then you would have a point but modern immigration is nowhere as horrible as the assimilation of Native culture and in fact I would assume most modern immigrants

are well behaving, law-abiding citizens.

No it isn't, but what I'm saying is that when people think of the worst possible scenario of immigration they think of the Native Americans, and fear that something similar will happen to them.

Yeah, but like the Amish and other similar groups, they're destined to have small numbers relative to the greater population. One of the quirks of highly insular groups is that they need to be attached to a larger, tolerant and cosmopolitan population to be viable.

Not Menonites or Hutterites. The former don't exactly use a lot of what a cosmopolitan society has to offer, and the latter live in closed colonies.

Oh, and populations always grow exponentially. Exponential just means the current value determines the future growth.

I know, what I meant is that they're birth rate is around 9 children per female. Their population grows at a rate that is four times that then the rest of the nation.

I think the complaint is illegals and other nonpayers being able to skip the line and get health care in England free of charge, and then legal immigrants got muddled in by more or less accident.

There was a study done on this in Canada. Turns out the average wait time for a hip replacement is 15 weeks for immigrants and 40 something weeks for born heres. Though the reason that the study gave for it was that the immigrants were much much more proactive in attempting to get their wait time shortened. The born heres pretty much just accepted their fate on the matter and waited.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Other than years of anecdotal evidence? No. But having lived in this country for 28 years I think I have quite an informed opinion of how we've changed for the worse.

I have been living in this country for 33 and I have an informed opinion that contradicts yours.

Its funny how we have apparently been "changing for the worse" for centuries.

 Ratbarf wrote:
Not Menonites or Hutterites. The former don't exactly use a lot of what a cosmopolitan society has to offer, and the latter live in closed colonies.

If they're anything like the Amish then they do. They might socialise entirely among themselves, but they still trade with the outside world, selling their surplus goods for stuff that their small population just doesn't have the base to make by itself.

Such populations are basically dependant on a cosmopolitan outside world to allow them to engage only on their own terms.

I know, what I meant is that they're birth rate is around 9 children per female. Their population grows at a rate that is four times that then the rest of the nation.

Fair enough, I was just being a smart arse really

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...

Why are those pay and conditions so bad that only foreigners will take them? The middle class refuse to stomach the price inflation nessesary to bridge wealth inequality (i.e. the overwealming majority of GDP growth over the past 20 years going into the pockets of the upper middle class), so migrants are nessesary.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.

Britain is not at risk from immigrants, it's at risk from multi-culturalism. There is no such thing as "Britishness" other than some vague media bs about togetherness and being self-effacing.

 sebster wrote:
If they're anything like the Amish then they do. They might socialise entirely among themselves, but they still trade with the outside world, selling their surplus goods for stuff that their small population just doesn't have the base to make by itself.

Such populations are basically dependant on a cosmopolitan outside world to allow them to engage only on their own terms.

I wouldn't say so much for either. Both groups simply use said cosmopolitan for the getting of things that would be harder, but not impossible, to get themselves. And when they do they usually do it as a community so only a few people are exposed.

Fair enough, I was just being a smart arse really

What I'm going on though is that if the birth rates continue, which it would seem the should considering they haven't moved much since they started tracking them, it's only time before they become the majority population.

Look at what the Orthodox Jew's high birthrate is meaning for Israel. They're looking at a population base that under current rules doesn't pay taxes, doesn't work, and doesn't join the military, becoming the majority population inside of 50 years.

There is a very real possibility of indigenous populations being bred out of majority status because they have such a low comparable birth rate.

Are conditions and pay that bad? I have to say that it doesn't look that way.

Some work is neccesarly hard, dirty, back breaking. Look at the agricultural work to get in produce like potatoes, cabbages etc,

What about production and factory wqork? repetitive, mind numbing (possibly).

Hard work is, well, hard and sometimes tough.

I know a lot of agency owners who advertise well paying jobs who only see Immigrants through their doors. Those who are prepared to work mind numbing jobs for above minimum wage.

 rubiksnoob wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland. That sort of behaviour is basically a huge 'feth you' to the native population - it's tantamount to saying 'We have no interest in your customs, your culture, or your country.

If Polish people want to eat Polish food, speak the Polish language, and hang out with Polish people, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to do so just because they live somewhere other than Poland. If you don't like it, then go hang out somewhere where you can eat British food (if you're into culinary masochism), speak English, and hang out with other British people. And if it turns out that there is nowhere left that you can go without Polish influence following you, then guess what! The culture's changed. Move on.

Nope, sorry, doesn't work like that. This is my country, my culture, and I have every right to defend it. The numbers show that the face of Britain is changing - it's something that people on the ground have felt for the last ten years. It's certainly palpable in a city like London, a city I've been visiting regularly for around 8-9 years, and this is now borne out by the statistical evidence. The knee-jerk liberals will just have to accept that our country is changing, that people have legitimate grievances with this, and that ignoring them is dangerous. It's not just down to xenophobia, but I guess if all you have is a hammer...

And honestly, if you're that easily offended you're just looking for things to be upset at. It's a bit silly.

Son, I'll thank you not to be a condescending arse. You don't live here, you've never lived here and you don't know what it's like to live here. Your liberalism may impress the girls on campus but you shouldn't be so quick to judge a situation, and people, you clearly have little knowledge of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sebster wrote:

Steve steveson wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland.

Yeah, if you want to chase better economic opportunities that means your honour bound to never eat peroghis again.

Y'know, you're not as witty as you think you are. You know full well that's not what I'm saying. I'm speaking to the need of some immigrant populations to envelop themselves in a cultural bubble in order not to engage with their host country. It's an insult when we Brits do it overseas and an insult when people do it here. I'm not in favour of it in either case.

I mean, I get the idea about integration and that people should be encouraged to become part of the greater community, but that they shouldn't shop at speciality stores that offer the food they've grown up with?

No, it's more than that. And actually, mainstream UK supermarkets are very good indeed at catering for speciality ethnic foodstuffs, comparable with other countries I've visited. In any case, you're trivialising what I said. It's not just about ethnic food shops - there's a whole swathe of businesses in my area that cater only to Poles, the oddest of which has be Polish barbers. Afro-Carribean specialists I can understand, but Polish people's hair is exactly the same as ours! Why are they so keen to insulate themselves from the rest of us?

 Albatross wrote:
No, it's more than that. And actually, mainstream UK supermarkets are very good indeed at catering for speciality ethnic foodstuffs, comparable with other countries I've visited. In any case, you're trivialising what I said. It's not just about ethnic food shops - there's a whole swathe of businesses in my area that cater only to Poles, the oddest of which has be Polish barbers. Afro-Carribean specialists I can understand, but Polish people's hair is exactly the same as ours! Why are they so keen to insulate themselves from the rest of us?

Maybe they've read too much Jared Diamond and believe the UK got to its position of comparative economic superiority purely through luck rather than making better cultural and policy decisions, and thus see no need to assimilate.

 Albatross wrote:
The numbers show that the face of Britain is changing - it's something that people on the ground have felt for the last ten years. It's certainly palpable in a city like London, a city I've been visiting regularly for around 8-9 years, and this is now borne out by the statistical evidence.

How is this new? Cultures and countries will always change and adapt to their surroundings. Fighting change simply because it is change is both foolish and ultimately fruitless.

The driving force of histroy is luck Seaward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albatross wrote:

Son, I'll thank you not to be a condescending arse. You don't live here, you've never lived here and you don't know what it's like to live here.

I have and I also find it silly.

 Testify wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...

Why are those pay and conditions so bad that only foreigners will take them? The middle class refuse to stomach the price inflation nessesary to bridge wealth inequality (i.e. the overwealming majority of GDP growth over the past 20 years going into the pockets of the upper middle class), so migrants are nessesary.

No, the super rich refuse to suffer higher wages that would dent their profit margin. Here in the US, the 6 family members who own Walmart (and ASDA...) are richer than the entire bottom 30% of this continent sized nation combined... It's intolerable and it won't last forever, if they don't take steps to remedy the rapid distancing, well, the French learned that lesson a time ago.
The middle class is an endangered species, it peaked in the 50s - 80s and has been dying back ever since, if we don't raise up the lower end and protect the middle, well the feudal system will be back for a time, but without religion to dominate them and with the media showing them all the things they should want and need, the serfs won't be so cowed this time.

 Testify wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.

Britain is not at risk from immigrants, it's at risk from multi-culturalism. There is no such thing as "Britishness" other than some vague media bs about togetherness and being self-effacing.

Multiculturalism has, historically, occurred, been objected too and then absorbed. Look at the integration of Jamaicans or the Polish following WW2, there is a slight hiccup, some people worry and then nobody notices any more.

A tale for you.

Some time ago I was drinking with friends in a pub called 'The Swordfish' in Newlyn, Cornwall. It was a very rough place in those days, fisherman's pub so a lot of drugs and fights.
We were leaving and stood outside was a skinhead. He was handing out leaflets about the rise of immigrants in England. He saw that I too had a short haircut and shouted to me to rise up and stop the flood.

I wandered over with my mates and took the leaflet and read over it a bit, then I said aloud 'Bastards, fething bastards, they come over here, take our housing, take our jobs and take our women... I Fething hate them.' Skinhead nodded enthusiastically and said in his thick brummie accent 'Yes mate, yes!!! You need to sign up!' and I smiled, fairly unpleasantly to him and said.
'fething English, they come over the Tamar, they take our jobs, they take our houses, they take our women... Where you from boy?'

'Eh?' he said, not quite grasping the point.

'Where you from boy, you don't have a Cornish accent, where you from?'

'Birmingham, I'm English like you!' eyeing the gathering of Cornish fishermen grinning at him.

'I'm not fething English, Englander and you ain't in England, you should feth off to your own country... fething saxon bastard!'

He was getting uncomfortable at that point, being surrounded by a small mob of yokel bastards, the jeering starting up and he left with his silly leaflets. He didn't get the point or the daftness of his standing there telling people who'd been a different country up until a couple of hundred years ago that they should be proud to be English and get rid of the menacing immigrant to keep their distinct 'Britishness' (which doubtless was all about 'Englishness' and a narrow view of it at that).

There is Britishness, it's a constantly shifting and mutable thing. It will continue to change and it's enriched with new additions, if they integrate. I believe even the most ghettoized groups cannot hold that back, it just takes longer for them to join the masses.

As we are telling anecdotes here is mine. My culture is already dead (or as near as damn it). What killed it was simple economics and I accept that as an inevitable consequence of the modern world

I am from the North west Highlands who had (and still has in some places) a proud culture going back millenia (depending how you measure it) with its own language and customs. When I was in Primary school this culture was ailing but still alive where as now it is effectively dead, for example myself and my sister represent the first generation of my family who can't speak Gaelic.

While immigration did help to kill it off it wasn't the real reason. The immigrants were English (who were actually referred to as white settlers) who bought empty houses or built new ones on empty crofts. The reason why those crofts were empty though is that there is simply no money in the Highlands; few natural resources and little industry aside from fishing and tourism (both of which are fickle). People simply left the area as soon as they finished school; in my class of 36 I think 2 stayed, the rest now live all over the world. The end result of this is that there is an elderly local population while a signifcant proportion of working age people 'emigrated' there, I walked through the town las summer and I only recognised 3 people. I accept this as a natural consequence of the mobile nature of the modern world and to be honest the situation in the UK as a whole is no where near as extreme.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

horsegak.
The inner city hospitals are getting clogged up because they are being under funded and under staffed. Last time I was in Bristol A&E it was full of white English chavs who'd been fighting each other, they then fought each other again in the waiting room.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...
Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.

I agree with the second point. The Chavs do not want the jobs yet complain when they're snapped up by Johnny Foreigner. But is this the solution? It's not IMO, as we're caught in some kind of downward spiral we cannot get out of.

We've made ourselves at risk of immigrants by Blair being all open door during his tenure. "Hoisted by one's own petard" as it were.

At risk of immigrants what exactly?

Doing what the Romans did?

Doing what the Saxons did?

Doing what the Normans did?

Doing what the Vikings did?

We become so focused on the evil of Islamification that we lose focus on the rest. A good proportion of people moving to the UK come into the country and work. Take a look at the doctors in the next hospital you visit... Our's is a nation that has benefited greatly from integration and shared culture. Remember SS Empire Windrush and the 'streets of blood'?

We don't need to kick out 'foreigners', thank you Adam Sutler... We need to change the benefit system to facilitate working for your benefits and we need to break the back of generational benefits as a career choice. We also need to elevate our working class and correctly tax our most wealthy...

Quoted for truth and exaltation.

Potatoes and cabbages are harvested by machine.

You know what really climbs my prick? Folks who eat fish but don't work. Takin' it out of good people's mouths, they are. My memories of britain are fuzzy, but apparently everyone who lives there is a cartoon and it may not exist as a real location/society.

I imagine sebster's thoughts on how witty he is are fairly accurate and good humored.

pelicaniforce wrote:
You know what really climbs my prick? Folks who eat fish but don't work. Takin' it out of good people's mouths, they are. My memories of britain are fuzzy, but apparently everyone who lives there is a cartoon and it may not exist as a real location/society.

I imagine sebster's thoughts on how witty he is are fairly accurate and good humored.

Just sayin.

 Ratbarf wrote:
I wouldn't say so much for either. Both groups simply use said cosmopolitan for the getting of things that would be harder, but not impossible, to get themselves. And when they do they usually do it as a community so only a few people are exposed.

Not just harder, but in many cases impossible. It simply isn't practical to have certains items built or their various parts sourced within a small population base. They would have to do without, and that would make life significantly tougher.

And the point has nothing to do with how much of the population is exposed. It's about the fact that such insular communities with tight standards of practice need a more open outside world to be viable.

What I'm going on though is that if the birth rates continue, which it would seem the should considering they haven't moved much since they started tracking them, it's only time before they become the majority population.

Look at what the Orthodox Jew's high birthrate is meaning for Israel. They're looking at a population base that under current rules doesn't pay taxes, doesn't work, and doesn't join the military, becoming the majority population inside of 50 years.

There is a very real possibility of indigenous populations being bred out of majority status because they have such a low comparable birth rate.

"My nephew grew an inch and a half in the last 3 months, and if this continues he'll be over 8 foot by his 12th birthday. What is being done to prevent this new era of giant tweens?"

My point being that too often in forecasts like this people look at a single short term trend, and project that out into infinity without any consideration for how likely it is that the trend is laying the seeds of its own destruction. These insular communities with vast growth rates simply can't sustain current practices if they come to represent a much greater percentage of the population. They will have to either change their practices or curb their growth rate.

Similarly, in Israel the Orthodox Jews, dependant on the rest of the population for defence and tax revenue, will either have to begin contributing or stop expanding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albatross wrote:
Y'know, you're not as witty as you think you are. You know full well that's not what I'm saying.

I honestly didn't. It really did read to me like you had a particular beef, alongside a series of other complaints, with specialty supermarkets.

Now, if your problem is with the broader idea of migrants looking to live in a cultural bubble, then I generally agree with you. That's why, in my response to you, I went on to state exactly that.

No, it's more than that. And actually, mainstream UK supermarkets are very good indeed at catering for speciality ethnic foodstuffs, comparable with other countries I've visited. In any case, you're trivialising what I said. It's not just about ethnic food shops - there's a whole swathe of businesses in my area that cater only to Poles, the oddest of which has be Polish barbers. Afro-Carribean specialists I can understand, but Polish people's hair is exactly the same as ours! Why are they so keen to insulate themselves from the rest of us?

I can's speak for the barber's shops, that does sound pretty whacky. But on the ethnic food, I can tell you that being married to the daughter of migrants, it's been a real eye opener. I used to think the variety of spices and other stuff in supermarkets was pretty good, but having now been to some specialty stores I can tell you there's a hell of a lot more out there. It's like if I went to live in Thailand, and there was an ethnic section with Orange Marmalade on the shelf. Locals might think that was pretty good, because they'd have no idea there was hundreds of different types of marmalade out there, and then hundreds of things besides Marmalade that we like to put on our toast.

A lot of the problem with housing here is the amount of people who insist on living alone.
The aging elderly might be better off moving in with a mate, and sharing their heating subsidy.
The kids hit 18, or leave university, and want a house of their own. Houseshare for a bit, and get somewhere when you hitch up with someone...

So, having to build lots of houses is little to do with the immigration 'problem'.
It's having an affect, but how many people come to the UK, get a job good enough to pay the rent on a 2-bed flat, and move their family over? It's probably similar to families moving out of the country, so evens out in the end.

If 13% are foreign-born, how many who were born here have moved away?
It is just showing the world is more mobile these days?

I'm not worried about the UK becoming more diversified.

As for the Polish barbers shop, half of the experience of getting your hair cut is the banter. If your barber can't speak your language, you'll end up with a mullet, and wonder why haircuts take longer these days...

Religion is what gets me.
We're multi-cultural that's fine but don't preach you hate or your outdated ideal here.

Saying you like bacon in someplaces causes a rift between people.
I like new culture but when you expect us to change ours and you kick ours to the side you can go home.

Be respectful of our culture and we will be fine with yours.

I quite like all these different food shops and things appearing.

Britain has always been welcoming to new cultures, because in the end they make us stronger. The British culture we have today has been cobbled together from the best bits of so many other cultures dating back several thousand years that it's almost impossible to point to any single defining aspect of 'Britishness' and conclude that it doesn't have roots in another foreign idea. Together they create a stronger and more flexible society - one that is based on toleration, respect, politeness and the ability to change for the better.

It's also worth noting foreign-born doesn't necessarily mean foreign. I'm a case in point - I'm half-Asian, and was born in Africa. I also only have British nationality, speak only English fluently, and know this is the best damn nation and culture in the world!